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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Technical Forums > Suspension | Brakes | Chassis > What in the rear suspension would cause neg camber?



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      03-12-2017, 11:26 PM   #1
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What in the rear suspension would cause neg camber?

Got an alignment and they couldn't align it past -2 degrees in the rear. Thinking something is worn out or bent that's causing this bc spec is -1.8
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      03-13-2017, 10:04 AM   #2
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...and your mods (if any) are?
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      03-13-2017, 12:52 PM   #3
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What is the current camber value and what do you want it to be?
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      03-13-2017, 09:57 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FCobra94 View Post
...and your mods (if any) are?
Lol sorry. Stock sport suspension on a LCI. My camber is -2.2 on one side and -2.0 on the other. Shop said it won't go any higher.
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      03-13-2017, 09:58 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by feuer View Post
What is the current camber value and what do you want it to be?
I want both sides to be at -1.8 which is spec but they're at 2.2 and 2.0
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      03-14-2017, 06:41 AM   #6
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Sagging springs or worn bushes, even worn wheel bearings. Springs could be sitting lower than they should and every single bushing will affect the geometry as they're under load.
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      03-14-2017, 10:19 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Black_e90 View Post
Lol sorry. Stock sport suspension on a LCI. My camber is -2.2 on one side and -2.0 on the other. Shop said it won't go any higher.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Black_e90 View Post
I want both sides to be at -1.8 which is spec but they're at 2.2 and 2.0
Lower you mean, -1.8 is lower/less camber than -2.0 or -2.2.
Anyhow, the difference from -1.8 to -2.0 is negligible.
Car is 8y old on probably original and worn out suspension parts.
If toe in/out OK don't worry about the camber as much, especially if you are not experiencing excessive tire wear.
Reasons are plenty full, from worn out part, to damaged parts, to inaccurate alignment rack and incompetent technician.
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      03-15-2017, 09:20 AM   #8
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anyway, -2.2 in the back is not bad. I run -2.5 in the back and my rear street tires wear extremely evenly.
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      03-15-2017, 12:33 PM   #9
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As long as the toe is 0 it won't wear unevenly, however, the car would handle better in the -1.5 range or even less.
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      03-15-2017, 02:16 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff@TopGearSolutions View Post
As long as the toe is 0 it won't wear unevenly, however, the car would handle better in the -1.5 range or even less.
Even less camber from -1.5 is -1.2 or -0.8 and will not handle better, more negative camber equals better handling.
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      03-15-2017, 04:28 PM   #11
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Tire wear is relative to driving habits... so not sure why people are speaking in absolutes.

Anything other than 0 toe is going to increase the RATE of tire wear since the tire will be dragged down the road (pigeon toed). Camber dictates WHICH part of the tire gets worn when being dragged. Negative camber accelerates wear on the inside of the tire. If all you do is straight line driving, or you do a lot of burnouts, the insides of your tires are going to wear quicker than the outside. Therefore, decreasing the life of your tires (uneven tire wear).

Negative camber is good for cornering handling for many reasons, but negative camber also decreases straight line traction. I asked for rear camber to be reduced to -1.5* last time I was in the shop. -2.0 is a bit high for street tires/commuting habits.

The only way to get even tire wear with negative camber is to offset the inside shoulder wear with frequent canyon driving (cornering forces) to wear out the outside shoulder as well.

-2.2/-2.0 is close enough. I'd ask for it to be brought down to -1.5* though. If that isn't possible, something is wrong. Factory adjustment should allow you to get closer to spec... maybe your TOE is way out? Toe and Camber will effect one another during alignment, but a competent alignment person should know this...
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Last edited by bbnks2; 03-16-2017 at 08:26 PM.
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      03-15-2017, 06:51 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff@TopGearSolutions
As long as the toe is 0 it won't wear unevenly, however, the car would handle better in the -1.5 range or even less.
+1

-1.5 works well on the street.

Check all your suspension links. Recently found out the Muppets that installed my m3 guide rods put them in backwards.
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      03-16-2017, 12:42 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by feuer View Post
Even less camber from -1.5 is -1.2 or -0.8 and will not handle better, more negative camber equals better handling.
I'd agree for the front, but excess camber in the rear does not make a car handle better necessarily. There is a point of diminishing returns.

There is too much detail to get into without getting into specifics of the exact specs of the vehicle and the goals of the "handling".

For a street vehicle, average joe who does minimal enthusiastic driving, it won't matter.

