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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Lack of limited slip differential (LSD) in the 335i



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      07-14-2006, 06:44 PM   #45
DLJJ3399
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Quote:
Originally Posted by visor
Instead of being slowed down by the computer/DSC shutting down the power by applying individual braking and/or cutting the throttle back, the LSD (due purely to its mechanical design) allows the power to be laid down to the ground evenly with little slip and little lost energy.

Here, maybe this link will help to explain it better than I can:
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/differential.htm

By the time the DSC goes into full action, aren't you out of control of the vehicle?

How would LSD be of greater value when you're dealing with the laws of physics?

Wouldn't your back end slide out and then you would lose speed with your correction?

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      07-14-2006, 08:02 PM   #46
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Wouldn't worry about it...check out video

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24172
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      07-14-2006, 08:15 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobnaz
I'd seen that.
During the part where it launches from a standing start, I only saw one tire-burnout mark on the road, specifically the left side. Was there another tire mark on the right side? I wasn't sure, because there was too much smoke in the way...

Anyway, if there was only one tire-burnout mark on the road, then it provides additional evidence for the need for an LSD with so much torque on board available at such a low rpm.
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      07-14-2006, 08:25 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by visor
I'd seen that.
During the part where it launches from a standing start, I only saw one tire-burnout mark on the road, specifically the left side. Was there another tire mark on the right side? I wasn't sure, because there was too much smoke in the way...

Anyway, if there was only one tire-burnout mark on the road, then it provides additional evidence for the need for an LSD with so much torque on board available at such a low rpm.
^^ exactly......
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      07-14-2006, 09:51 PM   #49
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Max torque is at 1300RPM=
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      07-14-2006, 11:46 PM   #50
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1wd is better than 0wd i guess

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      07-15-2006, 02:48 AM   #51
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A Quaife will be my first Mod on my E90 335. Really wish I could order one OEM, along with the M-pack interior. Helps with winter driving too.
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      07-15-2006, 02:53 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by visor
Yep, they sure do.
In their Sport Package option.
Check out http://www.lexus.ca/lexus/experience...r=2006#options
Lexus only offers an LSD on their canadian cars. In their infinite wisdom, they did not make it available for the US.
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      07-15-2006, 03:52 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JO3
Lexus only offers an LSD on their canadian cars. In their infinite wisdom, they did not make it available for the US.
Wow, I didn't know that... you wonder how some marketing decisions are made.

Most likely next year they'll have it for the US, along with the manual tranny.
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      07-15-2006, 03:54 AM   #54
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It's for all those wild-haired ice racers up there in the great white north.
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      07-15-2006, 06:23 AM   #55
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$1500 for a limited slip? I had no idea they were that affordable - never priced one. Why are people always saying that it cost so much to upgrade to M specs then?

335i + suspension + diff + $5k in engine mods = E90 M killer?
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      07-15-2006, 11:00 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by visor
I'd seen that.
During the part where it launches from a standing start, I only saw one tire-burnout mark on the road, specifically the left side. Was there another tire mark on the right side? I wasn't sure, because there was too much smoke in the way...

Anyway, if there was only one tire-burnout mark on the road, then it provides additional evidence for the need for an LSD with so much torque on board available at such a low rpm.
It's all wheel drive...don't you think LSD is over kill??
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      07-15-2006, 07:35 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobnaz
It's all wheel drive...don't you think LSD is over kill??
Go to marker 1 min 15 sec in that video and tell me if you see a 335xi designation on that car.

If so, then I should get my eyes checked...
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Last edited by visor; 07-15-2006 at 08:03 PM.
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      07-15-2006, 07:48 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel
$1500 for a limited slip? I had no idea they were that affordable - never priced one. Why are people always saying that it cost so much to upgrade to M specs then?

335i + suspension + diff + $5k in engine mods = E90 M killer?
Not that easy, all ///Ms are equipped with better components in almost every aspect. In straightline performance, with it being FI, I'm sure with a couple thousand in engine mods, you could easily make it outperform the new M3. But then you'd need a stronger tranny, along with some other strengthened parts to handle the torque. With that and the other stuff you mentioned, you'd easily reach the M3 price range. So, why not just get a M3 in the first place with a warranty, better styling, and just a overall better platform to begin with?

Let's say you do all of that stuff anyway, then some guy gets a blower on his V8. Game over
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      07-15-2006, 08:59 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shimshimhada
Let's say you do all of that stuff anyway, then some guy gets a blower on his V8. Game over
Good luck getting a blower installed for under 10k.
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      07-15-2006, 09:06 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akhbhaat
Good luck getting a blower installed for under 10k.
I was hoping you could bolt on a Vortech to the new V8?

