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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Dyno: aFe Pro-Dry S Intake VS Stock Air Box



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      09-08-2008, 12:46 PM   #89
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I dont have one, probably not buying one also. So dont know all the facts

I can understand that these filters have a bigger suface, but isnt the flow the problem overhere :
- they are pretty much restricted from the heat shield side
- when you close the trunk they are probably also pretty much restricted from that side
- they are not open on the top side, I have seen cones that are open
- the first cone blocks the way to the second cone, so I dont think this one sees much
fresh air.

But ofcourse I dont have one, so i cant check
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      09-08-2008, 01:03 PM   #90
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Somebody should dyno the aFe intake minus the heat shield to see if that makes a difference. I can't imagine it'd behave much differently than the other dual air intakes out there that way.
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      09-08-2008, 01:14 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 335i/335d? View Post
I dont have one, probably not buying one also. So dont know all the facts

I can understand that these filters have a bigger suface, but isnt the flow the problem overhere :
- they are pretty much restricted from the heat shield side
- when you close the trunk they are probably also pretty much restricted from that side
- they are not open on the top side, I have seen cones that are open
- the first cone blocks the way to the second cone, so I dont think this one sees much
fresh air.

But of course I dont have one, so i cant check
No; I have the aFe intake and the airflow comes in directly from the oem intake "snorkel" which sits right in front of the first cone filter (closest to the front of the car). Although I didn't get it 'wind tunnel tested,' it's fairly obvious that the airflow (from the snorkel) would go underneath both dual air filters and possibly over them as well. So that's really not an issue. And, yes, they are in fact "open" on the top side (other than the hood closing on top of the entire engine bay, but that shouldn't matter); the heat shield is underneath them and also in front of them (toward the passenger side); so again, no real airflow impedance there either.
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      09-08-2008, 01:24 PM   #92
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No; I have the aFe intake and the airflow comes in directly from the oem intake "snorkel" which sits right in front of the first cone filter (closest to the front of the car). Although I didn't get it 'wind tunnel tested,' it's fairly obvious that the airflow (from the snorkel) would go underneath both dual air filters and possibly over them as well. So that's really not an issue. And, yes, they are in fact "open" on the top side; the heat shield is underneath them and also in front of them (toward the passenger side); so again, no real airflow impedance there either.
...thanks for clarifying!

so the suface is okay, the airflow is okay. So what is left what can cause the low performace; IAT and intake route (from filter to inlet manifold) The dual cones probably have the same or even worse IAT.
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      09-08-2008, 01:28 PM   #93
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Dam did i just pay $400 bucks to lose power in my car.
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      09-08-2008, 02:41 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sflgator View Post
No; I have the aFe intake and the airflow comes in directly from the oem intake "snorkel" which sits right in front of the first cone filter (closest to the front of the car). Although I didn't get it 'wind tunnel tested,' it's fairly obvious that the airflow (from the snorkel) would go underneath both dual air filters and possibly over them as well. So that's really not an issue. And, yes, they are in fact "open" on the top side (other than the hood closing on top of the entire engine bay, but that shouldn't matter); the heat shield is underneath them and also in front of them (toward the passenger side); so again, no real airflow impedance there either.
What is going to make the airflow come through the snorkel? With the stocke aribox, that's the only source of air, and the airbox "sucks" air through the snorkle. With the aFe intake, won't the air just get sucked from the drivers side of the car, which would be a less restrictive path?
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      09-08-2008, 03:09 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by hotrod182 View Post
Too bad someone can't test track results. Make some runs with the stock box, and then with the AFE. Or at least some accelerometer testing. 3 stock, and then make 3 witht the AFE. Dyno numbers sometimes don't replicate real world conditions as we have seen before.
I nominate Hotrod182 to do the instrumented testing for us!
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      09-08-2008, 03:15 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klepper1 View Post
What is going to make the airflow come through the snorkel? With the stocke aribox, that's the only source of air, and the airbox "sucks" air through the snorkle. With the aFe intake, won't the air just get sucked from the drivers side of the car, which would be a less restrictive path?
This is exactly what I've been thinking. I bet the RPI scoops really help here.
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      09-08-2008, 03:49 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Klepper1 View Post
What is going to make the airflow come through the snorkel? With the stocke aribox, that's the only source of air, and the airbox "sucks" air through the snorkle. With the aFe intake, won't the air just get sucked from the drivers side of the car, which would be a less restrictive path?
What? You do drive forward (and not in reverse ), don't you? Seriously, the oem intake "snorkel" is still attached up front (near your bumper) that gets airflow through the kidney grills; the faster you're moving, the more airflow that comes through the kidney grills into the oem snorkel and into the aFe intake.
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      09-08-2008, 04:09 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sflgator View Post
What? You do drive forward (and not in reverse ), don't you? Seriously, the oem intake "snorkel" is still attached up front (near your bumper) that gets airflow through the kidney grills; the faster you're moving, the more airflow that comes through the kidney grills into the oem snorkel and into the aFe intake.
he's got a point, the air going to the filter is going to come from the path of least restriction. The snorkel will have air going towards the filters, but its not the only source. If someone would make a sealed system like the OEM system which uses a dual cone setup then you'll have a winner.

