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      03-06-2008, 07:15 PM   #1
neenjafus
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How much over invoice to pay?

Hey Guys,

I will be ordering either a 335i or 135i here pretty soon.

I am in Southern California, if that makes a difference.

Every dealer I have spoke with said they will be charging MSRP on the 135i except one said they would charge over MSRP...didn't call them back

If I end up going with the 335i (leaning towards this one) what should I look to pay over invoice?

One internet manager quoted me $1,000 over invoice. I found a sales guy I like and will probably buy from him, should I push for $500 over or is $1,000 over pretty fair?

I will be purchasing so I'll either use the best rate BMW has at the time or get outside financing if I can get a better rate.

Thanks!
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      03-06-2008, 07:21 PM   #2
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anything between 500 - 1000 invoice is alright (the lower the better for you, so go for it) btw who knwos what kinda price you can get on the 135i.
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      03-06-2008, 07:32 PM   #3
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as low as you can. most dealers by me still are trying to only take 500 - 1000 off msrp. i know dealers need to make money but there is like 4k in mark up on the 335.

Last edited by baggerben; 03-06-2008 at 07:32 PM. Reason: cany spell
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      03-06-2008, 07:33 PM   #4
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i have the same question. we are talking bout 1,000 over invoice plus Tax and license fee, right? so the out the door price would be close to MSRP.
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      03-06-2008, 09:43 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neenjafus View Post
Hey Guys,

I will be ordering either a 335i or 135i here pretty soon.

I am in Southern California, if that makes a difference.

Every dealer I have spoke with said they will be charging MSRP on the 135i except one said they would charge over MSRP...didn't call them back

If I end up going with the 335i (leaning towards this one) what should I look to pay over invoice?

One internet manager quoted me $1,000 over invoice. I found a sales guy I like and will probably buy from him, should I push for $500 over or is $1,000 over pretty fair?

I will be purchasing so I'll either use the best rate BMW has at the time or get outside financing if I can get a better rate.

Thanks!
Dude, first of all - ALL 135's are going to be selling at or above MSRP. This is a brand new car, so it will be sold at a premium. I would go for the 335 if I were you, you will prob get a better deal. I paid a few hundred over invoicenfor my car. Try to pay as close to invoice as you can. 500 over isnt too high, but once you start approaching 1000 or more - next dealer
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      03-06-2008, 10:45 PM   #6
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I am leaning towards the 335 but I do want to check out the 135 just in case I love it.

Thanks for the advice on the price. I'll look for $500 over or better.
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      03-30-2008, 05:30 PM   #7
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bump

I'm on the same boat as you bro. I'm very interested in a 135i but if I can get a 335i for $500 over invoice then "DEAL...Final decision"
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      03-31-2008, 08:28 PM   #8
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What to pay - I just got 1 k over invoice plus tax credits

Perillo BMW in Chicago offered me 1 k over invoice on an 08 335i with auto paddle shift, premium, cold and sport packages, Sat Radio, ipod connection.

They offered me 1 k over invoice and payed the sales tax, which in Cook county is ~2400.

To get the best prices DO NOT go into the dealer they waste your time and grind you down - use the internet and get one to bid against the other - they hate it but it worked well for me. Tell them you will buy today and that gets their attention - I did buy that day as my part of the bargain.

I pick up the car in a few days

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      05-26-2008, 07:57 AM   #9
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Just picked up my 335xi coupe for $400 under invoice. We had originally agreed to $200 over invoice but when it came time to see all the lease #s it dropped even lower. I'm not sure why...the sales manager said it was just his way of saying "thank you".....maybe because I bought 2 cars in a little over a years time from them. Either way I'm happy.
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      06-12-2008, 09:44 PM   #10
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If you have patience, you can get the 135i for as low as 500 over INVOICE.

Honestly, I already placed my order for 500 over invoice but another dealer I had been working with offered straight INVOICE to me today.
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      06-12-2008, 09:46 PM   #11
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Every dealer out there will tell you one thing the first day you ask. I guarantee their stories will change and offers get better as the days and weeks go by without a sale. Have patience.
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      06-14-2008, 07:16 PM   #12
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      06-23-2008, 07:44 PM   #13
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these might be stupid questions, but i'll be entering the market soon and want to make sure i have all my i's dotted and t's crossed.

when you talk about the invoice price of the car, how do you price the options? are we talking about the invoice price of the car plus the invoice prices of all the options and then adding $500 above?

