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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Technical Forums > AUDIO/VIDEO + BLUETOOTH + Electronics/Alarm/Software > SWS 8 upgrade with MTX amp!



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      05-04-2008, 09:33 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Technic View Post
Just replacing the OEM subs with the current SWS-8 subs without an aftermarket amp will in effect reduce the effective power of the HiFi OEM amp sub outputs in half, as the SWS-8 are 4 ohms subs; the OEM subs are 2 ohms.

In other words, you will hear much less bass with the SWS-8 than with the OEM subs that you have right now. This will be a downgrade.

This doesn't apply to the Logic7 system, as its OEM subs are 4 ohms. SWS-8 in 2 ohms version are expected to be offered soon.
so, installing a pair of sws-8's into a Logic7 system would result in improvement?

i just want to know because i havent got an amp yet, and i want to put it in untill i purchase an amp.

thanks!
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      05-04-2008, 09:56 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imaznumkay View Post
so, installing a pair of sws-8's into a Logic7 system would result in improvement?

i just want to know because i havent got an amp yet, and i want to put it in untill i purchase an amp.

thanks!
Probably not, since the OEM amp does not have enough power to drive them
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      05-05-2008, 02:34 AM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by purity View Post
Technic,

if we try to custom made a sub box under the seat for SWS-10,
do you suggest making it ported like the original OEM BMW 8in sub box, or make it a sealed one...

and have you ever compared the SWS-10 and the Pioneer 10" shallow sub? Which one is better?

I remember reading your post somewhere in here saying that SWS-8 and Pioneer 8" shallow sub.On that post you prefer the SWS-8 over the Pioneer with the same size...
but how about SWS-10 and Pioneer 10"?

Thanks
Hi

I don't know if a shallow 10" will fit under the seats with a custom box, although an audio shop fitted a Morel 9" driver in a custom box there:


http://www.sound-in-motion.com/installs/bmw_330xi.html

However, they used those 9" drivers as mid bass and not subs (they have a 10" in the trunk for that).

As for using the existing OEM ports in a project like this, I would say no, as we don't know the actual characteristics of that port and we would be using a 10" in a custom box and not the OEM enclosure with an 8". So to get better control of the response of that 10" you would be using either a sealed or a ported box based on what you want out of those 10s", and in the case of ported, how and where you want to put that port in the custom box under the seat for maximum effect.

I have not have the chance yet of getting a SWS-10 and compare it with the Pioneer 10".

I still think that the best sound set up is having the SWS-8 under the seats using the OEM enclosures and a 10" sub in the trunk, for a nice blend of mid/sub bass. However, if you can get 2 10"s under the seats in a custom enclosure that could be something else, although it will be necessary to set the 10"s as mid/sub bass as the 4" mid drivers are too small to go that low for an impact (the reason of that professional setup with 9" drivers and a separate sub), IMO.

The problem with car audio is that sometimes you will need a lot of money to set your system up with several different components -trial and error- the way you would like it...
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      05-05-2008, 02:43 AM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imaznumkay View Post
so, installing a pair of sws-8's into a Logic7 system would result in improvement?

i just want to know because i havent got an amp yet, and i want to put it in untill i purchase an amp.

thanks!
Perhaps a slight improvement, as the Earthquake people said that their SWS-8 are better drivers than even the OEM 8" in the Individual Audio system (higher performing 8" than the Logic7 subs). You could just replace the OEM subs with the SWS-8 and see if you like them powered with the OEM amp; if you feel that they would be better with extra power then you can always add an amp later. IMO, most probably you will add that amp later.

There's no problem on going in stages; IMO, actually is better as you are learning more this way because you will be comparing in sections -drivers and power output- and making your own assessments on what it is specifically better for your set up. This is better than replacing two components at the same time and then not knowing which one made the most difference, if any.
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      05-05-2008, 09:23 AM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by purity View Post
Hi Technic,
thanks for your reply...

Yes, I also read that post about the 9in morel too,
but from the morel spec, it look like that so called morel sub, does not have enough cone travel/throw/stroke to produce enough punch,
the SWS even the 8in one have much longer cone travel... then the 9in Morel sub...
So I do not really like it... plus I think they are thicker then SWS-10in sub...