You're right though, the ESS or AA ones are going to be pricey.
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      07-15-2006, 10:37 PM   #61
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from this thread: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24617

Notice where all the smoke and the skid mark is coming from... yup, the inside tire. What a waste of torque!
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      07-15-2006, 10:53 PM   #62
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I'd rather just get a G35
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      07-16-2006, 01:30 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JO3
from this thread: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24617

Notice where all the smoke and the skid mark is coming from... yup, the inside tire. What a waste of torque!
Wow, what a waste, you're right!

All that power with no control.

I believe the cars in these 2 video reviews posted so far have DSC partially or totally disabled, because if the DSC were on, it will not allow such tail-out tire-burning antics to occur.
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      07-16-2006, 01:52 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DLJJ3399
By the time the DSC goes into full action, aren't you out of control of the vehicle?

How would LSD be of greater value when you're dealing with the laws of physics?

Wouldn't your back end slide out and then you would lose speed with your correction?

Help!!!
Did you go through that link I provided at howstuffworks.com?

Trust us, when you have 300 lb-ft going thru only one axle, an open differential with electronic slip control is a poor substitute for an LSD that is the only way to put all that power down to the ground effectively.

Drive your car hard (safely of course, with no traffic around you please) thru some turns with DSC on and then with DSC partially off, then you'll appreciate that even our measly 255hp/220lbft 330i's can do with an LSD. If you don't appreciate it, that means you're not driving it hard enough, and that's fine too. Not everyone enjoys taking a turn at 8-9/10ths.

But for the 335i with 300hp/300lbft to not have an LSD is kinda sad. I can't imagine driving it with DSC even partially off. But you can already see the results of that in those 2 video reviews that have been posted elsewhere on this forum. Anytime the driver powers out of a corner you only see one tire mark on the ground (the wheel on the inside corner) and the driver has to counter-steer madly to catch the tail as that tire slips too much.
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      07-16-2006, 06:44 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shimshimhada
Not that easy, all ///Ms are equipped with better components in almost every aspect. In straightline performance, with it being FI, I'm sure with a couple thousand in engine mods, you could easily make it outperform the new M3. But then you'd need a stronger tranny, along with some other strengthened parts to handle the torque. With that and the other stuff you mentioned, you'd easily reach the M3 price range. So, why not just get a M3 in the first place with a warranty, better styling, and just a overall better platform to begin with?
I understand where you are coming from.

But the tranny issue is still unknown right? I think the new tranny might be considerable more beefy. If that turns out to be true, I think you will be able to get 80-90% to an M3 for only 50% of the price differential. I think that by the time the M3 hits the streets late next year, we are going to see 335s already "matching" them.

Bottom line is you don't want to spend all the cash on an M3 and then get smoked by a "lowly 3 series". It just doesn't sit well. Sure this could happen with any of the past generations. But I think this time, it might be a more common occurence. As a general rule, FI from the factory = cheap modability.

Quote:
Let's say you do all of that stuff anyway, then some guy gets a blower on his V8. Game over
Yeah, but you're going to have to crack the motor almost for sure. The high compression won't allow FI, at least not easily. Just like on the E46, its going to take forever for someone to come out with a kit. Its just going to be too expensive. I don't think you'll see many Ms around with forced induction.
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      07-16-2006, 08:16 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akhbhaat
LSD has absolutely no affect upon handling, per se - what it does affect is power delivery during corner exit. A LSD equipped RWD car distributes power to the rear wheels in such a way that maximizes traction, enabling the driver to use the engine's power to help rotate the car's rear axle - this basically means less understeer and more power to the ground when applying throttle, so the driver can effectively apply power sooner when exiting a corner. This can make a huge difference in lap times.

With an open differential, much of the power will be wasted on the inside drive wheel (which will spin without abandon) - increasing understeer and reducing acceleration. This isn't so much a problem in a fairly weak car like a 325i (I've seldom found a pronounced need for an limited slip in my 323i aside from some tighter hairpins), but with 300 hp and 300 ft-lbs of readily available torque, the 335i is really going to suffer for it.

Based on the numbers I've seen, a 335i with an LSD and a bit of minor suspension work has the potential to be an E46 M3 killer - but BMW isn't going to give it to us that easily. Nevertheless, anybody who actually takes the time to track their 335i will probably invest in the needed goodies at some point, so M3 drivers had better watch out.

The only real upside to not having an LSD (besides a reduction in the mechanical complexity of the drivetrain) is the fact that open diff equipped cars are more stable and easier to drive than LSD equipped cars - but, as we all know, stability (whether referring to cars, boats or airplanes) usually means an equally staid level of agility.

What you say is illustrated in the video clip that was posted on this site, which featured the blue coupe (http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24172). On the mountain switchbacks the driver was smoking the inside tire all the time. I do not recall ever seeing the tail end swing around.
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