Negotiated Price of Car = [CarInvoicePrice + OptionsInvoicePrice] + $500 + AncilliaryFees

or do you mean the invoice price of the car plus the $500 and then negotiate prices on options separately?


Negotiated Price of Car = [CarInvoicePrice +$500] + [OptionsNegotiatedPrices] + AncilliaryFees

Also could things like wheel warranty be sorted on the day I agree to a price, and if so, can that price be negotiated also? (I would be buying the car -- a E92 335xi -- outright without financing, and probably go for PP, L7, Nav, as well as a few other options: CA, Servotronic, maybe Steptronic)

thanks in advance


edit - does pricing above invoice only apply to vehicles in the dealer's allotment or does it also apply to a car that the buyer requests to be built? let's say there is a similar car in stock but i'd rather buy a brand new car that would have to be built and shipped. Would the dealer be more willing to offer a deal on the similar car in stock and/or less willing to deal on a car yet to be built? what if that similar car is available at another dealer's? any impact on the ability to negotiate?

i'm guessing they'd be more willing to deal on a car in their own stock. if so, and the car in stock is somewhat different than the car+options i really want, is there more room for negotiation?

Last edited by bling_singh; 06-23-2008 at 08:53 PM.
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      06-23-2008, 10:40 PM   #14
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I just went through all the research of buying a new car (but not the leasing math!)
Here is a summary of how I see the math works:


The "Invoice +" method of buying a car:

Here is the math, read below for explanations.
I put these in a spreadsheet to let it do all the actual math.


(Start with the INVOICE PRICE)

$xw,xxx Base-Car price (Invoice)
+$xw,xxx Selected Options SubTotal (Invoice)
------------------------------------
=$xw,xxx SubTotal (Invoice)


(Add IMPOSED FEES)

+$ 180 Training Service Fee (Mandatory and fixed fee)
+$ 300 MACO (Mandatory but variable fee)
+$ 775 Destination & Handling (Mandatory and fixed fee)
------------------------------------
=$xw,xxx SubTotal (INVC + Imposed Fees)


(Add DISCRETIONARY FEES)

+$ 500 Dealer Profit <<< specific to my deal
+$00,000 Junk Fees (watch out for these!)
------------------------------------
+$xw,xxx SubTotal (OtD less TTT & Rebates)


(Add TTT & REBATES)

+$xw,xxx State Tax
+$ 199 Doc Fees (Tag & Title)
-$xw,xxx Rebate
------------------------------------
+$xw,xxx Out the Door (OtD) <<<<<<<<<<< Amount of my Check


(Add ACCESSORIES)

+$xw,xxx DEALER provided and/or installed options and accessories:
IE: alarm, floor mats, CD-Changer, Sat-Radio.
(Probably a separate check, and may be taxed)


=$xw,xxx FINAL COST of your car.



=================================================
Explanation of terms:
=================================================

INVOICE PRICES:
Invoice amounts for the base-car & the options should come from trusted sources, like data sheets posted in these and other forums, and also from the Sam's and Costco Auto clubs, Consumers Reports, and Edmunds.com
I got them from all and compared them. (They all matched for my car).

IMPOSED FEES (Fees imposed on the deal by the dealer and manufacturer):
The Training Fee and the Destination Fee are fixed-amount, nonnegotiable. (Per many messages read in this and other forums.)

The MACO (Marketing Area Co-Op - an advertising fee) is $200-400 usually, per my research).
This is non-negotiable, meaning the CA is not able to remove it from the deal.
However, it is variable. That means that it could be different from dealer to dealer. Of the 17 dealerships I contacted, the amount varies from $0-$400, most often $300. My best guess is that the dealer's management determines this number, and it becomes Fixed & Non-Negotiable for THAT dealer.

DISCRETIONARY FEES (fees that can very from car to car, buyer to buyer, dealer to dealer) This is where all the "slack" in the deal should be.

Dealer Profit
I feel that the dealer has the right to make a reasonable profit, and it's the marketplace (their opinion vs. yours) as to what the market will bear, for any particular make, model, and setup of car. The best sources I found to determine this number was to read a lot of these forums and see what others paid for similar cars, in my part of the country.

JUNK FEES
I've seen dealers charge additional line item fees for: Processing; Valet; Gas; and even something labeled "Christmas fund". It's my opinion that these numbers represent "Normal Business Overhead" and should be included in their invoice and profit.

