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      06-27-2008, 11:55 AM   #1
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DBA 5000/Hawk Race

Hey,
Next Monday I'll be ordering a pair of DBA 5000 2-Piece Slotted Front Rotors and a pair of Hawk HP Plus Race Front Pads. Will I have a brake bias issue? I could go ahead and get DBA 4000 rotors for the rear but TireRack has no pads listed for the rear? Are my only options the Centric Posi Quiet for the rear?

I'm doing all this for a three day track weekend at Pocono Raceway in mid-July (18th-20th) so I don't care about noise or dust...just stopping power.

Thanks,
Dave
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      06-29-2008, 08:22 AM   #2
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bump?
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      06-30-2008, 06:29 PM   #3
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Why are you buying the HP+? Those can't handle track conditions if you are an advanced driver.
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      06-30-2008, 08:25 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by longodj View Post
Hey,
Next Monday I'll be ordering a pair of DBA 5000 2-Piece Slotted Front Rotors and a pair of Hawk HP Plus Race Front Pads. Will I have a brake bias issue? I could go ahead and get DBA 4000 rotors for the rear but TireRack has no pads listed for the rear? Are my only options the Centric Posi Quiet for the rear?

I'm doing all this for a three day track weekend at Pocono Raceway in mid-July (18th-20th) so I don't care about noise or dust...just stopping power.

Thanks,
Dave
I had DBA 4000's with Ultimates on the front and while it improved braking it wasn't enough to shift biasing to a noticeable extent. Biggest improvement was less fade.
Now I've switched up to Rotora BBK front and back. I installed the front first and man, was there a shift in the bias. These guys running around with just a BBK in front are definitely experiencing that. I got the back set in and it balanced things out nicely.

If you want a very big improvment in braking power consider going BBK. One word of caution though, the K1's wont fit.
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      06-30-2008, 09:50 PM   #5
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leftcoastman: I'm not an experienced driver :-P Pocono will be my fourth track day, I'm in NASA HPDE 2. Also, this car is used on the street so I can't exactly use the Hawk Track pads...

Magna3: exactly. I can't get a BBK until I upgrade my track AND street wheels...too expensive, rather spend it on the suspension
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      06-30-2008, 10:41 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by longodj View Post
leftcoastman: I'm not an experienced driver :-P Pocono will be my fourth track day, I'm in NASA HPDE 2. Also, this car is used on the street so I can't exactly use the Hawk Track pads...

Magna3: exactly. I can't get a BBK until I upgrade my track AND street wheels...too expensive, rather spend it on the suspension
OK - if you're just learning, stick with the stock stuff - at most upgrade to HP+ pads.

FWIW - I am an instructor and run stock brake calipers, stock lines, RBF600 and race pads. And I don't get fade even at tracks with multiple 140->70 braking zones.

Once you get more seat time under your butt, think about track pads. I can swap out my pads in about 5 minutes per corner now.
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      06-30-2008, 10:47 PM   #7
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"I can swap out my pads in about 5 minutes per corner now." Neat

I'm just doing stock calipers, stock lines, RBF600, 2-piece rotors (for weight more than anything else), and the HP+ pads. I just didn't feel so nice when my brakes weren't biting a few feet from a Porsche Thanks for the help!
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      06-30-2008, 10:53 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by longodj View Post
"I can swap out my pads in about 5 minutes per corner now." Neat

I'm just doing stock calipers, stock lines, RBF600, 2-piece rotors (for weight more than anything else), and the HP+ pads. I just didn't feel so nice when my brakes weren't biting a few feet from a Porsche Thanks for the help!
Haha I know the feeling.

Was the pedal soft or was it hard but didn't provide you with any slowing force? The former is fluid fade and the latter is pad fade. Solve the specific problem, don't just throw bling at it. I will say that stock pads, once they overheat, go byebye.

Unless the DBA provides some insane amount of grip, I can't fathom paying that much for rotors when you can get them from BMW for free under the maintenance program.

Other guys I know go through rotors like cotton candy. 3-4 sets a year. the race pads really eat em up.
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      06-30-2008, 11:03 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leftcoastman View Post
Haha I know the feeling.

Was the pedal soft or was it hard but didn't provide you with any slowing force? The former is fluid fade and the latter is pad fade. Solve the specific problem, don't just throw bling at it. I will say that stock pads, once they overheat, go byebye.

Unless the DBA provides some insane amount of grip, I can't fathom paying that much for rotors when you can get them from BMW for free under the maintenance program.

