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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > BMW Technician explanation for turbo lag



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      08-17-2008, 11:35 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Driver72 View Post
I think those results are the result of various people's perception of the lag, and that's what is random, NOT the lag issue that is random.

The fact of the matter is, IF you have a car made AFTER 3/08 it's wastegates are both open, which ADDS the lag.
If you have had your ECU reflashed from cars made BEFORE 3/08 you will have increased lag.

Again, the reason for the various responses on lag, is simply because the various views of what each person considers lag.
However, if these people with cars made 3/08 or after was to drive a pre 3/08 made car with one wastegate that is closed at idle and down low in the rpm, they would notice that there is less lag.

Those that responded that they have lag in cars made before 3/08 probably HAVEN'T driven a car made after 3/08 or had their ECU reflashed, otherwise they'd probably feel that their car in fact does NOT have the lag of the newer made cars or reflashed cars.
But, then their are people that STILL would not be able to tell the difference because they are not as acute to those type of things.

I'm glad I have a pre 3/08 made car and will do whatever I can to NOT have my car reflashed, since my wastegates are rattling either.
Hopefully BMW will figure out a different way to solve that rattle.
That's probably the best explanation for why it seems to be a mixed bag. I for one have a 5/08 build but I know that mine is vastly different from the 2007 models I test drove. If I had only driven this vehicle I would probably think - hey this isn't too bad, what are these people complaining about.
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      08-17-2008, 11:55 AM   #24
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Either way, the lag does not mean less power, as we've seen in dynos of newer cars which make the same power as cars made before 3/08

It just means you have to adjust your driving style.
It will and should affect "racing" however, where launching the car will require higher rpms and feathering the throttle more. And with rolling races, you'd lose out to other cars you might beat if you do a 5 mph rolling start and the extra lag causes you to fall behind a bit at the start.

What would be interesting to see is have several pre 3/08 cars and several post 3/08 cars (all STOCK) do some rolling runs from various gears starting at 1000 rpms.

The pre 3/08 cars should get into boost a bit sooner and jump ahead a bit.
That would show the extra lag of the post 3/08 built cars and those with the reflashed ECUs
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      08-17-2008, 02:15 PM   #25
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I'm glad I have a pre 3/08 made car and will do whatever I can to NOT have my car reflashed, since my wastegates are rattling either.
Hopefully BMW will figure out a different way to solve that rattle.
This is precisely the point, and raises the larger issue of BMW solving hardware issues by dumbing down the car with software fixes in order to avoid warranty claims. If the 335i's performance is dumbed down to the level of a 330i, then great, the car has no more hardware issues, and BMW saves on warranty expense, but did we buy a pig in a poke?

It boils down to the definition of "warranty". Does a new car warranty impose an obligation to fix a hardware problem without regard to degradation in the car's performance, or is there a performance standard that needs to be maintained in order for it to truly be a fix? I am very uncomfortable with the direction BMW is taking this, so much so that I am seriously considering not ever taking my 10/06 build to the dealer.

This is a direct result of the increased incorporation of software technologies into engine management, and while it has had great positive effect in the improvement of performance, mileage, and emissions, it seems it is also susceptible to perversion. I fully expect that there will be within a short period of time new legal actions that will further define OE vs. consumer rights over the reprogramming of a car, and as far as I'm concerned the sooner the better. Brian.

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      08-18-2008, 11:48 AM   #26
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BzzzBom, any update from the OP of that 1addicts thread on your question?
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      08-18-2008, 01:46 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by bribro335iA View Post
This is precisely the point, and raises the larger issue of BMW solving hardware issues by dumbing down the car with software fixes in order to avoid warranty claims. If the 335i's performance is dumbed down to the level of a 330i, then great, the car has no more hardware issues, and BMW saves on warranty expense, but did we buy a pig in a poke?

