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      08-06-2008, 10:59 PM   #67
FourPtDrift
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Originally Posted by sayemthree View Post
LOL
go with a E36 M3. it's lighter and more sportcar than the e46!
You know... the E30 M3 is lighter than the E36... and its more sportcar....

But... wait... this just in...

The 2002 Tti is lighter than the E30 M3....

-Daniel
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      08-06-2008, 11:40 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by FourPtDrift View Post
Let's not confuse "like" with "making it work." Don't get me wrong, I WANT, VERY much an LSD. It just isn't happening now.
Yeah just a little surprised too that you went for a BBK before LSD. With race pads and RBF600, I'm fade free for 30 minute sessions in 90+ heat with multiple 140+ mph braking zones. Wasn't the BBK over $7k?

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I don't know. Maybe your suspension was a bit too soft? What do you have at your corners?
I have double adjustable TC Kline coilovers.


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And so, obviously, this makes the right solution for YOU because you understand the difference and you also are cognizant that you must make the change.
Yeah you're right, but I would assume that anyone who would purchase adjustable camber plates for track use would adjust them. If not, you shouldn't be using anything other than stock anyways, as your skill level probably doesn't call for anything more. (not to you specifically)


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Understood. What size rims? The performance characteristics of each tire changes as its aspect ratio changes. So how one tire works for you at one size is NOT how it will work for the next guy at a different size.
I guess I really don't understand how that makes much of a difference. If I have X amount of grip up front and X amount in the back, it really doesn't matter which tire/rim I am assuming. Having a square setup means that it's exactly the same and the proportional balance will be the same. If I put 255 race rubber on 10 inch rims on all four corners and it understeers...and then put 225 on 6 inch rims on all four corners, the BALANCE will still be the same, just the absolute level of group went down.

I guess I'm just really curious how you get the car to be neutral. The prevailing experience so far among instructor level track junkies on this board (s4to335, sg335, myself, etc.) has been that a square setup is the ticket to neutrality.

But the more I think about it, the more I think perhaps your swaybar setup is compensating for the understeer-prone suspension/tire setup. I wonder what the spring rates are on the KWV3. If you have massive differential there, that could also help the rear end kick out.

So the bottom line is that there are many paths to neutrality and to each their own. Too bad we don't have the Stig nearby to test and see which is faster, lol.

Cheers.
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      08-07-2008, 12:01 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FourPtDrift View Post
Let me get this straight... you're concerned about installing a performance suspension kit... and you're going with tire company that reference a design firm as the source behind their tread pattern? What the...???

So long as not getting a full contact patch with a truly and solely performance oriented tire is not part of the deal... why do you care what suspension components you put on the car... and how they perform?

Rethink the priorities... and then start again.

-Daniel
Ive read nothing but good reviews about them from Z06 members running them on trackdays (non-drag). Seemed like fairly good tires for the car given I cant quite live with RE-01R's because I see rain constantly, and temps here are often times not so high randomly. I cant be switching around too often, too much headache.

I dont mean this to be a constantly track driven car, just once in a while. Thus the need for tires that can double, knowing full well ill burn through them faster

I'm also aware the eibach/koni setup isnt exactly...extreme on the suspension side, and thats the reason I avoided coilovers as well, since I dont plan on tracking much, just occasionally.

I'm just trying to get a sporty ride, without messing it up. I see too many people dropping their car to the ground, and adding every part they read about "helps" but never taking the time to look into the detail of making the ride balanced. Thus, why I'm asking you for help choosing. It seems to me that you know much more about it than I do. But please keep in mind my parameters for the car, its driven in chicago, so my choice of koni fsd/eibach was purposeful, better ride quality, slightly tighter handling characteristics.

So my question becomes, I realize that getting R compound tires (or something quite close) is best and ideal for the track. but being that I'm unwilling to use R-compounds for my daily driver, what items can I add besides eibach/fsd, that would get my car to a balanced suspension setup, that would be ok on an occasional track day

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      08-07-2008, 12:41 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by leftcoastman View Post
Yeah just a little surprised too that you went for a BBK before LSD. With race pads and RBF600, I'm fade free for 30 minute sessions in 90+ heat with multiple 140+ mph braking zones. Wasn't the BBK over $7k?
Emphasis on the use of the word, "over."

LSD is not a clear cut option because of the production run of my car. And, I wanted some degree of convenience... yes, changing pad material for temps does work... but I wanted to be able to go back and forth, street to track and have consistent braking in any environment, always, all the time. There's that... and the most important feature of the Brembo GranTurismo solution is brake modulation. The factory calipers are just not that good. Trail breaking effectively requires brakes that can be modulated effectively. The degree of control the Brembo solution offers is phenomenal. The science of producing a braking solution that doesn't fade isn't that complicated. You pointed that out. But making a braking solution that offers sublime control and works consistently and continuously, that's something special and that's why I got the GranTurismos.