Manufactures typically spec the vehicle to have less camber front and more in the rear for a conservative driving feel. Switching that around will have positive effects on the handling, which in fact is reducing some negative camber out of the rear and increasing negative camber up front.

The whole idea for increasing negative camber is to counteract the tendency of camber to go positive during hard cornering. There is a point of going too far. Spring rates, suspension geometry, sway bars all play a role in determining how far to really go.

I'm currently running -1.5 front and rear. I'd like to dial the rear to about -1.25 and the front a little closer to -2 but I'll need to change to camber plates in the front to achieve that and I'm not sure if there is enough room in the rear to squeeze out less camber.
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Last edited by Jeff@TopGearSolutions; 03-16-2017 at 12:49 PM.
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      03-16-2017, 04:43 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff@TopGearSolutions View Post

Manufactures typically spec the vehicle to have less camber front and more in the rear for a conservative driving feel.
Would you mind elaborating on this a bit? How would a car with more rear camber than front differ from the one with more front than rear? Both cars with same suspension setup and average Joe driving style.

Last edited by tadaska; 03-16-2017 at 04:52 PM.
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      03-16-2017, 05:32 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tadaska View Post
Would you mind elaborating on this a bit? How would a car with more rear camber than front differ from the one with more front than rear? Both cars with same suspension setup and average Joe driving style.
Negative Camber improves grip during cornering, so having more rear than front will make it more prone to understeer, along with staggered tyres that are wider at the back and a few other things.
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      03-16-2017, 08:45 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tadaska View Post
Would you mind elaborating on this a bit? How would a car with more rear camber than front differ from the one with more front than rear? Both cars with same suspension setup and average Joe driving style.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digitalize View Post
Negative Camber improves grip during cornering, so having more rear than front will make it more prone to understeer, along with staggered tyres that are wider at the back and a few other things.
Exactly and the manufacturers spec that so that car will typically understeer as that is "preferred" compared to oversteer.
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      04-10-2017, 02:02 PM   #17
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Hey Jeff,

Not sure what size wheels you have on your car, but I am running 19x10.5 et 22 and 19x9.5 et 20 on my e92 and lowered it pretty low. The alignment shop said the closest they could get my rear camber to 0 was -2.8. Only took about 8000 miles to completely shred the inner camber with almost no wear at all on the outter 3 quarters of the tire.

A friend of mine suggested aftermarket camber arms to get it to -2.0 all around and 1/16th toe in. Do you think this would help?

Also is Megan Racing the only reputable brand selling aftermarket camber arms for the rear??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff@TopGearSolutions View Post
I'd agree for the front, but excess camber in the rear does not make a car handle better necessarily. There is a point of diminishing returns.

There is too much detail to get into without getting into specifics of the exact specs of the vehicle and the goals of the "handling".

For a street vehicle, average joe who does minimal enthusiastic driving, it won't matter.

Manufactures typically spec the vehicle to have less camber front and more in the rear for a conservative driving feel. Switching that around will have positive effects on the handling, which in fact is reducing some negative camber out of the rear and increasing negative camber up front.

The whole idea for increasing negative camber is to counteract the tendency of camber to go positive during hard cornering. There is a point of going too far. Spring rates, suspension geometry, sway bars all play a role in determining how far to really go.

I'm currently running -1.5 front and rear. I'd like to dial the rear to about -1.25 and the front a little closer to -2 but I'll need to change to camber plates in the front to achieve that and I'm not sure if there is enough room in the rear to squeeze out less camber.
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      04-10-2017, 03:06 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JChiang29 View Post
Only took about 8000 miles to completely shred the inner camber with almost no wear at all on the outter 3 quarters of the tire.
Is toe out that destroyed your tires. Not camber.
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      04-10-2017, 04:56 PM   #19
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Camber killing tyres is a myth. Of course it increases the wear rate on the inside edge but unless running extreme camber it's toe that significantly increases wear on one side. I've had -2.5 degrees on the rear and tyres have still worn within 1mm across.
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      04-10-2017, 05:24 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Digitalize View Post
Camber killing tyres is a myth. Of course it increases the wear rate on the inside edge but unless running extreme camber it's toe that significantly increases wear on one side. I've had -2.5 degrees on the rear and tyres have still worn within 1mm across.
It's not a myth. It just depends on your driving habits. If all you do is drive in straight lines, or do a lot of burnouts, then you don't want negative camber. All that will do is cause you to drive around on the inside edge of the tire all day. That's not a myth...
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