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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Dyno: aFe Pro-Dry S Intake VS Stock Air Box



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      09-09-2008, 12:59 AM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ericsmc83 View Post



I don't know what is defined as proper airflow. There was one of those turbo shaped fans as well as two large fans to either side of it in the front. There was also another large fan in the rear.



I've never heard of needing this much time to adapt. Regardless, the stock air box, which had the 30 minutes of adaptation, yielded higher results anyway. The aFe had over 200 miles of adaptation before dyno day.

Proper air flow to simulate on-road conditions.


Here is something to try:

Install your oem airbox back on the vehicle, drive for a few hundred miles, dyno the car. Then put the AFE intake on the car, drive for another few hundred miles, dyno it again.

See if you get a similar result.
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      09-09-2008, 04:56 AM   #112
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HP, have you ever looked at the STFT's and how fast they actively adjust on this car. It came up recently, but someone datalogged them and they adjusted almost completely under 3 WOT pulls. This hundreds of miles of adaptation is just a false assumption that many of us made. There is adapting, but it is more like miles rather than 100's of miles.
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      09-09-2008, 06:15 AM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 335i/335d? View Post

I can understand that these filters have a bigger surface, but isnt the flow the problem overhere :
- they are pretty much restricted from the heat shield side
- when you close the trunk they are probably also pretty much restricted from that side
- they are not open on the top side, I have seen cones that are open
- the first cone blocks the way to the second cone, so I dont think this one sees much
fresh air.

But ofcourse I dont have one, so i cant check
Quote:
Originally Posted by rubber_ducky View Post
Somebody should dyno the aFe intake minus the heat shield to see if that makes a difference. I can't imagine it'd behave much differently than the other dual air intakes out there that way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sflgator View Post
I understand what you're saying, but if Shiv is right about the air temp not being the main issue (it's more about air filter surface area and airflow), then the open system is fine.
From the readings and the pictures of the different intakes setups, I really think it is worth trying the AFE setup without the heat shield and trying to place the filters as far apart as possible. From the pictures it seems that the heatshield really constrains the suction area of the filters.
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      09-09-2008, 10:06 AM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Former_Boosted_IS View Post
HP, have you ever looked at the STFT's and how fast they actively adjust on this car. It came up recently, but someone datalogged them and they adjusted almost completely under 3 WOT pulls. This hundreds of miles of adaptation is just a false assumption that many of us made. There is adapting, but it is more like miles rather than 100's of miles.
We saw it first hand with the Borla exhaust system.

Dyno the car first with a baseline number.

After installation of the Borla cat-back system with a few WOT runs and approx 30 minutes of highway and local driving we went to the dyno.

What we saw was 30+ hp and 15+ ft lbs of torque increase. And you probably already know how the community responded to that kind of gain from just a cat-back exhaust.

Guess what, several days and hundreds of miles later we are back on the dyno. hp increase drop about 20 and torque setteled just around 10.
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      09-09-2008, 10:37 AM   #115
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This is quoting one of the AFE engineers...


"The main problem I see is that they may have not let the ecu adapt. When
we test intakes we put 300-500 miles on the test vehicle between dynos.
It allows the computer to adapt to any changes. We did do initial runs
for our own tests and it should have showed a small amount of gain over
stock. Not a loss. Our test was done on a completely stock vehicle. We
publish max gain at a given rpm not peak gains.
If ericsmc83 said there is better throttle response with the afe is he
sure that the dyno graphs are not mixed up? There are several other
independent tests with this same kit on dyno jet dynos and there is a
significant increase in power. Our tests are done on a mustang dyno
which shouldn't make a big difference as long as its an apples to apples
comparison."

The longer adapation is necessary.

Harold
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      09-09-2008, 10:52 AM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HP Autowerks View Post
We saw it first hand with the Borla exhaust system.

Dyno the car first with a baseline number.

After installation of the Borla cat-back system with a few WOT runs and approx 30 minutes of highway and local driving we went to the dyno.

What we saw was 30+ hp and 15+ ft lbs of torque increase. And you probably already know how the community responded to that kind of gain from just a cat-back exhaust.