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I have double adjustable TC Kline coilovers.
Very, very good product. Who set them up?

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Yeah you're right, but I would assume that anyone who would purchase adjustable camber plates for track use would adjust them. If not, you shouldn't be using anything other than stock anyways, as your skill level probably doesn't call for anything more. (not to you specifically)
Sure. Your logic plays well in theory, but in practice, its rarely the case. Just look at these forums. Do you really thing that even half of the forum membership with a list of performance mods as long as my arm a.) knows how to get any real gain out of the products they've purchased and/or b.) has the components properly implemented?

The stock 335... even without the sport's kit, is well beyond the ability of most drivers... and the stock sport kit is plenty good I'm sure for a large percentage of this forum. But this doesn't stop the enthusiastic young driver from going crazy with components that are well out of their skill level.

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I guess I really don't understand how that makes much of a difference. If I have X amount of grip up front and X amount in the back, it really doesn't matter which tire/rim I am assuming.
Absolutely not true. The E92 is NOT a spritely car. And a corner loaded car delivers a tremendous amount of stress... much more so than most performance tires are intended to deal with on a regular basis. Just because a PS2 or comparable product works well on a 911 doesn't mean its going to be the same on a 335. So, the RE-01R with its considerably strong sidewall at a larger than spec's balance (245 in place of 235) is just enough to make sure the front end rotates cleanly and consistently.

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Having a square setup means that it's exactly the same and the proportional balance will be the same.
Sure... but you're not taking into account sidewall flex with respect to cornering. Remember, rolling resistance is accelerated with the lateral force of cornering and this changes the dynamic of grip, irrespective of a staggered or square setup.

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If I put 255 race rubber on 10 inch rims on all four corners and it understeers...and then put 225 on 6 inch rims on all four corners, the BALANCE will still be the same, just the absolute level of group went down.
You're focusing only on contact patch. Sidewall flex is your missing element.

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I guess I'm just really curious how you get the car to be neutral. The prevailing experience so far among instructor level track junkies on this board (s4to335, sg335, myself, etc.) has been that a square setup is the ticket to neutrality.
It is usually, but not always, an easy solution, but it is not the ONLY solution.

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But the more I think about it, the more I think perhaps your swaybar setup is compensating for the understeer-prone suspension/tire setup. I wonder what the spring rates are on the KWV3. If you have massive differential there, that could also help the rear end kick out.
You are 100% correct on both counts. I had a small boo-boo a while ago where I lost linkage on the front suspension... basically was driving without a front sway bar. The net-effect of the KW's without the front suspension was.... scary.

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So the bottom line is that there are many paths to neutrality and to each their own. Too bad we don't have the Stig nearby to test and see which is faster, lol.
Well, that's easy. My way is faster.

I've include my driver's license photo for your benefit...

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      08-11-2008, 10:24 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by FourPtDrift View Post
Your car is not set correctly. Ask member billspreston, who also had the same config as you and the same problem as your describing what happened after I had my shop change his setup and replace his tires with RE-01R's. See what he says.
l
Couldn't be any more true. I have KWV2s and used to have General Exclaim tires on my MORR VS7s. My car used to handle very poorly. I didn't realize how bad it was until I had a chance to drive an E46 M3. After driving that M3 I couldn't believe how much more planted that car was and how confidence inspiring it was through the corners. Needless to say, I was extremely disappointed with the way my car was handling at this point and knew that it should be better.

Under the guidance of Daniel, I took the car in to Lucent Motors and had them adjust the suspensions settings (rebound/dampening settings, raised the rear to allow increased compression, fixed whacky toe-in in the front) and most importantly - had them swap those crap General tires out for some RE-01Rs. When I got the car back I found the car had been completely transformed to the point where I was disappointed that I had been driving the car for nearly a year in such a poor performing state. My car used to roll badly through corners and be very unpredictable. Not so with the RE-01Rs. I noticed the stiffer sidewalls and increased grip immediately. I no longer push my through corners because the tires are doing their job staying as flat and true as possible. The car now feels better than the E46 I drove and I couldn't be happier. It grips solid through corners and the back-end is waaayyy more predictable. I'm sold on the Bridgestones and I'm never turning back
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      08-11-2008, 05:49 PM   #72
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I wonder if someone at BMW actually cares about this. The car shouldn't limp at at all in stock form, no matter how hard you hammer on it
No-they only care about it getting past warranty.
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      08-11-2008, 05:59 PM   #73
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BTW guys..this weekend at the track...limp modes and CELs at 94 degrees ambient air temps..oil only got to 292 degrees on one occasion..but the limp mode continued after I turned the car off then on again. I gotta go back to the dealer to try to figure this one out.

