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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Dinan II Reflash Dyno



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      06-24-2008, 04:16 PM   #23
shiv@vishnu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garissimo View Post
I don't see anyone who has the Stage II Dinan Flash claiming they've been duped or ripped off, either. I suppose we should just take your completely unbiased opinion as fact, though, eh?
No, don't take my opinion as fact by any means. The results that other Dinan customers have posted, time and time again, speak loud enough.

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      06-24-2008, 04:30 PM   #24
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Those are some low numbers. However, everyone was reading pretty low that day. A lot of disappointed people were there.
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      06-24-2008, 05:27 PM   #25
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OP, thanks for the post. Ignore those who fail to perceive their own deception and lie with sincerity.
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      06-24-2008, 05:29 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
No, don't take my opinion as fact by any means. The results that other Dinan customers have posted, time and time again, speak loud enough.

Shiv
I'm not an expert and probably everyone on this forum knows infinitely more about "tuning" than I do but it would seem very strange for a company the size and repuatation of Dinan to put out falsified numbers. If you think about it, that wouldn't do them any good. They have too much history and positive influence in this particular marketplace to risk all of it on one generation of automobile.

The accusations being tossed around are relatively serious and if were true, could cost Dinan not only their reputation but potentially land them in a court system just itching to make an example out of someone. I really doubt they'd ante up and go all in on the n54 after all of these years. But, I may be wrong.

Is it not possible that the numbers appear low for other reasons? Really, I'm not trying to be argumentative but trying to facilitate other ideas than Dinan lying.

Shiv, I believe you to be an expert...what do you feel might be happening aside from Dinan screwing people?
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      06-24-2008, 05:32 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gossamer View Post
I'm not an expert and probably everyone on this forum knows infinitely more about "tuning" than I do but it would seem very strange for a company the size and repuatation of Dinan to put out falsified numbers. If you think about it, that wouldn't do them any good. They have too much history and positive influence in this particular marketplace to risk all of it on one generation of automobile.

The accusations being tossed around are relatively serious and if were true, could cost Dinan not only their reputation but potentially land them in a court system just itching to make an example out of someone. I really doubt they'd ante up and go all in on the n54 after all of these years. But, I may be wrong.

Is it not possible that the numbers appear low for other reasons? Really, I'm not trying to be argumentative but trying to facilitate other ideas than Dinan lying.

Shiv, I believe you to be an expert...what do you feel might be happening aside from Dinan screwing people?
Were these numbers corrected, and also what type of gas? I'm sure tuners post best case numbers with optimal conditions and you might not get the same results with 91 oct on a hot day.
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      06-24-2008, 05:37 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gossamer View Post

Shiv, I believe you to be an expert...what do you feel might be happening aside from Dinan screwing people?
'

You want to ask Shiv about Dinan?
How about we ask Terry about Shiv?

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      06-24-2008, 05:38 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
No, don't take my opinion as fact by any means. The results that other Dinan customers have posted, time and time again, speak loud enough.

Shiv
Free advice: You make a very good product. Why not let it, and your customer service do the talking for your company instead of constantly injecting yourself into Dinan dyno threads to pimp your Piggy? You're making some pretty serious charges against Dinan without much to back them up.
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      06-24-2008, 05:43 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gossamer View Post

Shiv, I believe you to be an expert...what do you feel might be happening aside from Dinan screwing people?
As GB pointed out, you're not going to get an unbiased answer from Shiv. I believe someone from the dyno shop in Chicago already chimed in and stated the conditions that day weren't very dyno friendly. Everybody was reading low. Again, the average dyno is a tool to show relative gains, not a tool to show absolute hp.
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      06-24-2008, 05:44 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wicked_SVT View Post
There is one thing that is definatley shady about Dinans advertising that I noticed from the time the original flash came out compared to when the revision was released. If you look at the original press release from Dinan it states that the 384fwhp and 421fwtq was done on a completly stock car, NO EXHAUST. If you look at figure 1 in the press release it states "Figure 1. Dyno results for a stock 335i vs. Dinan 335i (software tuning only)". Now the claims in figure 2 state you get 392fwhp and 429fwtq with free flow exhaust. The press release specifically states "Figure 2. Dyno results for a stock 335i versus the Dinan 335i (software, x pipe and exhaust)".