Guess what, several days and hundreds of miles later we are back on the dyno. hp increase drop about 20 and torque setteled just around 10.
HP, you can datalog the STFT's and LTFT's quite easily. I would encourage you to look at the numbers and I think you would be quite surprised.
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      09-09-2008, 01:54 PM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Strax View Post
From the readings and the pictures of the different intakes setups, I really think it is worth trying the AFE setup without the heat shield and trying to place the filters as far apart as possible. From the pictures it seems that the heatshield really constrains the suction area of the filters.
No; not at all. From the pictures, you can't tell that there's plenty of space underneath the aFe air filters. I can run my fingers under them, so air definitely gets under there.

btw -- anyone who thinks that the Vishnu and BMS air filters somehow get more "colder" air from being placed a bit toward the driver's side ((instead of where the aFe air filters are in the middle, where the oem stock intake box used to be), think again ; it's just as hot anywhere in the engine bay...left, middle, right...it doesn't matter!
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      09-09-2008, 07:22 PM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HP Autowerks View Post
Here is something to try:

Install your oem airbox back on the vehicle, drive for a few hundred miles, dyno the car. Then put the AFE intake on the car, drive for another few hundred miles, dyno it again.

See if you get a similar result.
Unfortunately, this is beyond reasonable with my personal circumstances. 600+ miles of driving with my driving habits of this vehicle would take 2-3 months, not to mention an extra $300 for two more dyno sessions.

Regardless, corroboration of the information from others on this forum shows that this dyno and testing is as accurate as possible. I don't see the need, therefore, to continue testing on my vehicle.

Hopefully dynos and testing performed by others will follow shortly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HP Autowerks View Post
This is quoting one of the AFE engineers...


"The main problem I see is that they may have not let the ecu adapt. When
we test intakes we put 300-500 miles on the test vehicle between dynos.
It allows the computer to adapt to any changes. We did do initial runs
for our own tests and it should have showed a small amount of gain over
stock. Not a loss. Our test was done on a completely stock vehicle. We
publish max gain at a given rpm not peak gains.
If ericsmc83 said there is better throttle response with the afe is he
sure that the dyno graphs are not mixed up? There are several other
independent tests with this same kit on dyno jet dynos and there is a
significant increase in power.
Our tests are done on a mustang dyno
which shouldn't make a big difference as long as its an apples to apples
comparison."

The longer adapation is necessary.

Harold
Yes, I am absolutely positive that the dynos are not mixed up. I was in the car for each run and saw the results after each run.

Please ask for and post the results of the several other independent tests that show a significant increase in power. I think we would all love to see them!

Thanks, Harold.
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      09-09-2008, 07:41 PM   #119
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I think the heat shield that is used is actually making the air temps even hotter than it really is....Its kind of like frying something in a fan....WHat kind of material is used for their heatshield anyways??
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      09-09-2008, 08:38 PM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cn555ic View Post
I think the heat shield that is used is actually making the air temps even hotter than it really is....Its kind of like frying something in a fan....WHat kind of material is used for their heatshield anyways??
Teflon non-stick of course. Seriously, the heat shield isn't keeping heat in or making the air flow any hotter; there's space below the dual cone air filters that allows for airflow as the filters are not touching the heat shield. If anything, the heat shield is actually doing it's job by creating a physical barrier between the engine block and the dual cone air filters.
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      09-09-2008, 08:59 PM   #121
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you guys should dyno with heat shield on and off to compare, i think with the heat shield on less air is suck into the filter as the air does not come from all directions around the filters
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      09-09-2008, 09:02 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by e90AW335i View Post
You spent 300 dollars for nothing.
You spent 300 dollar for nothing...

I truely believe their "company" is a scam. Look at their gmail email..LOL
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      09-09-2008, 09:04 PM   #123
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damn, looks like the stock airbox is going to go back on. I blew all that money down the drain
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      09-09-2008, 09:08 PM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YellowFinger View Post
You spent 300 dollar for nothing...

I truely believe their "company" is a scam. Look at their gmail email..LOL
"Scam" companies wouldn't be in business as long as they have (since 1999); they've made products for quite some time. "Scam" companies also wouldn't have such a large distribution network either. Not sure where you got their "gmail" e-mail address, but they list their aFe e-mail addresses on their Web site (e.g. -- orders@afefilters.com)...

http://www.afefilters.com/aboutus.htm

http://www.afefilters.com/contactus.htm

Maybe you shouldn't post such crap unless you know what your saying is accurate. God knows we have enough rumors and b.s. info on the Forum.
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      09-09-2008, 09:33 PM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by i2iSTUDIOS View Post
damn, looks like the stock airbox is going to go back on. I blew all that money down the drain
Hey, don't feel bad, the alternatives are no better considering the $/hp. For example, you could buy the BMW performance intake for around $1K and gain 3 hp, or $333/hp. OTOH, you could lighten the car by 35 lbs and gain the same thing.

