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      05-27-2008, 01:51 PM   #23
rogerxp
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Looks like I'll be keeping things as they are, for the time being at least. I'll revisit the thought process once the tyres need changing. The only 'sensible' option would be to ditch the RFT (which most who have done this swear by it).

The car does handle brilliantly as it is, and looks the part on it's 18s, and it would be a shame to jepodise that just to improve upon the 10% of the time I'm not launching it around the place!!!
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      05-27-2008, 02:19 PM   #24
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M Sport v SE Ride

I agree that the M Sport can be too harsh and the consesus of opinion is generally "when the family is aboard". I've hit a few pot holes / sunken manholes and boy does this send a jolt through the car as if there is no give at all.

I find it particularly irritating especially when driving at lower speeds. I usually find that the M Sport appears smoother, more compliant and not as harsh when driven at harder if this makes sense.

The answer is if you like RFT, M Sport suspension and some comfort.....drive like Carlos.

IMO the SE is ideal for 70% of driving but the M Sport comes into it's own say the other 30% when your having some fun. For that reason the SE is the one to go for in the real World...........but don't the M Sports look good 100% of the time.........the debate continues.......?

I am considering non run flats next time for that bit of added comfort......It will be pipe and slippers and cocoa next.


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      05-27-2008, 02:45 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dxb335d View Post
I mean mine does feel sporty, and handles very well. But i wouldnt mind it a bit stiffer. (Mine is same as Sport suspension)
Aye, you say that Carlos, and that was always my understanding too - the coupe has the sports suspension as standard so that means 'the suspension is the same'. But when I test-drove a sloon and a coupe back to back, I found the coupe much harsher, somehow the ride felt 'crashy'. Maybe it's because the coupe is slung lower? Anyway it felt so much different to me that I emailed the dealer and asked were the wheels or tires different on the 2 cars I tried. He said he thought not, well definitely not different tyres, and he said 'as far as I know' (which for the average dealer means 'not very f***ing far') the cars both had 18 inch wheels.

FWIW, I reckon the sports suspension is a must, but this is probably because the very first 3 Series I tried was an M Sport, and when I tried an SE it seemed far less fun to drive. Some potholes or major bumps can rattle your cage, no question, and cats eyes are surprisingly jarring, but nothing that gets in the way of the enjoyment. Speed bumps are a bore, but the I guess they're meant to be....
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      05-27-2008, 02:56 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by dxb335d View Post
But i wouldnt mind it a bit stiffer.
I think you can get some pills for this Carlos mate.
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      05-27-2008, 02:59 PM   #27
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      05-27-2008, 03:02 PM   #28
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I think you can get some pills for this Carlos mate.

The Miswah complaining again? She's so ungrateful!
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      05-27-2008, 05:09 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilR View Post
I usually find that the M Sport appears smoother, more compliant and not as harsh when driven at harder if this makes sense.
Total sense, the msport suspension is about handling. If you don't push the car there is no point to it.

I'm totally happy with mine.

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Originally Posted by PhilR View Post
The answer is if you like RFT, M Sport suspension and some comfort.....drive like Carlos.
Maybe not quite like Carlos. Ideally you want to spend at least 50% of your time on the right side of the road
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      05-27-2008, 05:13 PM   #30
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Something that has been overlooked is temprature. You can't get heat into RF's in the winter, this makes them dangerous. On top of that, with normal tyres, you can read the car with ease, and it warns before it bites.

I had a 130 with RF's....binned them after a week.
I had the RF's taken off the tractor before i drove it out of Sytners. On 18's with normal tyres, it was great, on 19's with normal tyres its fantastic, i wonder how much the unsprung weight difference of the Alpinas compared to the heavier M rims helps this.

I can now access 10 tenths of the car with confidence, it can be thrown at a bend with some violence, then just loads the outside wheel up and digs in, you won't do that on an RF, especially in the winter, and of course, the M division and Alpina won't fit them, and they know a thing or 2 about a thing or 2.
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      05-27-2008, 05:30 PM   #31
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I agree fully.