Until then I'll stick w/ my UR intake which has 0 chance of sucking in hot air from the engine bay.




also, I havent been following this thread or the others since I simply dont care what these intakes are doing. But was this test done on a tuned car or a stock car? How tuned? Pushing past 360whp~. Flatter me, i'm too lazy to read the 1st page.
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      09-08-2008, 04:22 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Sniz View Post
he's got a point, the air going to the filter is going to come from the path of least restriction. The snorkel will have air going towards the filters, but its not the only source. If someone would make a sealed system like the OEM system which uses a dual cone setup then you'll have a winner.

Until then I'll stick w/ my UR intake which has 0 chance of sucking in hot air from the engine bay.




also, I havent been following this thread or the others since I simply dont care what these intakes are doing. But was this test done on a tuned car or a stock car? How tuned? Pushing past 360whp~. Flatter me, i'm too lazy to read the 1st page.
I understand what you're saying, but if Shiv is right about the air temp not being the main issue (it's more about air filter surface area and airflow), then the open system is fine. If temp is a major issue (and you want lower temps like a true CAI provides), then yes, a closed, sealed box (like the oem intake) would be best. Here's Shiv's technical explanations of the oem stock intake vs. an open, dual-cone intake (like his own Vishnu dual intake setup)...

http://www.vishnutuningforum.com/for...read.php?t=421

We're discussing all of this b/c the OP saw a power loss from the aFe dual-cone intake (with heat shield) on the dyno (but not sure if the fans were fast enough to mimic real-world driving conditions at 60+mph AND he's completely stock; no tune). Yet, the Vishnu open dual-cone (w/o heat shield) and BMS open dual-cone (w/o heat shield) intakes got HP/TQ increases. Something is not right.

btw -- I just installed the aFe intake a few days ago, and so far, I'm very happy with it...my car has been pulling very hard; as hard or harder than before (with the oem stock intake + drop-in BMC filter). I cannot see how I could possibly have any power loss; my butt dyno tells me more like a probable HP/TQ GAIN of +10-15WHP/TQ (but I have not done a real dyno)...this thing is pulling HARD though.
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Last edited by sflgator; 09-08-2008 at 05:10 PM.
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      09-08-2008, 04:36 PM   #100
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wow..luckily I didn't get this intake..thanks a lot for the review..
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      09-08-2008, 06:15 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sflgator View Post
What? You do drive forward (and not in reverse ), don't you? Seriously, the oem intake "snorkel" is still attached up front (near your bumper) that gets airflow through the kidney grills; the faster you're moving, the more airflow that comes through the kidney grills into the oem snorkel and into the aFe intake.
Haha, yes, I generally drive mostly forward. The stock snorkle intakes are up underneath the front of the kidneys, so the only thing that forces air in there is the pressure build up in front of the rad, which I suspect with all the other outlets for the air (through the rad, etc.) won't be much. The inlets to the snorkle are 90% to the flow, not directly in it (unless you have scoops). The air that goes in the snorkle had to make a right angle turn, and flow through the restrictive snorkle. I would suspect (and this is just my opinion) that that path is much more restrictive than simply the afe dual cones pulling hot air from the drivers side of the engine bay.
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      09-08-2008, 06:22 PM   #102
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Haha, yes, I generally drive mostly forward. The stock snorkle intakes are up underneath the front of the kidneys, so the only thing that forces air in there is the pressure build up in front of the rad, which I suspect with all the other outlets for the air (through the rad, etc.) won't be much. The inlets to the snorkle are 90% to the flow, not directly in it (unless you have scoops). The air that goes in the snorkle had to make a right angle turn, and flow through the restrictive snorkle. I would suspect (and this is just my opinion) that that path is much more restrictive than simply the afe dual cones pulling hot air from the drivers side of the engine bay.
IDK, but FWIW, both the Vishnu and BMS dual intakes have the oem stock snorkel just sitting there in front of their dual cone air filters providing airflow as well I believe.
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      09-08-2008, 06:28 PM   #103
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IDK, but FWIW, both the Vishnu and BMS dual intakes have the oem stock snorkel just sitting there in front of their dual cone air filters providing airflow as well I believe.
Yes, I 100% agree. The only difference is that the others sit off to the side of the engine, not right on top of it. But, I would expect the aFe intake to produce very similar results to the other dual cone setups out there (8 to 10 HP gains, not losses). And it looks way better, so maybe that is worth the $320 price tag vs. $139
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      09-08-2008, 07:11 PM   #104
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Yes, I 100% agree. The only difference is that the others sit off to the side of the engine, not right on top of it. But, I would expect the aFe intake to produce very similar results to the other dual cone setups out there (8 to 10 HP gains, not losses). And it looks way better, so maybe that is worth the $320 price tag vs. $139
Although Shiv's Vishnu dual intake does sit a bit toward the driver's side than the aFe intake, there's no heat shield under the Vishnu dual cone air filters as there is with the aFe intake. I would be willing to bet there's virtually ZERO difference in temp of the airflow coming into to either the Vishnu dual cone and aFe dual cone filters; anywhere in that engine bay is HOT (left, right, or center)!