I read on this forum long time ago,
some one suggest that the 8in OEM box port,
is actually to make the use of empty rooms in the chassis of the car.
so the real volume of the box is bigger
(oem box volume + empty rooms in the chassis).

Is this true Technic?

That is why, I am thinking if we design the custom box for the 10in shallow sub, also utilizing the similar port as the oem box, it also able to use the extra volume from the car chassis...

I also think if we can somehow put TWO of the SWS-10 sub, under each front seat, we do not need to use extra sub in the back.

Especially since the E90 in my country Indonesia, does not come with ski opening, or even fold down rear seat.So a sound from sub in the trunk can not easily penetrated into the cabin.
(In Indonesia, the car only come in one configuration, choose by BMW of Indonesia, and no option offered (except some retrofit package))
Yes, the OEM enclosure uses the door sills as ports.

Checking the dimensions of that Morel 9" and the photo of that nice box for it fitting into the OEM enclosure spot, I would say that -if done right- you could fit a pair of SWS-10 under the front seats with a custom sealed box of .6 cu.ft./ported volume is .8 cu.ft. Those Morels in the photo are supposed to be in a box of around 1.14 cu.ft. (recommended), so there is plenty of space there.

http://www.morelhifi.com/products/mo...mosw.html#SPEC

The SWS-10 are slightly shallower than the Morels (by just .12") but its cutout is wider by 1.2", so the fit looks good in paper.

Quote:
I agree with you about the need to augment the Midbass since the 4in midrange is to small to produce meaningfull midbass.
So I also prefer to have the SWS-10 sub low pass crossovered at above 80hz preferably around 100hz-120hz max,
would be perfect to help the 4in midrange,
I also want the under seat sub to be configured as Stereo Sub.
So it would be more like 2channel STEREO home speaker configuration.This should be great for staging, as all full range sound come from the front ,and no sub sound coming from the rear.

and using a Time Delay Processor, should help to make the sound coming from rear seat,door panel, and tweeter housing sound coherence...

I remember 10 or 15 years ago, a guy install a B&W Matrix 800 woofer speaker as a front woofer in 5 series BMW.That is amazing.I think he even make it that the front fender can be taken off easily...
and if I am not wrong, the midrange and the tweeter are from B&W Silver Signature bookshelf speaker...

Anyway, I see that the SWS-10 mounting depth is only
2 11/16inchs... so it is very thin...

another "unproven" idea is if we could somehow using spacer to install the 6.5in SWS behind the grill of the oem doorpanel4in midrange...
since the 6.5in SWS is so thin...

the question is, does the SWS make good sound for midrange ??? hmmm

I think that a better fit for a nice mid bass replacement of the OEM 4" drivers could be that 5" Morel woofer shown in the link above. A 6.5" will be too big in that spot.
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      05-05-2008, 09:34 AM   #94
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Technics,

the Morel 5" woofer have 60mm of mounting depth,
if I am not wrong, most poster here say maximum mounting depth of around 52mm to 55mm...

Have not measure it my self though...
but at 60mm plus some adaptor to fit the flange mounting hole,
this 5in might not fit... unless we mounted infront of the door panel and add some spacer, and not behind the original grill...

by the way, if you do the under the seat sub custom enclosure for SWS-10, would you prefer to make it :
a. sealed or
b. ported or
c. ported in the same direction as the original box?

Thanks
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      05-05-2008, 10:19 AM   #95
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You are correct... the max depth should be 55mm. As for the SWS-10, I would go with sealed, as the enclosure should be as smaller as possible.

FYI: you should start you own thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by purity View Post
Technics,

the Morel 5" woofer have 60mm of mounting depth,
if I am not wrong, most poster here say maximum mounting depth of around 52mm to 55mm...


Have not measure it my self though...
but at 60mm plus some adaptor to fit the flange mounting hole,
this 5in might not fit... unless we mounted infront of the door panel and add some spacer, and not behind the original grill...

by the way, if you do the under the seat sub custom enclosure for SWS-10, would you prefer to make it :
a. sealed or
b. ported or
c. ported in the same direction as the original box?

Thanks
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      05-05-2008, 10:31 AM   #96
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oh,
to the thread starter,
I am sorry for hijacking the thread...