I have noticed that at the warmer temperatures we are having now (constantly > 25 C) the RFTs do feel better for ride. I've checked the tyre pressures at below freezing and soon after at higher ambient temps and you would be amazed at the difference recorded, purely caused by temp.

But I never get a real feel for the car when pushing on - it sometimes feels like Tigger who is occasionally hiting his bump stops. That unsprung mass seems to dictate proceedings.

I also believe it is perfectly possible to have a great handling car without this acceptance that it has to rattle your teeth out. Taut yes. Crashing and skipping, NO.

D.

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Originally Posted by roofer View Post
Something that has been overlooked is temprature. You can't get heat into RF's in the winter, this makes them dangerous. On top of that, with normal tyres, you can read the car with ease, and it warns before it bites.

I had a 130 with RF's....binned them after a week.
I had the RF's taken off the tractor before i drove it out of Sytners. On 18's with normal tyres, it was great, on 19's with normal tyres its fantastic, i wonder how much the unsprung weight difference of the Alpinas compared to the heavier M rims helps this.

I can now access 10 tenths of the car with confidence, it can be thrown at a bend with some violence, then just loads the outside wheel up and digs in, you won't do that on an RF, especially in the winter, and of course, the M division and Alpina won't fit them, and they know a thing or 2 about a thing or 2.
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      05-27-2008, 05:53 PM   #32
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I also believe it is perfectly possible to have a great handling car without this acceptance that it has to rattle your teeth out. Taut yes.
Indeed, if all our roads were billiard table smooth, you would benefit from spring/damper stiffness.

A spring needs to transmit the energy of the compression without deflecting the chassis as we know, combined with the right frequency of damper. The initial signal sent by an RF is 70% undamped (guess) which gives the spring more energy to dissipate. A normal tyre transfers half as much, letting the spring do its job better, without using as much energy to do it. Result? more compliance in ride, so instead of a wheel being deflected off course, the spring is returning it to the desired position because its not wasting time coping with the extra energy sent to it by an RF.

As an everyday choice, the M springs with the 19's are a good match, bearing in mind i am an old bastard who dislikes skateboard suspension. I've also caned a B3 to within an inch of its life, and there is very little in the two setups, although the B3 bottomed out sooner.

Conclusion? RF's are dire, and don't buy ex demo Alpinas
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      05-27-2008, 06:06 PM   #33
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Last two posts sum it up. RFTs are too hard - on my (early) car the springs / shocks dont compensate for that and the ride is ridiculous, on later cars which probably have softer initial springing and harder progressive rates some of the harshness and instability is taken out.

I've owned cars that I messed about with putting on harder springs and adjustable Spax shocks and you could crank those things up so hard they hardly shifted an inch and there was pretty much zero body roll under any circumstances - they were too hard for road use like that but the ride was STILL less harsh than my car on RFTs.

Tyres perform an important shock abosorbing function which harder RFTs reduce and I dont think (certainly on my early model) BMW ever engineered the suspension to properly deal with that.
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      05-28-2008, 03:21 AM   #34
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Interesting thread this......

I actually found the set-up of my 335d on RFT's (Michelin) to be very good. Yes it felt quite stiff which at times made the car uncomfortable for passengers on poor roads, but ultimately I found the car cornered well with minimal body roll and turn in was sharp enough. After reading all of the threads about people ditching their RFT's in favour of "normal" tyres I decided to follow suit (plus the fact that BMW tried to charge me over 600 for 2 RFT's!!). Since fitting them I have found that I just cannot get the car to handle / feel as well set-up as before the RFT's. The only "benefit" I have noticed is that the car now absorbs the bumps and poor roads better (which never really bothered me anyway). On the downside for me the car now feels more "wallowy" (body roll) in and out of corners and semi tight bends causing the car at times to feel like it is "bouncing" out of a corner. I do a lot of motorway driving and find that on pretty much straight / flat roads with the occasional dip/rise the car feels again "bouncy" at speed.

I will be going back to the michelin RFT's as soon as the current tyres are worn (maybe sooner), the car *is* set up for these harder walled tyres and going to "normal" tyres shows this up. If you want a potentially quieter and "softer" ride then by all means go for the "normal tyres".