Now lets look at what Dinan is now advertising on thier website for the Stage II rev 2 flash. The description reads "The results of Dinan’s tuning are nothing short of breathtaking, with the added boost and related recalibration along with the Dinan Free Flow Exhaust producing maximum output of 384 horsepower at 5700 rpm and 421 lb-ft torque at 4300 rpm*. " So now you mean to tell me when I purchased my original flash we were all under the impression that I would get the advertised horsepower without an exhaust. Since the revision has been released it now specifically states that the exhaust is needed to achieve the advertised HP. Now I am no lawyer but that is a little misleading if you ask me.

Don't get me wrong, I like my Dinan tune but that seems a little shady to me.
Here you go Wicked, nice catch BTW.
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File Type: pdf Press Release 335i software REV A EDITED.pdf (76.4 KB, 80 views)
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      06-24-2008, 05:49 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubbles View Post
'

You want to ask Shiv about Dinan?
How about we ask Terry about Shiv?

I'm simply asking anyone, including Shiv, to substantially, and with facts, support their claims as they would ask others to do if in Dinan's situation.

I have no allegiance to anyone here but am interested in factual declarations rather than competitive rants. It's easy for me to find fault in my competitors modus operandi and shout it to the world but much more difficult to keep it in context and validate that same claim. Eveyone has a fault.

Put simply, f'ing prove it or shut up. Either way, I don't care because I know neither Steve Dinan or Shiv. I just want to know the truth. And, I can handle the truth!
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      06-24-2008, 05:52 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garissimo View Post
As GB pointed out, you're not going to get an unbiased answer from Shiv. I believe someone from the dyno shop in Chicago already chimed in and stated the conditions that day weren't very dyno friendly. Everybody was reading low. Again, the average dyno is a tool to show relative gains, not a tool to show absolute hp.
Link to above mentioned dyno day:
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...icago+dyno+day

Looked like Dinan did ok...
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      06-24-2008, 05:55 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garissimo View Post
Free advice: You make a very good product. Why not let it, and your customer service do the talking for your company instead of constantly injecting yourself into Dinan dyno threads to pimp your Piggy? You're making some pretty serious charges against Dinan without much to back them up.
I don't need to 'pimp' my piggy any more than I need to say that 310-330whp isn't 385-392bhp.

I get phone calls asking how much power our PROcede makes on an otherwise stock car. I tell them about 380bhp at the least. More if conditions are reasonably good. To me, 380bhp is 345-350whp. Then I'm told that Dinan makes 385bhp, which is more. I explain if that is the case, we must make 420bhp using that same "logic". Fortunately, I say that as a joke because I'm not really into lying to potential customers. Unfortunately, other companies have no problem doing just this.

So it's not enough just to let our product and FACTs speak for themselves in a world where the uninformed are so easily manipulated and brain-washed by BS claims that have no basis in reality, perceived or measured. If anyone wants to argue with facts and actual data, that's great. It's will be to the benefit of any reader, regardless of what their conclusions are. But if someone wants to defend their purchase blindly, present no emperical data to support their argument, and name call those who bring up the issue, they should stay logged off and let the big boys talk.

Shiv
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      06-24-2008, 05:58 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gossamer View Post
I just want to know the truth. And, I can handle the truth!
Let me know when you find it
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      06-24-2008, 05:59 PM   #36
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Quote:
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Here you go Wicked, nice catch BTW.
Bubbles, Am I way off base thinking that the original flash was misleading based on the press release and then all of a sudden thier exhaust is required to achieve thier advertised HP numbers? I am not trying to start anything, I am usally very unbiased torwards any tune. I just thought that it was worth mentioning to get others opinion.
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      06-24-2008, 06:06 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wicked_SVT View Post
Bubbles, Am I way off base thinking that the original flash was misleading based on the press release and then all of a sudden thier exhaust is required to achieve thier advertised HP numbers? I am not trying to start anything, I am usally very unbiased torwards any tune. I just thought that it was worth mentioning to get others opinion.
Not at all, but I'm rockin Flash Classic and I am very happy with the power. I won't be going in for the Rev. 2 anytime soon.
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      06-24-2008, 06:15 PM   #38
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By Dinan's own published data show the RWHP with thier exhaust should be 350 rwhp and 342 rwhp with just a tune only, unfortunately peoples published results do not seem to be anywhere near that.

