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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > NA Engine (non-turbo) / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications > Proof that the Fujita intake SUCKS



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      05-05-2006, 11:44 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 335e90
unless the hp difference is very significant. The environments from the 2 dynos shouldn't be too different anyways(but I think we can see what conditions it was tested under on some part of the dyno sheet.)
The hp difference is irrelevant at this point in terms of a true and equal comparsion, once the catback system was added to the car the "control environment" has been modified and you can no longer have a valid comparsion test. All things must be equal on the car to be able to prove the true difference.

Like I said before, I'm not saying there isn't an issue with the intake. What I am saying is that it is now impossible to see what the true difference is because the condition of the car has changed from one dyno to the next.
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      05-05-2006, 11:57 PM   #90
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i really still dont get why everyone cannot simply agree on things sometimes, the dyno results are clearly stated with the intake, and on anohter thread someone dynoed a stock 325 in manual with about 200HP to the wheels....i dont think having an auto would drop your hp that much...

and anyways, you guys sound childish and stubborn when you think too hard and start excuses like the world didnt move fast enough at that moment so the dyno didnt properly record the HP...

.i know there are variables on dyno's (temp,pressure, and air) but cmon dont be so stubborn, IM TELLING YOU THIS THING IS A PIECE OF SHIT, HE LOST HP NO REASON TO ARGUE FURTHER!
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      05-06-2006, 12:07 AM   #91
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unbelievable............
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      05-06-2006, 12:14 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by NaTuReB0Y
unbelievable............
. Nice. For God sake let's make sure scientific logic doesn't get introduced to a conversation. I mean who has time for benchmarking and standard procedures like that.

BTW, I think I grew 14 inches today. I just measured my height and I'm 6'2. I didn't measure myself this morning but I'm pretty sure I was only 5'0.
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      05-06-2006, 12:18 AM   #93
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"assumption is the mother of all fuck ups...."
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      05-06-2006, 12:24 AM   #94
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and the mother of all fuck ups, is fajita...........
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      05-06-2006, 12:24 AM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NaTuReB0Y
"assumption is the mother of all fuck ups...."
Word. "It's true because I said so!..." stopped working for me about the time I was big enough to stomp my dad ass.
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      05-06-2006, 12:26 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Driv3r
and the mother of all fuck ups, is fajita...........
you mean Fujita.......fajita is a Mexican food item....hahaha...
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      05-06-2006, 12:26 AM   #97
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matsarge, not trying to get scientific here einstein but i beleive i incorporated common variables, such as, (temp, pressure, and air circulation)
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      05-06-2006, 12:29 AM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NaTuReB0Y
you mean Fujita.......fajita is a Mexican food item....hahaha...
i dont know what you are saying, what is a fujita? is this something we can eat too? or maybe its someway of taking a shit...im guessing it is related to pieces of shit.
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      05-06-2006, 12:38 AM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Driv3r
matsarge, not trying to get scientific here einstein but i beleive i incorporated common variables, such as, (temp, pressure, and air circulation)
Then let me give you a quick science lesson einstein. The car is the control enviroment. Slight changes in variables such as temp, earth rotation and current alignment with the sun, whatever are only as good as the integrity of the control environment. For comparsion testing on a piece of a control environment to be valid, only that piece of the enviroment can change (i.e. running a test with one intake then running a test with a different one.) NOTHING else on the control itself can change. The integrity of the control environment was broken as soon as the catback system was added to the car. Once that occurs, any attempt to create a "comparison" is null and void. End of story.
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      05-06-2006, 01:03 AM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matsarge
Then let me give you a quick science lesson einstein. The car is the control enviroment. Slight changes in variables such as temp, earth rotation and current alignment with the sun, whatever are only as good as the integrity of the control environment. For comparsion testing on a piece of a control environment to be valid, only that piece of the enviroment can change (i.e. running a test with one intake then running a test with a different one.) NOTHING else on the control itself can change. The integrity of the control environment was broken as soon as the catback system was added to the car. Once that occurs, any attempt to create a "comparison" is null and void. End of story.

i concur
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      05-06-2006, 01:57 AM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matsarge
Then let me give you a quick science lesson einstein. The car is the control enviroment. Slight changes in variables such as temp, earth rotation and current alignment with the sun, whatever are only as good as the integrity of the control environment. For comparsion testing on a piece of a control environment to be valid, only that piece of the enviroment can change (i.e. running a test with one intake then running a test with a different one.) NOTHING else on the control itself can change. The integrity of the control environment was broken as soon as the catback system was added to the car. Once that occurs, any attempt to create a "comparison" is null and void. End of story.
Wow. You try to sound very smart, but if you want such accuracy, go visit mars or something.
As long as you, mr.einstein, live in a place called earth, where dyno is only place for regular drivers to get power measurement out of, thats all we got.

Since that is all we got, that is valid comparison. Stop arguing over a... what was your term? "Null" point.