Jules.
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      05-28-2008, 04:12 AM   #35
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What tyre pressures are you running ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jude1 View Post
Interesting thread this......

I actually found the set-up of my 335d on RFT's (Michelin) to be very good. Yes it felt quite stiff which at times made the car uncomfortable for passengers on poor roads, but ultimately I found the car cornered well with minimal body roll and turn in was sharp enough. After reading all of the threads about people ditching their RFT's in favour of "normal" tyres I decided to follow suit (plus the fact that BMW tried to charge me over 600 for 2 RFT's!!). Since fitting them I have found that I just cannot get the car to handle / feel as well set-up as before the RFT's. The only "benefit" I have noticed is that the car now absorbs the bumps and poor roads better (which never really bothered me anyway). On the downside for me the car now feels more "wallowy" (body roll) in and out of corners and semi tight bends causing the car at times to feel like it is "bouncing" out of a corner. I do a lot of motorway driving and find that on pretty much straight / flat roads with the occasional dip/rise the car feels again "bouncy" at speed.

I will be going back to the michelin RFT's as soon as the current tyres are worn (maybe sooner), the car *is* set up for these harder walled tyres and going to "normal" tyres shows this up. If you want a potentially quieter and "softer" ride then by all means go for the "normal tyres".

Jules.
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      05-28-2008, 04:30 AM   #36
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What tyre pressures are you running ?
I've tried various tyre pressures to try and improve the bouncy issue, going as high as 42 and as low as 28 to gauge the effect.

I prefer the firm ride on the RFT's and in my experience the car performs better with them on. If I was able to change the suspension totally then I am sure that the handling can be improved massively on non RTF's. But for what the car is (a sporty saloon) it is more than good enough with the RFT's. I will be switching back as I just cannot get on with the current "wallowy" and "bouncy" ride, it's not bad but just not as good as before.

Jules.
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      05-28-2008, 05:33 AM   #37
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Interesting to here a 'negative' reaction to changing to non-RFTs. Seems everyone has different expectations on how their car should act & feel. Just proves you can't have your cake and eat it. The thread continues....
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      05-28-2008, 05:34 AM   #38
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Jules - there might be a some offers rolling in for your partially used non-RFT in exchange for some partially used RFT!!!!!!!
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      05-28-2008, 08:52 AM   #39
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I'm really liking the EDC suspension on the M3, in comfort mode with 18" non RFT I'd say the ride is superior to my old E60 530D se with 18" RFT which I did 70k miles in.

You never know, EDC might find it's way into the 3 series range in the future,
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      05-28-2008, 09:17 AM   #40
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RFT are fine not even harsh cutting across the rumble strip!
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      05-28-2008, 10:22 AM   #41
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I had the 'skyhook' air suspension in my Maserati which was great for instantly switching the mood of driving - 'sport' mode for driving by yourself and 'normal' for family cruising. Obviously the M3's EDC offers similar options (at a price!!!) which would be perfect. It's surely only a matter of time until this is offered on 'lesser' models hopefully at a reduced price.
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      05-29-2008, 07:06 AM   #42
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It seems the different reaction to RFTs might depend on which manufactures are fitted.

Before buying we hired a 325d M-Sport on Michelin RFTs and it was superb , had it for about 600 miles.

Our own car 330d SE on Bridgestones is terrible, exhibiting all the classic RFT twitchy and tram lining.

Seriously thinking about taking the Bridgestones off even though they have plenty of tread and moving to Michelin PS2 RFT or Goodyear F1's
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      05-29-2008, 07:17 AM   #43
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I cannot recommend the Michelin RFTs highly enough. They are superb tyre
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      05-29-2008, 11:35 AM   #44
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Quote:
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It seems the different reaction to RFTs might depend on which manufactures are fitted.
I'm on my second lot of Bridgestone RFT's and I have no problems with them at all. I'm a reasonably enthusiastic driver and I don't have any problems when pressing on.

It's very personal I suppose
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