Other guys I know go through rotors like cotton candy. 3-4 sets a year. the race pads really eat em up.
lol...welllll you could have chimed in yesterday, they're already in the mail I'll let you know about the grip...they are slotted... It was hard, I know my pads were getting low and HOT! I mean...I just needed new brakes, I could have got them from the dealer but opted to go aftermarket. I'm getting RBF600 because of all the good reviews and hell, why not?
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      07-01-2008, 05:23 PM   #10
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personally, i think the HP+ pads are a poor choice for track use. the maximum operating temperature is not much higher than the stock pads, or the stock replacement hawk HPS pads

you should look into carbotech panther plus. the are similar to the Ferodo DS2500 pads. If you still overheat those, you need dedicated track pads.

Lastly, have you considered re-evaluating the way you are using the brakes? perhaps you are employing excessively late braking? since it is a DE and not a money race you may want to consider less aggressive braking application in order to introduce less heat into the system

At the HPDE 2 level i personally find there is much more benefit to consistently hitter the marks and attempting to max the corner exit speed, as opposed to maximizing late braking..

my unsolicited $0.02
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      07-01-2008, 05:40 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Nazareno View Post
personally, i think the HP+ pads are a poor choice for track use. the maximum operating temperature is not much higher than the stock pads, or the stock replacement hawk HPS pads

you should look into carbotech panther plus. the are similar to the Ferodo DS2500 pads. If you still overheat those, you need dedicated track pads.

Lastly, have you considered re-evaluating the way you are using the brakes? perhaps you are employing excessively late braking? since it is a DE and not a money race you may want to consider less aggressive braking application in order to introduce less heat into the system

At the HPDE 2 level i personally find there is much more benefit to consistently hitter the marks and attempting to max the corner exit speed, as opposed to maximizing late braking..

my unsolicited $0.02
I'm not really pushing late braking that aggressively...the only time I was really really getting into trouble was when I guess my instructor was trying to grow me some balls and was forcing me to get up on a Porsche and he hit his brakes a bit more than I was expecting.

Crap...now after all of you guys are questioning Hawk pads I might have to order something else and return those Hawks....damnit...
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      07-01-2008, 05:47 PM   #12
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Um....ok so if I went with something like the Raybestos would I need to basically toss my pads and rotors after track season? I'm only going to another three or four weekends this year.... The thing is I do a hell of a lot more street driving than track driving so I figured the Hawk would be an OK compromise.....
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      07-01-2008, 05:57 PM   #13
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OK now you guys have me worried :-P I'm thinking that the Porterfield R4-S will be ok? Realistically I'm not an experienced driver and I'm not going to be destroying my brakes with ultra late braking so it can be classified as "light track use" and these R4-S are rated for the street and autocross.

What do you think? Please let me know ASAP because if you guys give me the OK I'll have to order these immediately for next weeks shop visit :-/
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      07-01-2008, 06:27 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by longodj View Post
OK now you guys have me worried :-P I'm thinking that the Porterfield R4-S will be ok? Realistically I'm not an experienced driver and I'm not going to be destroying my brakes with ultra late braking so it can be classified as "light track use" and these R4-S are rated for the street and autocross.

What do you think? Please let me know ASAP because if you guys give me the OK I'll have to order these immediately for next weeks shop visit :-/

personally, i would not purchase the porterfield R4S pad because many sites say 'not for track use' in big bold red letters next to the pad description. in my mind i put the porterfield R4S in the 'street pad' category along with Hawk hp/hp+

i've had good experiences in the past with carbotech panther plus (on a WRX used for HPDE.. similar weight to my E90 328). they have a decent max operating temp and i have personally verified they do not cause excessive rotor wear when cold, and have sufficient stopping power when cold to be streetable.

here are the stats on panther plus: MOT 1250F, mu of 0.56 (for comparison.. hawk hps/hp+ MOT is 750F, hawk blue is 1050F and hawk HT10 is 1400F)

i've used stock E90 brakes for DE at infineon at t-hill with no issues, but then again i have a somewhat lighter, much less powerful 328. good luck with your search!
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      07-01-2008, 06:42 PM   #15
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Honestly man, swap the stock fluid to RBF600 and try again.

With the free maintenance, I am utterly unconvinced that paying $800-1000 for glitzy slotted rotors is a smart thing to do. Your minimal weight savings isn't going to do you a bit of good right now. Spend that money on more track time and instruction, unless having bling is important to you.

If, with the RBF600 you are getting hard pedal and no "grip", then buy a set of HT-10 for $159 and swap em out for each track day. Then do your easygoing street driving on the free stock pads/rotors.

