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      12-08-2012, 05:17 AM   #353
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Whoever is giving your information is dead wrong. Of course, E9X suspension's need to be preload.
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      02-07-2013, 12:03 AM   #354
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So I've read through this thread multiple times (awesome info), and I think I have the concept correct but want to confirm I'm looking at this the right way.

The front end is pretty cut and dry to me. Replace all four links and align, done. (well, other than whether I need to also buy the new hardware too or if existing can be reused).

The rear subframe bushings are the same- I know what I need.

But where I'm unsure if with the multilink setup in the rear, partly because some of the terminology seems inconsistent across vendors. This is what I *think* I need to get 90% of the slop out, while not replacing arms that already have decent bushings, or just don't make that much of a difference as the others:
-rear guide rod 3322283547
-rear upper link 33322283545

But, do I also need:
-rear upper control arm link? 33322283549
-rear camber arm link 33322283885 (I think no to this one unless I'm significantly lowered on coils, right?)

Thanks for the informed insight.
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      09-10-2013, 03:40 AM   #355
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Hi,

I have a 335i E92 from 2010 with the BMW Performance kit. Couple months ago, I have changed the BMW performance suspension with Bilstein B16 RC kit.
Now I intend to change the Front Wishbones and tension struts, the Rear Sub-frame bushes and Rear Wishbones and guide arms with the ones from M3.
Before doing this, I need a second opinion, if this setup is ok considering I have the after market coilovers. I am thinking the Bilstein suspension was designed to work with 335i links and not with the M3 links.
Any feedback would be much appreciated.
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      09-10-2013, 06:13 AM   #356
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The coilovers will only do their job better with the stiffer suspension bushings. Go ahead and do it.
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      09-10-2013, 06:55 AM   #357
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovidiuv View Post
Hi,

I have a 335i E92 from 2010 with the BMW Performance kit. Couple months ago, I have changed the BMW performance suspension with Bilstein B16 RC kit.
Now I intend to change the Front Wishbones and tension struts, the Rear Sub-frame bushes and Rear Wishbones and guide arms with the ones from M3.
Before doing this, I need a second opinion, if this setup is ok considering I have the after market coilovers. I am thinking the Bilstein suspension was designed to work with 335i links and not with the M3 links.
Any feedback would be much appreciated.
You have to do it, the stock bushings flex too much for the added stiffness of the coilovers. The flex changes your geometry on hard cornering and you will lose traction and understeer more. Go with all that you said, you will really enjoy the car more.
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      12-26-2013, 02:26 PM   #358
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last links needed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orb View Post
Harold, for the rear links, this one for sure- 33322283549 - it is good idea if you have Quaife and will reduce toe out under acceleration. That is were you should stop unless you load test the other two forward links for stiffness.

Spill the beens on what you checked out on the rear.

Orb
Hi. Looking into this and all parts on order or delivered except 2* these rear toe links. There is conflicting information as to whether this is required or avoided.

I think I read somewhere that someone installed these but removed because of NVH and not because of incompatibilities...


Also will I be letting my car down by not getting rear camber arms.
33322283885 and 6?

Thanks in advance.

Chris

P.s. I have birds b3 suspension setup currently.

P.p.s. basically same question as Ashmostro above (though i believe he had the lowering dependency cross wired between three two past numbers)....and this post from the 1 series forum.
Quote:
Originally Posted by exPat View Post
Thoughts on how necessary the Toe Arms are? According to HP Autowerks, "For E82/E9X owners with just lowering springs, these are not a necessary requirement. For standard spring-only suspension installs, there is enough adjustment in the factory toe arms to bring them back into spec."

Related links
http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showt...=794799&page=3

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showt...php?p=14343397

Last edited by crypticc; 12-26-2013 at 03:08 PM. Reason: related links
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      12-27-2013, 10:19 AM   #359
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crypticc View Post
Hi. Looking into this and all parts on order or delivered except 2* these rear toe links. There is conflicting information as to whether this is required or avoided.

I think I read somewhere that someone installed these but removed because of NVH and not because of incompatibilities...


Also will I be letting my car down by not getting rear camber arms.
33322283885 and 6?

Thanks in advance.

Chris

P.s. I have birds b3 suspension setup currently.
It depends on how much power you are putting out if you need to get the rear toe links. I had to get them due to torque steer on the rear when the meth kicks in. I found the car didn't track a straight line and required constant wheel adjustments to keep the car straight. Make sure you get a good 4 wheel alignment too that made a huge difference for me.
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      12-27-2013, 10:29 AM   #360
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crypticc View Post

Also will I be letting my car down by not getting rear camber arms.
33322283885 and 6?
I didn't get the rear camber links. I have enough rear tire wear on the inside rears now. I really don't want to increase the tire wear more by getting the rear camber links and increasing the rear camber. I believe that is what they do, as well as stiffer bushings too. Maybe others can chime in here.