I got carried a way...by the interesting discussion here
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      05-05-2008, 11:43 AM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Technic View Post
I have not tested a 10W6 sub in an enclosure to be giving you an honest/factual answer. However, I tested the SWS-8 and the 10" TS-SW1041D Pioneer shallow sub, both in .65 cu.ft. enclosures and that single Pioneer simply blows away two SWS-8 in their enclosures with their deep bass.

The main difference between the two is that the Pioneer doesn't "complain" when fed frequencies below 32 Hz, as the SWS-8 does. So I can feel more bass better at medium to high volume.

Unless there is a particular 8" subs somewhere that performs better than a 10", under the same conditions a 10" will always outperform an 8".

Check the specs:

10W6: http://mobile.jlaudio.com/pdfs/8-12W6_BDS.pdf
SWS-8: http://www.earthquakesound.com/IMAGE...sws_manual.pdf

Don't get me wrong, the SWS-8 does its job in the 8" bracket. But compared with a 10" there's no comparison. That's the reason that there is a SWS-10... up to a SWS-15.

Thanks for your answer

I realized after checking the specs for the 10W6 that I donít have enough power to drive it properly,

Since Iím trying not to start spending again, I looked at what I have lying around and my choices are

Subs:
Focal 27H 11Ē sub
JL 10W3 V2
SWS-8

Amp
Xtant 2200i (400W Rms)
Total Audio T-500 (500WRmsfor the SWS) or 350W for the others

Checking the specs of all 3 models of subs I see that the frequency response and Fs are pretty similar on all 3 , I understand that the larger displacement of a 10 or 11 inches speaker would generate lower frequencies , but for me 30hz is low enough,

I had the 10W3 in my trunk in my E46 and it was ok, I later replaced that with a pair of 27H on the rear shelf in IB and that was much better and satisfying

What I was wondering now is since the SWS-8s are in the cabin under the seat and also since their Fs is so similar to the Focals should I expect similar result especially with the amount of power I can supply them with (500W)

To the OP, Did you have Logic7 or standard HiFi?
And on a scale of 1-10 how much improvement do you feel the upgrade has given you?
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      05-05-2008, 01:11 PM   #98
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Holy crap, from a SWS8 diy install to a 9in sub/10in sub conversation. LOL. But I gotta hand it to you Technic, you know your shit.
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      05-18-2008, 05:30 PM   #99
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I got these subs a little over a year ago and pretty much forgot bout them after I moved. Thanks to this thread Im finally going to get it done. How were you able to get the subs to sit perfectly in the enclosure using only dynamat? According to their website the Dynamat Original is only .070" thick and .067" for Extreme.

I had to use a 1/2" MDF spacer so that there was absolutely no movement. Some said 1/4" would work but it was still too thin for me. Still need to seal the edges and run the wires.

WOW - those are NICE spacers - would you be willing to make me a set for $$?

thanks!
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      05-25-2008, 10:49 AM   #100
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is the fuse needed when wiring the amp? i bought the amp wiring kit and there is a 80 amp fuse but dont know how it works, can you guys tell me how it works. i'll be replacing the sub with sws-8 and adding an alpine mrd m500 amp that comes with two 30 amp fuses. thank you

Last edited by ontopofm; 05-25-2008 at 11:43 AM.
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      05-25-2008, 11:03 AM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ontopofm View Post
is the fuse needed when wiring the amp? i bought the amp wiring kit and there is a fuse but dont know how it works, can you guys tell me how it works. i'll be replacing the sub with sws-8 and adding an alpine amp. thank you
Yes... a fuse is required between the battery and that Alpine amp.
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      05-25-2008, 11:43 AM   #102
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is 80 amp fuse too much? i bought the 1500 watt amp wiring kits instead of the 500 watt kits,
so the wiring would be...battery to fuse, fuse to amplifier
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      05-25-2008, 12:08 PM   #103
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Check the fuse on the amp itself, and use one the same size or slightly larger. Fuse at the amp protects the amp, fuse at the battery protects the wire and the car. Muy importante.
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      05-25-2008, 12:22 PM   #104
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the amp comes with two 30 fuses, so 80 amp fuse would be too much?
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      05-25-2008, 12:22 PM   #105
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Get a 60 amp fuse... always go lower if you have to, not over the limit.
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      05-25-2008, 12:48 PM   #106
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Againn, I disagree. You should NEVER fuse at the battery UNDER what the amp has. The amp is fused to handle its load - if you underfuse at the battery, the battery fuse could blow for no good reason.