It boils down to the definition of "warranty". Does a new car warranty impose an obligation to fix a hardware problem without regard to degradation in the car's performance, or is there a performance standard that needs to be maintained in order for it to truly be a fix? I am very uncomfortable with the direction BMW is taking this, so much so that I am seriously considering not ever taking my 10/06 build to the dealer.

This is a direct result of the increased incorporation of software technologies into engine management, and while it has had great positive effect in the improvement of performance, mileage, and emissions, it seems it is also susceptible to perversion. I fully expect that there will be within a short period of time new legal actions that will further define OE vs. consumer rights over the reprogramming of a car, and as far as I'm concerned the sooner the better. Brian.

Brian.
Spot on. I regret taking my 9/06 in. And the lack of responsiveness by SAs is annoying, although clearly they have their hands tied on this one.

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      08-18-2008, 09:40 PM   #28
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Well put Bribro. Another part of the problem is that the degradation in performance contradicts what they advertise about the car and what was a major influence for a lot of us to buy it. That along with the fact that they are still touting the no lag on their site and ignoring all of the people who already bought their cars in favor of getting more people to buy them makes this even more aggravating.
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      08-19-2008, 11:39 AM   #29
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Quote:
in pre-v28.2 vehicles, one wastegate was closed at idle to reduce lag. however due to the wastegate rattle noises v28.2 opened both wastegates up to eliminate the rattle,
Hrmm, this engineer seems to have forgotten the actuators are not independantly controlled.
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      08-19-2008, 11:43 AM   #30
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I can't see/hear any difference in bank 1 & bank 2 wastegates at idle. Anyone with better skills want to test this out? It seems to me that if we are to build a strong case, what we need are specific technical details as to what has been done to the software that affects the way that our cars drive.
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      08-19-2008, 11:44 AM   #31
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+1, the duty cycles changed for the wastegates. Maybe the tech was thinking of the exhaust flap??
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      08-19-2008, 03:27 PM   #32
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Is this a good time to say I've felt the turbo lag since my first test drive in 2006? It's always been there...
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      08-19-2008, 04:04 PM   #33
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Quote:
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Is this a good time to say I've felt the turbo lag since my first test drive in 2006? It's always been there...
That might be true, but as Driver72 said, if you were to drive a post 3/08 build, like mine, you would feel a LOT more....
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      08-19-2008, 04:26 PM   #34
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Is this a good time to say I've felt the turbo lag since my first test drive in 2006? It's always been there...
i need to test drive a pre 29.2 car. i test drove a couple of cars but i wasn't ever looking at the 2,000rpm response times. my cars before (g35 and vette) were n/a, i didn't even realize that this "lag" shit even existed on some cars.
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      08-19-2008, 05:40 PM   #35
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Is this a good time to say I've felt the turbo lag since my first test drive in 2006? It's always been there...
If 0.5 seconds is lag, then ok. It was proabably more smooth throttle response than turbo lag. This is a far cry from the FOUR TIMES LONGER the POS car takes now.
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      08-20-2008, 07:13 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by mistermojorizin View Post
i need to test drive a pre 29.2 car. i test drove a couple of cars but i wasn't ever looking at the 2,000rpm response times. my cars before (g35 and vette) were n/a, i didn't even realize that this "lag" shit even existed on some cars.
The difference is huge--it will piss you off. I just hadn't noticed right after delivery--I traded in my e92 while my 135 was being built/shipped. So I was in my parent's extra car--a 2007 Civic.

So when I picked it up--wow was all I thought. It felt really fast (and it is, above 3K RPM)....I noticed the lag, but it seemed to be less pronounced than my previous cars that had turbos....

