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      06-05-2008, 11:40 AM   #1
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Is is dumb to vote for someone you know wont win?

So ... Im sure you may think im retarded ... but I honestly can say I cant stand any of the choices for our next president. To me it seems like who ever the lobbiest choose get pushed fwd and we get to chose from one of two of those.

Now b4 I get flamed about the lobbiest comment, I mean the only reason these candidates are getting the funding is from lobbiest groups. Those who dont support or agree with lobbiest dont get the funding and turn have a hard time getting the exposure they need to compete.

Anyway my org question is, is it dumb to vote for someone you know wont win? Reason I ask is I would rather vote for someone who I believe in their values, then give my vote to someone I think is full of shit. I personally would like to see a 3rd choice in every election, but I dont think it will happen till the politicians are shown that their is a request for it from the American people. I think that putting my vote to someone else will help show this but maybe Im just dreaming.
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      06-05-2008, 01:00 PM   #2
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I think you have a misinformed idea of lobbying.

The answer to your question is YES. Our system is a series of winner takes all contests generally at the state level. A vote that does not go to one of the main party candidates is a wasted trip to the voting booth at best and effectively a vote for the lesser desired candidate at worst.
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      06-05-2008, 01:17 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
I think you have a misinformed idea of lobbying.

The answer to your question is YES. Our system is a series of winner takes all contests generally at the state level. A vote that does not go to one of the main party candidates is a wasted trip to the voting booth at best and effectively a vote for the lesser desired candidate at worst.
So in your opinon its better off not voting? then voting for a losing candidate.

Im quite informed when it comes to lobbying ... I have had personal friends that worked as lobbiest on the state level here in Nevada. Personally I'm totally against it. Although at times its for benifical results, the majority of the time its people paying off people to get polices thought that will benefit the lobbiests
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      06-05-2008, 01:55 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by M3This View Post
So in your opinon its better off not voting? then voting for a losing candidate.

Im quite informed when it comes to lobbying ... I have had personal friends that worked as lobbiest on the state level here in Nevada. Personally I'm totally against it. Although at times its for benifical results, the majority of the time its people paying off people to get polices thought that will benefit the lobbiests
My opinion is that you should vote for the major party candidate who more closely matches your views on the issues you find most important.

As for lobbying, are you saying your against the First Amendment? The right to petition government to redress grievances is protected by the Bill of Rights. Lobbyists exist because the government imposes itself on individuals, organizations, and businesses. Lobbying is more often a reaction to government action rather than the reverse.
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      06-05-2008, 02:01 PM   #5
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as long as u dont vote for republicans u'll be fine. at least u'll feel good for the next 8 years when they fuck up the country more and u say thank God i didnt help get them into office
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      06-05-2008, 02:19 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
My opinion is that you should vote for the major party candidate who more closely matches your views on the issues you find most important.

As for lobbying, are you saying your against the First Amendment? The right to petition government to redress grievances is protected by the Bill of Rights. Lobbyists exist because the government imposes itself on individuals, organizations, and businesses. Lobbying is more often a reaction to government action rather than the reverse.
Im not against the first amendment ... but how you interp it can be totally different. Just like the right to bare arms has been fought over for years.

I am against people wining and dining people and giving them trips and other free shit so that they can get a policy passed in their favor. When the country was founded I can bet you everything I own the founding fathers never intended it to be like this. There is nothing more American then to question our government. ....Lobbyists would be great if Ethics existed in American politics, but we all know those have been missing for a long time.
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      06-05-2008, 02:39 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3This View Post
Im not against the first amendment ... but how you interp it can be totally different. Just like the right to bare arms has been fought over for years.
The Second Amendment contains some arguably imprecise language. However, "Congress shall make no law ... abridging ... the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances" seems pretty clear cut.

Quote:
I am against people wining and dining people and giving them trips and other free shit so that they can get a policy passed in their favor. When the country was founded I can bet you everything I own the founding fathers never intended it to be like this. There is nothing more American then to question our government. ....Lobbyists would be great if Ethics existed in American politics, but we all know those have been missing for a long time.
The ethics of the people we elect to office depends on no one but us.
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      06-05-2008, 02:51 PM   #8
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I feel the same way. It sucks, but I'm just voting for who I believe is the lesser of two evils.
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      06-05-2008, 02:57 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
The Second Amendment contains some arguably imprecise language. However, "Congress shall make no law ... abridging ... the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances" seems pretty clear cut.
Seems pretty clear ... but its talking about the public ... meaning you and me and our next door neighbors ....think about the time it was written, during the establishment of our country there was small town hall meeting where people could discuss law .... it wasnt meant for some big business taking senators out to big fancy dinners and buying them prostitutes.



Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
The ethics of the people we elect to office depends on no one but us.
Agreed ... but our choices are limited ... the only way one can come to power is thought money .... you need money to even campaign on a city level! Without it you will not get enough exposure to get elected.

Where does all the big money come from? Big business who supports a candidate, and in turn expects a favor in return. If you don't think this is how it happens you must be living in a hole.

EDIT: By my statements you may think Im against big business .... when in actuality I'm totally for it ... for Pro all business, small, medium, and big. I think the gov should stay out of business, and concentrate on the people. I think the gov. should be ran like a big business and the people treated as the share holders.
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      06-05-2008, 04:05 PM   #10
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Everyone will give you their own spin. I suggest that if you can't stomach either candidate representing the Republican or Democrat party, rather than picking "the lesser of two evils" vote for a third party candidate. It is not a wasted vote and actually speaks much louder than voting for a turd.

I support the Constitution Party candidate. The party has a platform that is closer to my viewpoint than what the Republican candidate represents this year. The Republican platform hasn't been taken seriously after elections for far too long.

I couldn't possibly vote for the Democrat.

There is also the Libertarian Party.

There is also Ralph Nader (as an Independent this time).

There is also the Green Party.

This is a good year to learn something about everybody and go with your heart. Thumb your nose at those who would guilt you into supporting their party's candidate.

There is some information on the candidates at politics.dominates.us where you'll find some criticism and some support for the candidates. Also, there are links to other resources that may be of use for you.
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      06-05-2008, 04:32 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3This View Post
Seems pretty clear ... but its talking about the public ... meaning you and me and our next door neighbors ....think about the time it was written, during the establishment of our country there was small town hall meeting where people could discuss law .... it wasnt meant for some big business taking senators out to big fancy dinners and buying them prostitutes.
Who hires lobbyists except the public?


Quote:
Agreed ... but our choices are limited ... the only way one can come to power is thought money .... you need money to even campaign on a city level! Without it you will not get enough exposure to get elected.

Where does all the big money come from? Big business who supports a candidate, and in turn expects a favor in return. If you don't think this is how it happens you must be living in a hole.

EDIT: By my statements you may think Im against big business .... when in actuality I'm totally for it ... for Pro all business, small, medium, and big. I think the gov should stay out of business, and concentrate on the people. I think the gov. should be ran like a big business and the people treated as the share holders.
Corporations are forbidden from contributing money to federal political campaigns. The most effective lobbbying organizations are those with large grassroots membership; the AARP and the NRA are good examples.
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      06-05-2008, 04:43 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
Who hires lobbyists except the public?
When I was a financial advisor, I was a member of NAIFA (national assn of insurance and financial advisors). When President Bush advocated fundamental change to the tax treatment of savings, NAIFA directed their lobbying efforts to defeat the whole idea. For one who was educated to sell insurance products to be used as much for investment as for the insurance, it was obvious why NAIFA opposed the President's proposal. It would hurt their own interest even if it would be the best thing for the vast majority of Americans. The legislation went nowhere.

I was in full agreement with the President on the proposed legislation. My membership dues went to the lobbyists without my approval.

Lobbyists don't necessarily represent even those whose money pays their way.
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      06-05-2008, 04:56 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
When I was a financial advisor, I was a member of NAIFA (national assn of insurance and financial advisors). When President Bush advocated fundamental change to the tax treatment of savings, NAIFA directed their lobbying efforts to defeat the whole idea. For one who was educated to sell insurance products to be used as much for investment as for the insurance, it was obvious why NAIFA opposed the President's proposal. It would hurt their own interest even if it would be the best thing for the vast majority of Americans. The legislation went nowhere.

I was in full agreement with the President on the proposed legislation. My membership dues went to the lobbyists without my approval.

Lobbyists don't necessarily represent even those whose money pays their way.
Who elected the leadership of the NAIFA who directed the lobbying effort?
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      06-05-2008, 05:09 PM   #14
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A vote for someone you know won't win is a valuable message that says you are not satisfied with the current likely candidates. You can also write in someone who is not on the ballot which also sends a message. All votes matter...
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      06-05-2008, 05:26 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
Who elected the leadership of the NAIFA who directed the lobbying effort?
You miss the point. The lobbyists do not represent the public. They represent an interest group. Even within that interest group, there will be those who disagree with their lobbying efforts, yet their money is used all the same as if they were in full agreement.