Although I'm not sure what, if any size difference there is between the Vishnu cone air filters (100sq. in./ea.) and the aFe cone air filters, but I bet they're close in size.

The Vishnu dual cone intake (first pic) and the aFe dual cone intake (second pic); both in a similar spot (Vishnu intake is a bit toward the driver's side and the aFe is more toward the middle), connected to the same two air tube connectors (one in front and one in back) with the oem "snorkel" sitting in front of the dual cone air filters...
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      09-08-2008, 10:52 PM   #105
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This guy's dyno shows HP gain with the aFe vs. stock airbox (from the looks of his pics, he has the dry setup). http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...4&postcount=51
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      09-08-2008, 11:54 PM   #106
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One can't simply come to a conclusion based on only one dyno comparison.

The dyno didn't look it was done with proper airflow to the front of the vehicle. This could easily affect the outcome.

The hood was open instead of closed. Not sure the affect of having a fan blowing into an open hood.

The adaptation time of 30 mintes was way too short. A few hundres miles or few days would be ideal.
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      09-09-2008, 12:36 AM   #107
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One can't simply come to a conclusion based on only one dyno comparison.
Very true.

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The dyno didn't look it was done with proper airflow to the front of the vehicle. This could easily affect the outcome.
I don't know what is defined as proper airflow. There was one of those turbo shaped fans as well as two large fans to either side of it in the front. There was also another large fan in the rear.

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The hood was open instead of closed. Not sure the affect of having a fan blowing into an open hood.
As stated before, both intakes were run hood open and closed. The run with the aFe that yielded the highest numbers (Run 1) was done with the hood closed.

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The adaptation time of 30 mintes was way too short. A few hundres miles or few days would be ideal.
I've never heard of needing this much time to adapt. Regardless, the stock air box, which had the 30 minutes of adaptation, yielded higher results anyway. The aFe had over 200 miles of adaptation before dyno day.
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      09-09-2008, 12:39 AM   #108
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What? You do drive forward (and not in reverse ), don't you? Seriously, the oem intake "snorkel" is still attached up front (near your bumper) that gets airflow through the kidney grills; the faster you're moving, the more airflow that comes through the kidney grills into the oem snorkel and into the aFe intake.
If you look at the way the snorkel is angled behind the kidney grills (perpendicular to direction of airflow) then I think air would be sucked out of the snorkel rather than pushed in - because of Bernoulli's principle. Without some sort of scoop, I think the stock snorkel is not going to provide much airflow at all.
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      09-09-2008, 12:41 AM   #109
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Someone with a G-Timer or some such device should do a comparison. The G-Timer measures HP with the car in motion, so you'll get the accurate airflow that you can't get on a roller dyno.
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      09-09-2008, 12:50 AM   #110
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One can't simply come to a conclusion based on only one dyno comparison.

The dyno didn't look it was done with proper airflow to the front of the vehicle. This could easily affect the outcome.

The hood was open instead of closed. Not sure the affect of having a fan blowing into an open hood.

The adaptation time of 30 mintes was way too short. A few hundres miles or few days would be ideal.
I was at the dyno day... and after the AFE run I kinda guessed the AFE was costing him power... 267whp is low for a 335i... his stock ~275 was right where the car should be power wise.

The fans are sufficient... there is as much airflow as possible without a windtunnel.

fact is the AFE results in a loss of power... everything was done as scientifically as possible imo ... results are results sadly.
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