It wasn't until I drove an 07 335 without the 29.2 that I remembered what the test drive was all about...it will bring it all back for you....they are like two completely different vehicles, especially from a stop...
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      08-20-2008, 08:38 AM   #37
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so I have a 6/08 build, and yeah, now that I think about it, it does lag down low.. but I never drove a previous no-lag build, so I don't really know what I am missing, but I know I don't like it. Today I was in first going about 10 mph, and it floored it, nothing, nothing then whoooooooosh! My camaro smokes the tires if I do that - I realize this isn't a 5.7l v8, but the purpose of two tiny turbo's was to defeat lag that is typical to cars with one big turbo, isn't it? I was never a fan of my brother's DSM with the upgraded 16G turbo, it wasn't very good stoplight to stoplight, just high speed pulls, and was a bitch to launch. I am now broken in and working on launching a laggy car and I don't like it much..
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      08-20-2008, 09:13 AM   #38
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so I have a 6/08 build, and yeah, now that I think about it, it does lag down low.. but I never drove a previous no-lag build, so I don't really know what I am missing, but I know I don't like it. Today I was in first going about 10 mph, and it floored it, nothing, nothing then whoooooooosh! My camaro smokes the tires if I do that - I realize this isn't a 5.7l v8, but the purpose of two tiny turbo's was to defeat lag that is typical to cars with one big turbo, isn't it? I was never a fan of my brother's DSM with the upgraded 16G turbo, it wasn't very good stoplight to stoplight, just high speed pulls, and was a bitch to launch. I am now broken in and working on launching a laggy car and I don't like it much..
Well, suit up and join the fight. Sign in on the "offical 29.2 sign in" thread. Then read through the monster "has anyone contacted bmw" 29.2 thread. Contact BMW NA via phone, email, and then call and get an appointment with a rep set up.
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      08-20-2008, 09:32 PM   #39
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According to BMW the whooosh should kick in around 1400-1500rpm, not around 3000.
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      08-21-2008, 01:40 AM   #40
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I have the noise from the vastgates So I called up my dealer the other day and asked what the do to cure the problem. He said the have a vastgate repairkit and then they upgrade the software. So now I`m afraid to take it in, if its the 29.2 map

So my question is does it cure the rattle from the vastgate?
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      08-21-2008, 08:53 AM   #41
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I have the noise from the vastgates So I called up my dealer the other day and asked what the do to cure the problem. He said the have a vastgate repairkit and then they upgrade the software. So now I`m afraid to take it in, if its the 29.2 map

So my question is does it cure the rattle from the vastgate?
The software will not fix the rattle. It will on some, but my dealer has yet to have that fix it. The software update is mandatory before they are allowed to do the wastgate repair. Mine is going in for the same thing.
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      09-14-2008, 02:11 AM   #42
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Well to be fair, while they did introduce lag, they did it to prevent the wastegate rattle. So they were damned if they do, damned if they didn't, except that a hand full of people (enthusiasts) will notice the lag, while everybody would notice the rattle. So this was the lesser of 2 evils.

Although they should have just fixed the damn wastegates in the first place, lol.
i have a lag and still have the rattle. however, i took the car in for HPFP not wastegate. but according to reports, the new software should of took care of the rattle.

i will wait a few months until i bring the car in for the rattle. hopefully by then they will have fixed the software induced lag problem. plus i am trying to break the fuel pump again so i get new and improved one. (3rd gen.)
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      09-14-2008, 03:09 AM   #43
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I have a 7-07 build and thank goodness i never got the rattle,and there is zero lag.I,m coming from my last two cars being modded Evo,s so i know what lag is.The car drives like the advertisement from BMW about the twin turbo 335i,s lack of lag making it feel like driving a n/a 8.
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      09-15-2008, 10:16 AM   #44
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i have a lag and still have the rattle. however, i took the car in for HPFP not wastegate. but according to reports, the new software should of took care of the rattle.
I have been upgraded to the v29 software and still have the rattle (albeit reduced). And now significantly more lag.

I'm trying to re-schedule the car for the turbo/wastegate replacement, as per step 2 of the SIB (in case software alone doesn't fix it).

Maybe I'll wait until software v30 is available and ask for an upgrade because of the lag...
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