So, to answer your original question. This car could be an occasional track vehicle..but if you drive hard and fast..you are gonna have to content with stuff not being able to hack the pressure. I have upgraded brakes/suspension(coilover)/exhaust/wheels/tires and I definitely have overheating related issues on track. I also dont have the fundage to get a Dinan oil cooler..and a bigger custom radiator.
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      08-11-2008, 08:01 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S4to335 View Post
BTW guys..this weekend at the track...limp modes and CELs at 94 degrees ambient air temps..oil only got to 292 degrees on one occasion..but the limp mode continued after I turned the car off then on again. I gotta go back to the dealer to try to figure this one out.

So, to answer your original question. This car could be an occasional track vehicle..but if you drive hard and fast..you are gonna have to content with stuff not being able to hack the pressure. I have upgraded brakes/suspension(coilover)/exhaust/wheels/tires and I definitely have overheating related issues on track. I also dont have the fundage to get a Dinan oil cooler..and a bigger custom radiator.
I can't remember... is your car a step or a manual? What track were you at? How long was the power cycle on your car? Do you have BMW comfort access.. and if so, did you walk away from the car between power cycles? (yes, this actually makes a difference)

-Daniel
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      08-11-2008, 08:36 PM   #75
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what items can I add besides eibach/fsd, that would get my car to a balanced suspension setup, that would be ok on an occasional track day
Hi, if you are an occasional track user I think you should go back to stock (including the stock RFT) and go drive the crap out of the car.

I am convinced that stock + crap loads of track time on 'decent' street tires (prior to E90 I've used Falken RT215 and RT615) is the fastest way to become fast

my $0.02
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      08-11-2008, 10:08 PM   #76
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BTW guys..this weekend at the track...limp modes and CELs at 94 degrees ambient air temps..oil only got to 292 degrees on one occasion..but the limp mode continued after I turned the car off then on again. I gotta go back to the dealer to try to figure this one out.

So, to answer your original question. This car could be an occasional track vehicle..but if you drive hard and fast..you are gonna have to content with stuff not being able to hack the pressure. I have upgraded brakes/suspension(coilover)/exhaust/wheels/tires and I definitely have overheating related issues on track. I also dont have the fundage to get a Dinan oil cooler..and a bigger custom radiator.
When does limp occur? Are you above 6500rpm for any length of time as this was recently indicated as a probable cause unrelated to coolant and oil temps. That sucks. You just hope the guy trailing right behind you when it happens does not run into you as he anticipates your acceleration only to find out there is none!
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      08-12-2008, 12:59 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FourPtDrift View Post
I can't remember... is your car a step or a manual? What track were you at? How long was the power cycle on your car? Do you have BMW comfort access.. and if so, did you walk away from the car between power cycles? (yes, this actually makes a difference)

-Daniel

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How long was the power cycle..? I dont understand what you mean...
After this limp modes happened..I turned the car off..and immediately turned it back on. Maybe 2 seconds in between off and on again. In between sessions was probably 50-60 minutes or more. I let my car run slightly in the paddock to cool down..with the hood up.
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      08-12-2008, 09:40 AM   #78
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Does anyone know if 18x9 40mm offset will fit all four corners of a 335 E92? I have OZ track wheels for my E46 M3 that I would like to use with my 335, If i get one. The tire size is 265/35/18 with a 20mm spacer in the rear. Thanks
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      08-12-2008, 10:14 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by 03SG///M3 View Post
Does anyone know if 18x9 40mm offset will fit all four corners of a 335 E92? I have OZ track wheels for my E46 M3 that I would like to use with my 335, If i get one. The tire size is 265/35/18 with a 20mm spacer in the rear. Thanks
The rear would need a less aggressive spacer, ~10-8mm less. I'm almost positive the front fenders of an E92 are not going to accommodate 265/35-18
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      08-12-2008, 10:43 AM   #80
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Does anyone know if 18x9 40mm offset will fit all four corners of a 335 E92? I have OZ track wheels for my E46 M3 that I would like to use with my 335, If i get one. The tire size is 265/35/18 with a 20mm spacer in the rear. Thanks
Front wheels won't work. I have 17x8.5 with ET40 and I have literally less than 6mm to strut tube (both stock and now with TCKline). A 5mm spacer MIGHT work, but then you better have tons of negative camber or you'll rub on the outside. Rears should work fine without spacer.

I run 17inch 255s all around and it fits perfectly.
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      08-12-2008, 12:52 PM   #81
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Quote:
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Front wheels won't work. I have 17x8.5 with ET40 and I have literally less than 6mm to strut tube (both stock and now with TCKline). A 5mm spacer MIGHT work, but then you better have tons of negative camber or you'll rub on the outside. Rears should work fine without spacer.