After the obvious tuning steps, trying to eek out those last few hp's are gonna cost you big time. No different for the racing folks.

I spent a couple hundred of $ for a nice looking rear spoiler that will never work below +100 mph, but it does look good! You dual cone intake is along the same lines.
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      09-09-2008, 09:39 PM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sflgator View Post
"Scam" companies wouldn't be in business as long as they have (since 1999); they've made products for quite some time. "Scam" companies also wouldn't have such a large distribution network either. Not sure where you got their "gmail" e-mail address, but they list their aFe e-mail addresses on their Web site (e.g. -- orders@afefilters.com)...

http://www.afefilters.com/aboutus.htm

http://www.afefilters.com/contactus.htm

Maybe you shouldn't post such crap unless you know what your saying is accurate. God knows we have enough rumors and b.s. info on the Forum.
Agree.

It's so sad we see posters posting on a topic without any real knowledge and posting comments on a product without any personal experience of it.

Because of these ineffectual posts, most manufactures/vendors avoid posting, answering questions or just avoid the similar forums completely.

Wouldn't be nice to manufacture support here?
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      09-09-2008, 09:47 PM   #127
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There is no mystery here...

The heat shield does nothing without cold air coming through the snorkel. There is just a lot of hot ambient air in the engine bay. The heat shield is ineffective as the engine just sucks in that hot ambient air.

But, if you can force cold air into the snorkel by way of say those RPI-style scoops... then the heat shield aids in keeping the cooler air coming through the snorkel from mixing with the hot air from the rest of the engine area. And cooler air from the heat shield area is sucked in by the engine.

With the stock airbox, there is suction to suck the cold air in. Take away the airbox and the engine just sucks in hot air. So... having the intake but without the scoops, there is simply no way of bringing cooler air into the engine bay. And as a result, the heat shield may as well not even be there.

This is likely why aFe are making their own ram-air scoops.

Last edited by rubber_ducky; 09-09-2008 at 09:50 PM. Reason: grammar
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      09-09-2008, 09:54 PM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rubber_ducky View Post
...
But, if you can force cold air into the snorkel by way of say those RPI-style scoops... then the heat shield aids in keeping the cooler air coming through the snorkel from mixing with the hot air from the rest of the engine area. And cooler air from the heat shield area is sucked in by the engine...
To expand on this... if the scoops can't feed enough air into the heat shield area then the engine will just suck in the ambient air through the heat shield openings on the drivers side. Thereby making the heat shield less effective.

But for the people saying that the rear filter will be 'starved for air', that's just plain silly. It'll get all of the air it needs given that the box isn't sealed.
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      09-09-2008, 10:00 PM   #129
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I don't understand why people are bashing the afe product like look at me i have a dual cone that is better, I made the best decsion by not buying it making me the smartest person.look it is unfortunate what is being seen with some of the dyno's. No one believed the 27 whp power advertisement, hell every intake company talks about large gains, hell look at some of KN's and AEM's advertised claims, and they are very respected intake companies. People have chimed in, In particular hp in which suttle changes on a car ie. exhaust caused huge dyno differences immediately and then after the car adapted the levels dropped off, there may be problems with this intake but to go around acting like it is a complete failure is a bit pre-mature. lets get some more dyno's then if it is consistant then we can call a dud a dud, but 2 dynos that show a deacrease is not the end all concrete evidence that everyone seems to be acting like it is. So lets get some more cars in the dyno and find out.
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      09-10-2008, 05:37 AM   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ontopofm View Post
you guys should dyno with heat shield on and off to compare, i think with the heat shield on less air is suck into the filter as the air does not come from all directions around the filters
I agree. I think it's worth a shot!
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      09-10-2008, 12:22 PM   #131
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please do this
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      09-10-2008, 12:24 PM   #132
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True.. this won't affect adaptivity of the intake and ECU so it's definitely do-able.
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