Track pads squeal/groan/dust really bad but they work very well. My friend has HP+ and they squeal like crap, but then suck on track after 12-15 minutes. why get the worst of both worlds?
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      07-01-2008, 06:43 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by longodj View Post
Um....ok so if I went with something like the Raybestos would I need to basically toss my pads and rotors after track season? I'm only going to another three or four weekends this year.... The thing is I do a hell of a lot more street driving than track driving so I figured the Hawk would be an OK compromise.....
Swap em out for track weekends. And use stock rotors.
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      07-01-2008, 09:05 PM   #17
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ugh...that makes so much sense.... I guess I'll return the brakes and get the maintenance pads/rotors and spend the money on DE weekends. I never thought of that. Genius leftcoastman genius! I'll use the money on DE weekends and then figure out some crazy plan to swap both my 17 in wheel sets for 18s and get a BBK next year. thanks for your help guys
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      07-02-2008, 12:29 AM   #18
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get a BBK next year
wow.. you've got the mod bug big time
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      07-02-2008, 02:24 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Nazareno View Post
wow.. you've got the mod bug big time
Yes I do...I'm trying to do it somewhat systematically at least. Like...go suspension/brakes as I'm learning and add power...maybe after next track season after I have two seasons under my belt. I want this to become a dedicated track car after my warranty is up and I've used it a good amount (after college/grad school....2010??.....100,000 mi probably?) so I don't see any harm in modding the car. So far I've only done a sway and have 6 autocrosses and 3 track days before even that. One autocross with the rear sway, will have another with the KW and camber plates before going on track again. I'll be doing two more weekends at Pocono and two at Watkins Glen. Idk...I think I'm earning my mods

I certainly felt a need for the rear sway...there was no question. My car was understeering hard core and the roll was inexcusable. My sway fixed that issue perfectly. Now there is a bit of front twist so I'm waiting on the new front sway. I'm getting the coilovers to further combat the roll and just generally plant the car better. The brakes were purely a concern for my life move....but I guess I don't.....NEED them..... The only other thing I'm doing to my car this year is I'm looking for strut braces just to further tighten everything up. My dual cone air intake was a joke lol, I like the sound. I'm still on "street" tires. My RE-01Rs aren't giving me some unfair advantage...they still slip. They also squeal like a bitch so they are quite educational.

lol I hope you don't think I'm just some guy trying to get ahead in HPDEs and autocross with mods. That is not my intention at all. I have picked up considerable time by modding the driver and I fully intend to continue that practice.
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      07-02-2008, 10:37 AM   #20
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I have an almost new set of Porterfield rear R4E pads for sale in classifieds. will sell at great price. PM me.
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      07-02-2008, 02:43 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by longodj View Post
Yes I do...I'm trying to do it somewhat systematically at least. Like...go suspension/brakes as I'm learning and add power...maybe after next track season after I have two seasons under my belt. I want this to become a dedicated track car after my warranty is up and I've used it a good amount (after college/grad school....2010??.....100,000 mi probably?) so I don't see any harm in modding the car. So far I've only done a sway and have 6 autocrosses and 3 track days before even that. One autocross with the rear sway, will have another with the KW and camber plates before going on track again. I'll be doing two more weekends at Pocono and two at Watkins Glen. Idk...I think I'm earning my mods

I certainly felt a need for the rear sway...there was no question. My car was understeering hard core and the roll was inexcusable. My sway fixed that issue perfectly. Now there is a bit of front twist so I'm waiting on the new front sway. I'm getting the coilovers to further combat the roll and just generally plant the car better. The brakes were purely a concern for my life move....but I guess I don't.....NEED them..... The only other thing I'm doing to my car this year is I'm looking for strut braces just to further tighten everything up. My dual cone air intake was a joke lol, I like the sound. I'm still on "street" tires. My RE-01Rs aren't giving me some unfair advantage...they still slip. They also squeal like a bitch so they are quite educational.

lol I hope you don't think I'm just some guy trying to get ahead in HPDEs and autocross with mods. That is not my intention at all. I have picked up considerable time by modding the driver and I fully intend to continue that practice.
I found a supplier of Ferodo DS2500 pads which are for light track and street so will see what the part number is. The Axxis ULT are a lot better than stock pads and I love them for autocross but they fall a bit short for the track as if you overheat them they will crap all over the rotors. If you can restrain yourself they will cut it for the time being.

As for rotors, I got the DBA rotors and I completely regret it. I am going back to the stock rotors ASAP.

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      07-03-2008, 05:54 PM   #22
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Quote:
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lol I hope you don't think I'm just some guy trying to get ahead in HPDEs and autocross with mods.
i didn't mean my last post as a value judgement

just found it interesting you are already budgeting for a rotor/caliper part swap before verifying whether stock calipers and rotors will be sufficient along with different pad material and brake fluid

also IMHO roll isn't something that necessarily needs to be fixed, and understeer could be caused by a user's inputs

i'm fairly cautious about spending money on my vehicle so i'm probably doing a fair bit of projecting here
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