As long as conditions are *similar on the two different dyno days, its good enough.
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      05-06-2006, 02:06 AM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lux.sh
Wow. You try to sound very smart, but if you want such accuracy, go visit mars or something.
As long as you, mr.einstein, live in a place called earth, where dyno is only place for regular drivers to get power measurement out of, thats all we got.

Since that is all we got, that is valid comparison. Stop arguing over a... what was your term? "Null" point.

As long as conditions are *similar on the two different dyno days, its good enough.
So based on your comment, say I run a dyno on my car today and it comes out at 230 HP with a certain intake. Then a week from now I put a different intake on the car but let's say I've also added a new exhaust system and now the car has 240 HP. The change of 10 HP is completely due to the intake because the conditions are "similar" and that's good enough for a comparsion of the difference between two intakes. How much of the difference can be attributed to the exhaust? I wouldn't be able to tell.

If I want to be able to tell I would have to put the original intake back on and re-run a dyno with it to get a new baseline then run a dyno with the new intake to see the true difference between them.

BTW, it's easy to sound smart when you are.

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      05-06-2006, 05:31 AM   #103
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Agreed. Sorry to say, but any high school student who's had the scientific method drilled into their skull will tell you that we cannot reliably conclude anything with the data we have now. I'm not saying we should have hunter go and waste all his money on dynos to appease us, but there are simply too many variables unaccounted for to make any real conclusions. I mean come on, using Guess' manual car's dyno numbers? You can't compare the two. Automatics always lose more power than a manual due to the torque converter. Besides that and all the other environmental variables, nobody seems to even be able to properly dyno a steptronic BMW. Like matsarge said, he'll need to run two dynos back to back with the two different intakes now that he's got the catback.
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      05-06-2006, 06:45 AM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arcrox
Agreed. Sorry to say, but any high school student who's had the scientific method drilled into their skull will tell you that we cannot reliably conclude anything with the data we have now. I'm not saying we should have hunter go and waste all his money on dynos to appease us, but there are simply too many variables unaccounted for to make any real conclusions. I mean come on, using Guess' manual car's dyno numbers? You can't compare the two. Automatics always lose more power than a manual due to the torque converter. Besides that and all the other environmental variables, nobody seems to even be able to properly dyno a steptronic BMW. Like matsarge said, he'll need to run two dynos back to back with the two different intakes now that he's got the catback.
Exactly the point I'm making. I'm not asking Hunter to spend any more money on dyno's either and it sucks that he had those issues and had to waste more money to make it right, we just can't make any valid conclusions at this point.
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      05-06-2006, 11:56 AM   #105
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I have to chime in and back up Matsarge here. He did not come acorss as a smartass, and I don't think it's cool to label him as such.

In any scientific experient, if you want to test the effect(s) of one factor, you have to have a controlled environment where everything else other than the factor you're looking at is constant.
And Matsarge's suggestion is the best way to see if the Fujita intake is of any good: by running back to back dyno with hunter's new catback w/ and w/o the intake.

Quote:
Originally Posted by matsarge
Exactly the point I'm making. I'm not asking Hunter to spend any more money on dyno's either and it sucks that he had those issues and had to waste more money to make it right, we just can't make any valid conclusions at this point.
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      05-06-2006, 02:27 PM   #106
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matsarge.......you are absolutely correct. Once the control factor has been changed.....all is lost!

i do teach 3rd grade science........and the kids understand it perfectly!
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      05-06-2006, 03:13 PM   #107
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      05-06-2006, 03:14 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matsarge
So based on your comment, say I run a dyno on my car today and it comes out at 230 HP with a certain intake. Then a week from now I put a different intake on the car but let's say I've also added a new exhaust system and now the car has 240 HP. The change of 10 HP is completely due to the intake because the conditions are "similar" and that's good enough for a comparsion of the difference between two intakes. How much of the difference can be attributed to the exhaust? I wouldn't be able to tell.
thats so far what we do, what every other magazine testers do, and thats all we got.
I never said its accurate result, nor disagree with controlling the environment. I just said DEAL WITH IT. OF COURSE, when a variable is changed in an environment, result will be DIFFERENT. but we can't keep everything at the same, since we don't have some sort of dyno dome where we can keep all the control variables the same. What we can do is to keep things very "similar" and at least try to see some close-enough results.

goddamn. some people just don't understand.
As long as following conditions are similar, we can pretty say the difference is minimal(again, not accurate nor perfect) for at least what we have right now in year two thousand fucking six:
-Outside temperature -Humid -Engine bay temperature -CEL check -minimal mileage difference on the car -gas used - same power fans @ same power - same dyno facility

This is tuning world, and this is how we most likely do it.
If you disagree, and want to keep up with your scientific theories and controlled environment crap, take it to NASA or something. this is not a place for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by matsarge
BTW, it's easy to sound smart when you are.
Other way around. Smart people don't "sound" smart to others.
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      05-06-2006, 03:20 PM   #109
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wow. did you ask fajita company regarding this new result?
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      05-06-2006, 04:39 PM   #110
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huh?
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