I run 17inch 255s all around and it fits perfectly.
The One Lap 335 ran 18x9 OZ Ultraleggera rims (ET40) with 265/35/18 all around with heavy camber and they didn't have problems...maybe they did use a spacer....
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      08-12-2008, 01:51 PM   #82
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The One Lap 335 ran 18x9 OZ Ultraleggera rims (ET40) with 265/35/18 all around with heavy camber and they didn't have problems...maybe they did use a spacer....
I only use spacers in the rear and I'm running a lot of camber. -3.5 in the front and -2.5 in the rear.... Maybe they will work with camber since those are the wheels i have??
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      08-12-2008, 02:30 PM   #83
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I only use spacers in the rear and I'm running a lot of camber. -3.5 in the front and -2.5 in the rear.... Maybe they will work with camber since those are the wheels i have??
hmm well try it...now I'm reading the one lap guys may have used 19's....wtf....idk Definitely report back though because I'm looking into TC Kline/Rays wheels in 18x9 as one of my options and those are ET40 as well
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      08-12-2008, 02:47 PM   #84
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I only use spacers in the rear and I'm running a lot of camber. -3.5 in the front and -2.5 in the rear.... Maybe they will work with camber since those are the wheels i have??
Camber in front won't help squat.

The wheel inside lip is about to hit the stock (and TC Kline) struts. With my 17x8.5 ET40, it is less than 6mm away from being wheel metal on strut tube metal.

Add another 0.25 inch on that side and you'll have some metal rub-a-dub.

Even if you go to -15 degrees of camber, the wheel/strut relative location does not change. Perhaps the RRT One Lap car was running a front strut that was smaller diameter...or they were running a spacer.
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      08-13-2008, 01:07 AM   #85
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Remember I bought the test fitment OZ wheel in 18x9 as well as test fit the TCK Rays wheel, both a 40 offset. Both need a 5mm spacer in front to give adequate clearance especially if you run larger than 245. An 18x9 ET40 will hit the strut without the tire mounted. First hand experience. You may even want to run a 10mm spacer. Be sure it is hubcentric in 10mm. It does not have to be for a 3 or 5mm in the front. Don't use the 3 or 5mm in the rear. And remember to use longer lugs or get studs. Be aware that running a spacer in front will extend the wheel/tire to the outside and with stock camber, you will rub on full compression especially with a lowered suspension. More neg camber is required. 265's on the 9" with ET40 and 10mm spacer will work only if you use a min of 2-2.25 neg camber. 2.5 to 3-5 is preferred.
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      08-25-2008, 11:08 PM   #86
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Fourpt - I'm surprised you like the antisways without an LSD.

When I had the sways on, I got sooo much wheelspin on corner exit unless I was super-ginger on the throttle. I just watched people power away from me on corner exit since any application of throttle on my part would just result in inside tire spin. Now I have Quaife, but I still didn't like the way the sways made the car felt, so I removed them.

Regarding the plates - adjustable camber plates do not have that problem. I can run nearly zero camber on street and within 10 minutes, set it to -3.5 for track use.

You clearly make your setup work for you, but I can't understand how you have MORE neg in back and MORE tire in back and still have a neutral car.

I'm running a square setup, -3.5 in front, -2 in back and I'm perfectly neutral. I've run RE01R, Victoracers and the NT-01. Balance didn't change much since any tire brand changes were done to all four corners.

I guess different strokes for different styles.

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      08-26-2008, 12:42 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S4to335 View Post
Manual
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No comfort access
How long was the power cycle..? I dont understand what you mean...
After this limp modes happened..I turned the car off..and immediately turned it back on. Maybe 2 seconds in between off and on again. In between sessions was probably 50-60 minutes or more. I let my car run slightly in the paddock to cool down..with the hood up.
There's one clue... only 2 seconds. Of course, you don't have the comfort access... so that might make a difference. I've found that the only real way to get everything to clear is to shut down the car and if the car is comfort access equipped, exit the car and lock it. The car has to be shut down and powered off for at least 30 seconds before it is powered on again to really make sure that the issue has been cleared.

-Daniel
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      08-26-2008, 10:31 AM   #88
leftcoastman
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Drives: 335i
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Quote:
Originally Posted by westwest888 View Post
With respect to the neutral handling debate, someone had an index card at the track with a column for "component", a column for "reduce understeer" and a column for "increase oversteer". Each row on the card was a started with component you could adjust ordered by effectiveness. It went something like:

tire pressure
sway bars
spring stiffness
shock stiffness
camber
contact patch
spoiler

There were several other areas. Each box on the grid had inputs like "increase pressure", "decrease rear stiffness", etc. It would be cool if someone out there could post this. I think it was a boiler plate kind of thing.
See

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166042
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