I just checked on Harold's site. They don't mention any additional camber, so they probably don't change it - which is good.

http://hpautowerks.com/
BMW OEM M3 Rear Lower Camber Link Conversion Kit

I bet these would stiffen things up for better rear directional stability. My car weaves still under hard accel, drives me nuts... but I don't want to spend another grand to fix it.
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      12-27-2013, 12:09 PM   #361
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Camber links can be used to dial in whatever camber you want - you shouldn't really make that mental connection you just did.

And generally, improper toe settings are what contribute to inner tire wear the most rather than a lot of negative camber. Case in point, I run -2.5 up front and my outer edges still wear more than my inner, due to my driving style.
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      01-04-2014, 07:52 PM   #362
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaFish View Post
It depends on how much power you are putting out if you need to get the rear toe links. I had to get them due to torque steer on the rear when the meth kicks in. I found the car didn't track a straight line and required constant wheel adjustments to keep the car straight. Make sure you get a good 4 wheel alignment too that made a huge difference for me.
Thanks. Asking because e.g, ECS site says not applicable expect for m3 but the others are mentioned as upgrade items.
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      01-11-2014, 05:38 AM   #363
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crypticc View Post
Thanks. Asking because e.g, ECS site says not applicable expect for m3 but the others are mentioned as upgrade items.
P.s. will changing the rear links that are a direct swap without changing the rear tow arms change the passive rear steering effect? Maybe Orb can chime in here.
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      01-11-2014, 07:10 AM   #364
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If it's the camber links you are taking about, no just changing those will not address the toe drift under power effect. Only the toe arms will help with that.
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      01-11-2014, 06:04 PM   #365
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Hi. I mean if changing the regular rear guide rods and stuff... Basically same part numbers as ashmoto. Does those arms being replaced and now more firmly attached affect the relative play in the the geometry under load negatively? Because the camber arms and toe arm still being OE still have play expecting the other components to also have similar play.
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      01-11-2014, 06:07 PM   #366
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They will help, for sure. But without doing the toe arm, it won't be as stiff as possible.

Note that the lower camber link does not replace the bushings for that link, unlike the other arms. So replacing that link doesn't inherently make the suspension tighter - it is just lighter and therefore more reactive... plus it allows you to use M3 style shocks, which eliminates the rubber lower shock mount. That helps with vertical control, but not for deflection under acceleration and braking.

EDIT - just re-read your post and realized I missed your nuance, sorry. Will changing the front portion of the 5-link setup without changing the toe arm exacerbate the toe arm deflection? I don't know... maybe? Personally I think it will help more than it will hurt but yeah you are definitely putting more of the lion's share of stress on that link's bushing, all else being equal.
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      01-12-2014, 06:21 AM   #367
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Exactly on the last point. thinking about the passive rear wheel steering engineered intentionally into most suspension designs, we must be upsetting the relative distortions actually increasing toe under load situations like acceleration and more significantly cornering under power.

Where the stock oe suspension might be less direct, half an m3 might actually be worse than no enhancement at all. I have most of the bits except the toe link and camber wishbone standing by to fit
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      01-12-2014, 08:39 PM   #368
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Did anyone have an issue with the front lower control arms not fitting into the subframe crossmember? Mine were just a hair wider than the stock ones, and wouldn't slide into the subframe position, and I had to grind off a couple mm of metal from the bushing end.
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      01-12-2014, 08:56 PM   #369
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I think they are an interference fit on a lot of cars from what I've heard from other owners.
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      01-13-2014, 06:18 PM   #370
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashmostro View Post
I think they are an interference fit on a lot of cars from what I've heard from other owners.
There was zero possibility of getting them installed in that spot without grinding off the metal. I shaved just enough to get them to tight fit, and figure the 50ft-# + 90deg torque on the bolt will pull it back fully tight again. Thet don't have the teeth on the M3 bushing like the stock one does either.

EDIT: Just an FYI, after about 12 track days, and 50k miles on the car in 7 years, my OEM lower control arms were showing wear at the bushing (some slight cracking) so likely were in need of a replacement anyway. Glad I made the upgrade.

Last edited by raceyBMW; 01-16-2014 at 12:59 PM.
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      01-29-2014, 03:49 PM   #371
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I'm trying to fix the rear instability problem on my e92 335i (rear torque steer/instability under WOT) and get some updated feedback on rear toe arm options.

Everything in the rear suspension and subframe has been updated except rear toe arms and diff bushings.

From what I've read, the combo of increased torque, wide wheels-tires, and LSD is causing the rear toe bushings to deflect and cause the instability, effectively changing the rear toe angle of the wheels under hard acceleration. They rear toe links may even be deflecting to the point of causing momentary positive toe, which is an extremely unstable condition. If i'm not mistaken, the toe arms have a greater effect on the "torque vectoring", while the diff bushings have a greater effect on wheel hop.