It sucks to go to the Dyno expecting at least 350rwhp and only seeing 312rwhp this is why its so important to get a before dyno so you only look at the gains.
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      06-24-2008, 06:18 PM   #39
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lets wait and see when winter falls and its freezing outside how the numbers look.

if you've existed in boost heritage all your life you damn well know this crap gas and hot season is the worst time of ownership. hell i'd never own a turbo if i could only drive it in the summer (ATL). It's winter time when the fun really begins.

fwiw my stage 1+ apr makes about +0whp in this hot temperature and about 40ft/lb peak torque gain (small turbos make an inverted torque curve) but in winter that goes up to about +40whp and +90wft/lb beause the heatsoak kills. This 10% ethanol which is going to increase no matter what is about as assy as the oxygenated 91 that california folks had back in the days. do you think dinan really imports 93 octane to morgan-hill to rock out? i can understand fresh 100 octane but there's no science to rolling your own octane and throwing a chip out.

It's pretty clear that folks who are de-tuning their map aggressiveness on their piggybacks are getting more power; that says something about the initial design. Why would you design a piggyback that requires you to detune it in summer to make more power? Oh perhaps they forgot to pull timing enough using the AIT/Coolant sensor in the first place? Or perhaps something has changed around the world (heat,effective octane) that is just making power suck.

Wouldn't suprise me if they took a can of R134a/co2/nitrous and hit the intercooler to get a good dyno to sell numbers (and i'm talking about everyone).

Give it some time to cool off to winter, you'll get your power back. It's been the same way for me for the last 10 years between supercharged and turbo (and twin-charged).

Nice thing about all motor its consistent even when you hotlap it. had alot of fun with the LS1 could run 20 hotlaps with zero staging time and click off the same numbers(automatic) every run. I wouldn't even go there with the 335i as i don't think running oil near shear temp (275 for most synthetics) at 15K interval is sane.
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      06-24-2008, 06:18 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Dirt View Post
By Dinan's own published data show the RWHP with thier exhaust should be 350 rwhp and 342 rwhp with just a tune only, unfortunately peoples published results do not seem to be anywhere near that.

It sucks to go to the Dyno expecting at least 350rwhp and only seeing 312rwhp this is why its so important to get a before dyno so you only look at the gains.
I am still kicking myself in the ass for never doing a baseline dyno.
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      06-24-2008, 06:28 PM   #41
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I have Dinan stage II flash and here were my numbers:

Dyno Run 1: 328.2rwhp; 349.2rwtq
Dyno Run 2: 328.9rwhp; 359.4rwtq
Dyno Run 3: 323.6rwhp; 361.5rwtq

These numbers are higher than the OP's (not sure why because I was on dynojet also).

These numbers are on par with Dinan's claim of 380hp and 420ftlb. Just to round:

330rwhp = .868 x 380hp = 13.2% drivetrain loss (acceptable)
360rwtq = .857 x 420tq = 14.3% drivetrain loss (acceptable)

And note, these numbers were done in 99F, 25% humidity weather.

I think it's a little premature to say that Dinan is "sketchy" and imply that they are lying about their figures without more information. Do you really think Dinan would become the success they have on a foundation of lies? Do you really think you're the first one to question and check their numbers?
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      06-24-2008, 06:31 PM   #42
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Possibly in Dinan's defense, I do recall reading that they have a well equiped dyno with fans to simulate highway speeds. If so, the numbers on less adequate dynos would show lower.

That said, put one of the other tunes on Dinan's dyno and we would see noticeably higher numbers. My car might make 375 WHP with just the tune.
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      06-24-2008, 06:33 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjoon161 View Post
Hey all,

Here are all of my mods, Dinan II Rev 2, Dinan Front/Rear Sway Bars, Dinan Exhaust, KW V2. The Dynos, CDV Delete Mod and the KW V2 were done at PandL Motorsports in Franklin Park, IL and they did great job!

BTW, if any of you were thinking about getting the KW V2's, just get it, it's absolutely amazing!
Thanks for posting, OP! I just ordered some KWv2's and UUC front & rear sways from james************... should be arriving at the end of this week and I'm gonna install 'em with a buddy of mine next week sometime. Will post review as soon as I get a chance!!
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      06-24-2008, 06:39 PM   #44
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Quote:
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330rwhp = .868 x 380hp = 13.2% drivetrain loss (acceptable)
360rwtq = .857 x 420tq = 14.3% drivetrain loss (acceptable)
Damn so V3 and intake puts down:

365rwhp = .868 x 421hp = 13.2% drivetrain loss
380rwtq = .857 x 443trq = 14.3% drivetrain loss


Time for Shiv to do some new marketing for V3. V3 and dual cones offer 420 crank hp and 440 crank trq....
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