The fuse at the battery is there in case there is a very high current draw - such as from a pinched wire shorting to metal chassis ground. If the battery (+) voltage tries to take the trip to ground all at once, that's a short circuit, and the wire will get really hot and melt and catch the car on fire. The fuse popping prevents this.

So if your amp has 60A of fusing on it, an 80A fuse at the battery is perfectly suitable (as long as your wire is large enough gauge).
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      05-25-2008, 01:26 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VP Electricity View Post
Againn, I disagree. You should NEVER fuse at the battery UNDER what the amp has. The amp is fused to handle its load - if you underfuse at the battery, the battery fuse could blow for no good reason.

The fuse at the battery is there in case there is a very high current draw - such as from a pinched wire shorting to metal chassis ground. If the battery (+) voltage tries to take the trip to ground all at once, that's a short circuit, and the wire will get really hot and melt and catch the car on fire. The fuse popping prevents this.

So if your amp has 60A of fusing on it, an 80A fuse at the battery is perfectly suitable (as long as your wire is large enough gauge).
I rather have a fuse blown for no good reason than an amp blown for a bad reason...
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      05-25-2008, 01:42 PM   #108
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Quote:
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I rather have a fuse blown for no good reason than an amp blown for a bad reason...
If that's all the current you want your amp to pull, shouldn't you downgrade the amp's internal fuses as well? I just don't get it.

The simple thing to remember is that if two fuses of different values are in series, the lowest-value fuse always blows first.

The fuse on the amp protects the amp. The fuse at the battery protects the wire (and the amp, IF the amp has no internal fuse).

If you had 2 amps fused at 60A each, and one wire with a distribution block supplying power to these two amplifiers, and a 120A fuse at the battery for that one power wire, how would that battery fuse be protecting either amp? It wouldn't. The amp's protection comes from the internal fuse, and if it doesn't have one, then you would need a fused distribution block with individual fuses for each amplifier.

If you have an amp that pulls more current with a 2 ohm load than at a 4 ohm load, the internal fuse from the factory will be appropriate for the worst-case ohm rating (a higher rating). But if the amp is wired to the easier 4 ohm load, then the number of amperes the amp pulls should remain lower than its "worst-case" internal fusing rating, and in that case you can usually get away with a fuse smaller than the amp's internal fuse. But if you don't know how to do the math involved, it's definitely safest to use the same, NOT a lower value - and the risk of using a larger value at the battery is essentially zero.

Or have your fuse blow every time the bass hits.
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      05-25-2008, 05:43 PM   #109
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i've got the answer from http://www.crutchfield.com/S-DbSphBB...t=1&page=all#2 and many other sources but was concerned that an 80A fuse would draw too much power from the battery and therefore damage the alternator in a long run, so do you guys think it is more ideal to run a 65A-70A fuse or 80A fuse is perfectly fine??

Q: How big should the fuse be?


A: If you're installing just one amplifier, the fuse at the battery should simply match or slightly exceed the fuse rating of the amplifier itself. If you're installing two or more amplifiers, just add their fuse ratings together and install a fuse rated roughly equal to this sum. Generally, it's better to go slightly higher than lower, but a margin of five amperes is acceptable.

Say you have three amplifiers, two with fuse ratings of 20 amps each and one with a fuse rating of 25 amps. In this case, you can safely go with either a 60 or 70 amp fuse. (Of course, if your system is powerful enough to demand that you install a heavy duty fuse, it's important that your power and ground wire be of an appropriately heavy gauge as well.)
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      05-25-2008, 05:48 PM   #110
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Quote:
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... was concerned that an 80A fuse would draw too much power from the battery and therefore damage the alternator in a long run, so do you guys think it is more ideal to run a 65A-70A fuse or 80A fuse is perfectly fine??
Fuses don't pull current... they just melt/blow when their rating is exceeded for a few seconds.

So you could put a 200A fuse in there, and the system wouldn't pull any more current than with the 80A fuse. Either the fuse blows or it doesn't, basically. You can't use lower value fuses to create alower load on the alternator. That would require smaller or more efficient amps.
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