Based on Orb's extensive write up (see bottom of page) I was going to use the Megan toe arms.
Megan has changed their toe arms since then however (they are now pink) http://www.meganracing.com/product.a...d=891&catid=93
and when I wrote to Megan about the joint construction, I received this reply:

Hello,

The type of joint is Teflon liner and it is only available in pink.

Thank you and have a great day!

MEGAN RACING INC.
489 YORBITA ROAD STE B
LA PUENTE, CA 91744


If Megan's reply is correct, the joints are no longer the "steel ball with a plastic race" described by Orb, but the standard spherical bearing with teflon liner used by Rogue, Ground Control etc....that while stiff, may all may have a relatively short life on street cars (before starting to rattle).

* Has anyone purchased the Megan Toe arms recently? Can you tell me what joint style the "pink" version are shipping with?

* Has anyone used the stock toe arms and pressed in the Powerflex bushings? race or street version? http://www.harrisonmotorsports.com/p...2006-2011.html

* Has anyone used the stock toe arms and pressed in the BMW N Performance bushings? http://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-12...r-e82-e9x.aspx

Any updated feedback on toe arm options and experience would be appreciated !!!





original toe link commentary from Orb

Those looking at toe links or any other suspension linkage should consider any product offered suspect regardless of the vendor. Only a small number of vendors offer well engineered products but most are just horrific in their execution (or lack of). If one looks beyond in the hype and looks closely at the mechanic aspect you will select a better product.

Toe Link:

The toe link structure is limited to maximum diameter (thickness) of about 21 mm since it will hit the spring if it larger than this. Given the design approach this leaves you with no geometry options so we can just look at the materials. Steel Alloy is 3 times strong and stiffer than aluminum. The only stiffer material is carbon fiber. The OEM link is magnitudes stiffer and stronger than the steel round bar adjustable link due to its geometry. I have run several FEA simulation of toe link designs and can without a doubt say that aluminum round bar at 21 mm is not safe in a crash or in a high load situation. The design goal of BMW was to have the lower front link buckle from a crash so your suspension doesn’t puncture the fuel tank. If you think that you aluminum link was engineered then I would ask the vendor for proof they did some due diligence… I expect none.

Spherical Bearing:

The majority of spherical bearing on the market are lined with Teflon based materials and the ball and race are made from steel. The bearing vendors provide data sheets for load and surface speed capacity of each bearing size and the respective materials. A vast majority of these bearing would not be suitable for automotive application due to the bearing high surface speed requirement. If you have a suspension link with low end bearing it would be likely that it is not suitable for this application. Unsealed bearing of this type wear exponentially with small amounts of contamination (life measured in hours or even minutes). A bearing is considered to be worn out at when the friction level hits 0.25 and not when it starts making noise. Generally, Teflon lined bearing are a poor choice for an automotive application since even the best quality bearing have a reality short life when compared to alternative designs and materials. If the bearing life doesn’t matter and ultimate stiffness / feel is desired then this would be and good choice.

The best possible spherical bearing design for automotive application is a steel ball with a plastic race that is lubed and sealed. This type of design works well with high bearing surface speeds and can be preloaded as desired. You will find this type of design in high end OEM cars like the M3. The life of this bearing is going to about 20 times longer than the best Teflon lined bearing. The bearing also reduces NVH a great deal. There is little or no difference in joint stiffness when compared to Teflon lined bearing. Hardrace (aka Megan) links are designed with this methodology. You can also get roll bar end links for Turner Motorsports that use this design as well.

Last edited by motuman; 01-29-2014 at 06:13 PM.
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      01-29-2014, 04:37 PM   #372
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I have both the pink (newer) and blue (older) versions of the arms in my car, since I bought all three - trailing, camber, and toe. The joints appear exactly the same - only the color is different.
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      01-29-2014, 06:21 PM   #373
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashmostro View Post
I have both the pink (newer) and blue (older) versions of the arms in my car, since I bought all three - trailing, camber, and toe. The joints appear exactly the same - only the color is different.
Hey, thanks for the reply. I noticed 2 kinds of joint listed on the Hardrace site too:

http://www.hardrace.com/products.asp?strClass1=4

I contacted Megan by phone and e-mail, but they don't seem to know what they are selling (the guy on the phone didn't know what a heim joint was)....so:

The e-mail from Megan makes it sound like a spherical joint, with teflon liner. (i.e. just like everyone else's version)

but.......

The fact that so few people have trouble with the Megan's clicking, makes it sound more like the "rubber" version. (unless their seal is just better?)

and.....

Orb described the Meagan as a a steel ball with a plastic race that is lubed and sealed. (not teflon, per Megan e-mail)


So not sure what Megan is actually selling????

.
.
.
.
.
.
Mr Orb, please pick-up the white courtesy phone!

Last edited by motuman; 01-29-2014 at 06:26 PM.
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      01-29-2014, 07:14 PM   #374
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I just got MR toe arms @ 2 weeks ago. You can still get them in blue.

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