TTT Tax, Tag, and Title

Tax is a fixed percentage, set by the state the car will be registered in.

Tag and Title (aka Doc fees): My dealer charged $200 for a Doc (document) Fee. I felt this was an acceptable amount to me. I know the actual tag fee and title fee are about 2/3 of what the dealer charged me, but the last time I had to do these myself it took me several hours standing in line. So I think it's reasonable to pay the dealer a few bucks extra as an admin fee to process them so I don't have to.
It might be possible to negotiate this out of the deal, and have the buyer rather than the dealer do all the paperwork by the state. That would be up to the dealer.

Rebate (aka "Option Credit" aka "Trunk Money" aka "Dealer Incentive")
This is money that the factory gives to the dealer under very SPECIFIC circumstances of car make and model and option. Do your research. You might have to present your info to the dealer to get this credited to your deal, rather than being an stealth-bump to their profit. The dealer is NOT obligated to tell you if any exist, and they are not obligated to pass the money on to you even if you do find out about it. Maybe they will split it with you. Talk to your CA.
NOTE: This is NOT taken from the subtotal of your car before taxes, but after. It might not show up on the car's invoice price listings, but as a separate line item below, added by the dealer.
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      06-23-2008, 10:58 PM   #15
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MechMan, I've never booked a forum post until today.

Thanks so much for the thorough write up, recounting your experience so clearly. Very much appreciated, and I will definitely be leaning on it in my research process as I approach my decision to purchase.
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      06-24-2008, 12:13 AM   #16
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You're quite welcome. I had to get a new car ASAP (previous 328 hit by inattentive taxi), and looking through all the posts by others absolutely saved me several thousand dollars, and helped me get what I wanted too!

In all that research, I took a lot of notes, and it was pretty straightforward to clean them up and post them.

I did leave out one important piece of advice. If you are going to go the Invoice+ (Internet Sales) route, don't hesitate to contact EVERY DARN DEALER you find. I literally contacted every single BMW dealer in two states, and only 3 responded other than Showroom-standard. So send out a lot of inquiries and hope you find a good CA.

Good Luck!
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      06-24-2008, 12:32 AM   #17
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nice glad it worked it out for u
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      06-24-2008, 01:19 PM   #18
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Agree with the "contacting all dealers in area" approach

I did all of my negotiating through the internet, and had no trouble getting $500 over invoice (but before tax, destination, MACO/training fees) from several LA-area dealers. This was in early May before the recent price increases. Good luck.
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      06-27-2008, 08:24 PM   #19
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yeah don't forget to negotiate safeguard (tires) and safelease if you lease.

the tire is no brainer. the IAS policy is as long as the tires are not driven in construction zones and have 3/32" you get a brand new tire(s). up to 4 per 10 days, no costs to you other than initial contract payment (which is for 5 years iirc, pro-rated return if you sell/lease the car back).

so say your rear tires are down to 5/32 (measure well!) and those darn nails get in them. w00t brand new tires. you'd be suprised at all the nails on the ground these days. it also covers potholes including damage to wheel in case of potholes (but not curbage!). talked to an m3 owner who had a nearly worn to limit (3/32) set of rears that oddly received a gash on both sidewalls. they had new tires on them since no bmw dealer will patch a RFT.

ask price depends on tire cost but i've seen $400-$1000 and of course if you get both safelease and safeguard (and other items) you can negotiate price. This is done at the FInance stage and the salesmen gets a cut i'm sure but i think this is all on the FI guy and theres not much the sales man can do for you.

if you do lease, remember you can get a 2.9% for life APR or 0% and pay off those items rather than pay 5% or more lease factor so pay those up front. they both (IAS) have pro-rated term refunds according to my paperwork.

so you pay for 5 years on both but if you lease for 36months you get 36/60 (minus some fees) back. odd but thats how they sold it. i guess if you keep the car longer (lease option). IIRC the safelease if you buy the car you can actually get a large portion of it back or if there is no use of it (ie they claim nothing against it) they will give you a large portion back.

the tire one is a no brainer. I'm not going to tell you what to do these 140 treadwear RFT's cost $300-400 installed each and you have to give them back a car with decent tires on them. so a 36 month probably use at least one set (driving like a baby) and 48 months lease will use two sets to not get fined for worn tires (drive it like a man). do the math on that one man.
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