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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > BMW E90/E92/E93 3-series General Forums > General E90 Sedan / E91 Wagon / E92 Coupe / E93 Cabrio > No ZSG, but DCT



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      03-04-2006, 10:26 PM   #1
EnI
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Question No ZSG, but DCT?

Since the trends in auto industry are heading towards gasoline turbocharged engines combined with direct injection (more power, less gas consumption), and dual clutch transmissions (smoother shifting, less torque loss, better emission & consumption control), BMW are going straight with this trends.

We have already seen the introduction of first (of many) BMW gasoline turbo engines: the N54 bi-turbo HPI, 3.0L I6, 225kW, 400Nm.

And we all known the rumours of upcoming "ZSG" gearbox - a VW/Audi DSG (BorgWarner's DualTronic) fighter. The German automotive media have spaculated about "ZSG" for a while.

But - is it real?

IMO: it is not - not in a form German media were describing it: as Centrally Synchronized Gearbox ("ZSG").

I have no info that any of transmission specialists (ZF, Getrag, BorgWarner, etc) are developing "ZSG" type of gearbox.

So there are two options: either BMW are developing & producing the gearbox by themselves - which is very unlikely since they have no production capacities - , or they will use the DCT solution developed (I guess in cooperation with BMW) & produced by ZF Sachs AG - which is more likely.

ZF Sachs AG (a very involved BMW development partner: DynamicDrive, ActiveSteering, 6-speed automatic gearbox, etc) has recently developed (prototype was presented at IAA 2005) a 7-speed wet dual clutch transmission named 7 DCT 50 - a BorgWarner's DualTronic fighter.

7 DCT 50 specs:
7 speeds, up to 520Nm, up to 9000rpm, dual-mass flywheel, 3 driving modes (comfort, sport, manual) etc.

Looks like a perfect match for N54 engine.

Here is the 7 DCT 50 presentation (click on "Animations"):
http://www.sachs.de/direkt.php?link=...000000000.html

PS (added later): latest hint is that this specific model by Sahcs: "7 DCT 50" will not be used in 335(s)i but in some other BMW products further down the line. But 335 is to get even more advanced gearbox.

Last edited by EnI; 03-13-2006 at 12:50 PM.
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      03-05-2006, 12:13 AM   #2
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Very interesting read, Greg.

I would have to guess that this particular trans would fall "below" whatever BMW uses for the M cars? What makes me wonder though, is why a company like Mercedes has had a 7 speed in production in its non-AMG cars for a few years already. Seems like BMW was holding out for this version.
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      03-05-2006, 04:06 AM   #3
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I was told ZF was producing the first version with BMW ( Getrag would then probably follow, just like with SMG )
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      03-05-2006, 04:30 AM   #4
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Wow! A very complex and impressive transmission. I watched the video twice.
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      03-05-2006, 08:08 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichReg
Very interesting read, Greg.

I would have to guess that this particular trans would fall "below" whatever BMW uses for the M cars? What makes me wonder though, is why a company like Mercedes has had a 7 speed in production in its non-AMG cars for a few years already. Seems like BMW was holding out for this version.
True - this DCT / "ZSG" gearbox will be used in non-M cars only. /M/ will still stick with SMG. Why? Here is the answer by Gerd Richter, technical director of the M GmbH:

"The dual-clutch system has a smoother automatic mode, and it performs seamless upshifts. For a 7-series, this may be the way to go. But an M car should always combine efficiency with emotion. That's why there are six shift speeds to choose from, from velvet glove to iron fist. That's why we cut the torque into seven slices. That's why we added special features like a hill holder, a designated drive program for steep climbs and descents, and a downshift assistant, which briefly dips the clutch to avoid destabilizing wheel spin."


Btw, MB has a 7-speed automatic gearbox (Lexus even 8-speed one in new LS), not a dual clutch transmission.

BMW is also heading to 7-speed gearboxes: SMG is a 7-speed gearbox, DCT will have 7 speeds , and I guess sometimes in the near feature BMW will use a 7-speed automatic gearbox (already developed by ZF Fridricshaften AG - just like 6-speed auto gearbox BMW are using now) - if it will not be completely dropped in favor of DCT.
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      03-05-2006, 09:01 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregA
But an M car should always combine efficiency with emotion. That's why there are six shift speeds to choose from, from velvet glove to iron fist. [/i]


Quote:
Originally Posted by GregA
BMW is also heading to 7-speed gearboxes: SMG is a 7-speed gearbox, DCT will have 7 speeds , and I guess sometimes in the near feature BMW will use a 7-speed automatic gearbox (already developed by ZF Fridricshaften AG - just like 6-speed auto gearbox BMW are using now) - if it will not be completely dropped in favor of DCT.
A wealth of information. Thanks!
I must tell my father that the shift controls on the steering wheel of his new S-Class
are not to be misinterpreted.
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      03-05-2006, 12:47 PM   #7
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The DCT tranny sounds like a great innovation... my question is with respect to M-Cars. I wonder if BMW will try to phase out a typical manual "stick-shift" transmission for these cars? It seems to me that there is no more "emotion" than driving on the limit and doing it all yourself!