When you are a member, you don't control the leadership. They make the decisions. You don't vote on what is to be lobbied. It is their decision. I would expect that many associations that hire lobbyists take this approach. It may serve the specific interests of the organization , but it does not serve the greater public interest in cases such as the one I cited.

Similar, but different is the influence labor unions have. They do not represent the individual interests of their membership. The labor unions represent the interests of the labor union without concerning themselves with the interests of those who are not so self serving.

We should be better off if we didn't have such a large federal government and if the lobbyists were less effective than they are today. They do not represent anyone's interest but a few, and only where those few are in alignment with the goals of their organization.
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      06-05-2008, 06:18 PM   #16
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Couldnt agree more with you scottwww
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      06-05-2008, 07:08 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
You miss the point. The lobbyists do not represent the public. They represent an interest group. Even within that interest group, there will be those who disagree with their lobbying efforts, yet their money is used all the same as if they were in full agreement.

When you are a member, you don't control the leadership. They make the decisions. You don't vote on what is to be lobbied. It is their decision. I would expect that many associations that hire lobbyists take this approach. It may serve the specific interests of the organization , but it does not serve the greater public interest in cases such as the one I cited.

Similar, but different is the influence labor unions have. They do not represent the individual interests of their membership. The labor unions represent the interests of the labor union without concerning themselves with the interests of those who are not so self serving.

We should be better off if we didn't have such a large federal government and if the lobbyists were less effective than they are today. They do not represent anyone's interest but a few, and only where those few are in alignment with the goals of their organization.
EXACTLY!
Ganeil thinks he knows it all but has no clue about the lobbying system...
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      06-05-2008, 07:19 PM   #18
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I feel the same way. It sucks, but I'm just voting for who I believe is the lesser of two evils.
+1

I'm a big fan of RP, but he's wayyyyy too radical for me to vote for him. I like his core beliefs, but his version of Constitutionalism can't be implemented. Though steps in that direction should be taken. Thus I'll vote McCain since he'll sure as hell spend less than the dems and won't tax me as much.
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      06-05-2008, 08:02 PM   #19
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Is is?

funny when you are asking if IT is DUMB
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      06-05-2008, 08:45 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FirstClass View Post
+1

I'm a big fan of RP, but he's wayyyyy too radical for me to vote for him. I like his core beliefs, but his version of Constitutionalism can't be implemented. Though steps in that direction should be taken. Thus I'll vote McCain since he'll sure as hell spend less than the dems and won't tax me as much.
Was that the reason you also voted for Bush?
Ah wait...you were too young to vote in 2004
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      06-05-2008, 09:02 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3This View Post
To me it seems like who ever the lobbiest choose get pushed fwd and we get to chose from one of two of those.

Now b4 I get flamed about the lobbiest comment, I mean the only reason these candidates are getting the funding is from lobbiest groups. Those who dont support or agree with lobbiest dont get the funding and turn have a hard time getting the exposure they need to compete.
I guess you didn't realize that Obama does not accept money from lobbyists or Political Action Committees aka PAC's or Special interest groups that do business with the Federal government or "washington lobbyists" as we have all come to call them.

He says this all the time and no one tries to say otherwise because they all know its true.

As a matter of fact since Barack Obama doesn't accept money from lobbyists, PAC's or special interest groups Obama announced TODAY that his policy of not accepting money from these groups will now apply to the Democratic National Committee (DNC) since they will assist him in raising money for this election.

What other candidate can say that in recent history?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080605/...emocrats_money

Your right when you said those who don't accept lobbyist money don't win. That is usually the case, but that's what makes Obama's win such a story. People thought he was nuts and would never raise any money. But his message of change and doing things differently really resonated with the american public and they supported him. He had such a massive, never before seen grassroots effort to raise money from people like you and me that historians will be talking about this for decades to come. His money raising effort is a political "david vs goliath" story in itself that political thinkers could write books about for years to come.

People say what change? "He's just talking non sense." Well there you go...change you can believe in....and it actually worked despite the massive odds.

AND if he wins the presidency....he won't owe "Big Business" any favors. About time!!!!

Last edited by TMNT; 06-05-2008 at 10:33 PM.
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      06-05-2008, 10:45 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
You miss the point. The lobbyists do not represent the public. They represent an interest group.
An interest group made up of people who share an interest.

Quote:
We should be better off if we didn't have such a large federal government and if the lobbyists were less effective than they are today. They do not represent anyone's interest but a few, and only where those few are in alignment with the goals of their organization.
Lobbyists exist because the federal government has expanded it own power. What are the chances that the individual right to bear arms would still be a subject of discussion in this country but for the lobbying efforts of the NRA?
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