I want to keep the stick around! I love driving my E90 323i with the manual 6-speed and would definately sacrifice 1 or even 2 extra gears just to keep this simple driving pleasure!
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      03-13-2006, 01:40 PM   #8
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As I said earlier:

335 will get something else - not 7 DCT 50 dual clutch gearbox by ZF Sachs. This gearbox will be used in some other BMW product down the line.

335 could get a 7-speed dual clutch transmission by Getrag "DCT 436":
hydraulic actuation
2 contrentic wet clutches
7-speeds
up to 600Nm
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      03-13-2006, 02:59 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregA
As I said earlier:

335 will get something else - not 7 DCT 50 dual clutch gearbox by ZF Sachs. This gearbox will be used in some other BMW product down the line.

335 could get a 7-speed dual clutch transmission by Getrag "DCT 436":
hydraulic actuation
2 contrentic wet clutches
7-speeds
up to 600Nm


is the getrag unit inferior, superior or comparable in quality to the sachs unit?
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      03-13-2006, 03:10 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by epiphone3
The DCT tranny sounds like a great innovation... my question is with respect to M-Cars. I wonder if BMW will try to phase out a typical manual "stick-shift" transmission for these cars? It seems to me that there is no more "emotion" than driving on the limit and doing it all yourself!

I want to keep the stick around! I love driving my E90 323i with the manual 6-speed and would definately sacrifice 1 or even 2 extra gears just to keep this simple driving pleasure!
VW has replaced the auto in the gti with a DSG and kept the manual transmission. I think the DSG, etc... will replace the slushboxes that are in the current cars now.
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      03-13-2006, 03:13 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hector
is the getrag unit inferior, superior or comparable in quality to the sachs unit?

There are no further technical specification on DCT 436 available yet. But I guess it is on par with, or even better then 7 DCT 50.

It can manage more torque (520 vs 600Nm). DCT 436 also looks even more compact than 7 DCT 50.

I guess TCU is also better - since Getrag provides SMG III for M5 & M6 - and SMG III has most advanced TCU.

I'm sure BMW will use both gearboxes - the question is in which models.

I think 335 could use DCT 436.

I'll try to get more info ASAP.
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      03-13-2006, 03:27 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muttley
VW has replaced the auto in the gti with a DSG and kept the manual transmission. I think the DSG, etc... will replace the slushboxes that are in the current cars now.
There are trend predictions that in 2010 around 15% all vehicles sold in Europe will feature DCT, in NA 4%, in Asia-Pacific 7%. In 2015 - Europe: 29%, NA: 7%, AP: 13%.

The trend predictions also shows a boom of turbo charged gasoline engines.

And even greater boom of diesel & hybrid engines.

All the new tech have the same goal: more smoothly delivered power at much lower consumption.
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      03-13-2006, 03:32 PM   #13
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thanks.
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      03-13-2006, 04:06 PM   #14
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Very cool. Something I'm definitely interested in. Please keep the info coming and thanks!
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      03-13-2006, 07:26 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmeads
Very cool. Something I'm definitely interested in. Please keep the info coming and thanks!
I have a feeling I'll get some new info today, March 14th.
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      03-13-2006, 08:19 PM   #16
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Great, Tuesday is often a good day for the list for new stuff. And it is nice to wake up and check to see what our old friends have discovered over morning coffee -- Euro afternoon time. Just new info on the DCT, or?

What is your guess on the pricing of the DCT?
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      03-13-2006, 09:52 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmeads
Very cool. Something I'm definitely interested in. Please keep the info coming and thanks!
same here

BTW what additional info did you find out?
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      03-14-2006, 06:01 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stressdoc
Just new info on the DCT, or?

What is your guess on the pricing of the DCT?
Just info on the DCT of course. DCT 436 by Getrag:



Pricing? I have no idea. Yet.
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      03-14-2006, 08:26 AM   #19
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E90Fleet just posted about orders for 335 coming through in SA. Any idea if it can be ordered with this tranny?
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      03-14-2006, 08:32 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stressdoc
. And it is nice to wake up and check to see what our old friends have discovered over morning coffee -- Euro afternoon time.?

right on, just poured a cup and here i am!
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      03-14-2006, 09:23 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stressdoc
E90Fleet just posted about orders for 335 coming through in SA. Any idea if it can be ordered with this tranny?
I was told 335si will come with DCT.
335i will get 6-speed manual and auto transmissions.
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      03-14-2006, 09:27 AM   #22
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greg, any chance that we might see something at the new york show in april?
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