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View Poll Results: Who's the next pres?
Hilary Clinton 34 29.57%
Barack Obama 36 31.30%
Rudy Guiliani 11 9.57%
Fred Thompson 4 3.48%
John McCain 9 7.83%
John Edwards 3 2.61%
Other 18 15.65%
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      01-18-2008, 11:53 AM   #89
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my 2 cents:

1. "weapons of mass destruction" found = 0, The "intellegence" he had obviously wasn't that credible, or they would have found something...unlike the intelliegence they had warning them that 9/11 was going to happen.:wink:

2. How are you less safe? Well rights of many Americans were seemingly suspensed, and can be pretty much done at any point, due to suspicision of being a terrorist, or involved in terroist activies...not to mention that bombing the shit out of 2 countries is going to leave a lot of pissed off people, they might smile at gun holding soldiers as they walk by, but at home they will probably be telling their children how their family was killed...:iono:

which ties into 3. A whole new generation of hate filled children, that one day might try to strike back again...

Not to do dump on the States, but Bush's actions were stupid from the get-go...he used the armed forces to lash out like a beaten child with a knife, or a kid in high school with a gun...It's unfortunate that he couldn't find a more peaceful way to act, but in the midst of all the pain that 9/11 caused, the people rallied and called for action.

Violence only begets more violence...Now I'm not saying to do nothing was necessarily the right way, but a measured response would have been better. How was the bombing of major cities, and deaths of thousands of people any better then the hijacking of planes? Perhaps Afghanistan was somewhat "justified", but Iraq was something else, it wasn't about getting Saddam out of power, it wasn't about "weapons of mass destruction"...And in the end, the cycle continues.
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      01-18-2008, 03:59 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khobin~ View Post
my 2 cents:

1. "weapons of mass destruction" found = 0, The "intellegence" he had obviously wasn't that credible, or they would have found something...unlike the intelliegence they had warning them that 9/11 was going to happen.:wink:

2. How are you less safe? Well rights of many Americans were seemingly suspensed, and can be pretty much done at any point, due to suspicision of being a terrorist, or involved in terroist activies...not to mention that bombing the shit out of 2 countries is going to leave a lot of pissed off people, they might smile at gun holding soldiers as they walk by, but at home they will probably be telling their children how their family was killed...:iono:

which ties into 3. A whole new generation of hate filled children, that one day might try to strike back again...

Not to do dump on the States, but Bush's actions were stupid from the get-go...he used the armed forces to lash out like a beaten child with a knife, or a kid in high school with a gun...It's unfortunate that he couldn't find a more peaceful way to act, but in the midst of all the pain that 9/11 caused, the people rallied and called for action.

Violence only begets more violence...Now I'm not saying to do nothing was necessarily the right way, but a measured response would have been better. How was the bombing of major cities, and deaths of thousands of people any better then the hijacking of planes? Perhaps Afghanistan was somewhat "justified", but Iraq was something else, it wasn't about getting Saddam out of power, it wasn't about "weapons of mass destruction"...And in the end, the cycle continues.

I agree with some of what you said, but I think it's unquestionable that we had to act in Afghanistan.

It may not be a popular opinion, but if I were president I probably would have used nuclear force to turn Afghanistan into a sea of glass. IMO, that would have send a stronger message than going in at less than full strength, and pulling out to go somewhere unrelated.

I think that would have sent a clear message. You kill 2,000 of ours, we kill 4.5 million of yours. Tis better to be feared, than loved.
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      01-18-2008, 04:26 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E82TT6 View Post
I think that would have sent a clear message. You kill 2,000 of ours, we kill 4.5 million of yours. Tis better to be feared, than loved.
Swordfish foreign policy?
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      01-18-2008, 04:27 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khobin~ View Post
my 2 cents:

1. "weapons of mass destruction" found = 0, The "intellegence" he had obviously wasn't that credible, or they would have found something...unlike the intelliegence they had warning them that 9/11 was going to happen.:wink:
So the intelligence was credible, then it wasn't? Ehh... you will have to explain that to me. And, again, there were more agencies than just the CIA that were advising the US. There were at least 5 credible reports which the US acted on, IIRC.

BTW, the US did find weapons of mass destruction in the form of thousands of pounds of sarin and mustard gas. But that little factoid seems to be ignored by the press.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khobin
2. How are you less safe? Well rights of many Americans were seemingly suspensed, and can be pretty much done at any point, due to suspicision of being a terrorist, or involved in terroist activies...not to mention that bombing the shit out of 2 countries is going to leave a lot of pissed off people, they might smile at gun holding soldiers as they walk by, but at home they will probably be telling their children how their family was killed...:iono:
How is this being less safe? We can debate the privacy issue all we want, but we still aren't less safe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khobin
Perhaps Afghanistan was somewhat "justified", but Iraq was something else, it wasn't about getting Saddam out of power, it wasn't about "weapons of mass destruction"...And in the end, the cycle continues.
...I smell the oil argument coming...

I guess my question to those that were (are) against the war is: Is doing nothing a legitimate alternative? Remember, 9/11 happened before we invaded Iraq. So the "hornet's nest" argument isn't ringing true with me. Anyway, good question for discussion as I would be very curious to see what many of you would have done (or will do) given the same intelligence at the same time (as in, not knowing what we know now).

Quote:
Originally Posted by E82TT6
It's simply indisputable that Al Quaeda is stronger now. Every credible intelligence source states as much.
Post one. I would like to see a credible intelligence source that states that we US citizens are less safe now than in back in 2003. Perhaps I have missed these reports (a pretty good probability of that, actually)...

Quote:
Originally Posted by E82TT6
0 connection between Iraq and Islamic Terrorism.
That is profoundly inaccurate. Even the United Nations recognized that Iraq was a state-sponsor of terrorism. Heck, many would argue that the way he treated many of his citizens was terrorism itself.

BTW, seeing as we have a fair amount of Barack supporters here, I thought I would share this image I got in an email the other day:

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      01-18-2008, 05:18 PM   #93
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Heh, I like that bumper sticker.

As for the recent intelligence estimates showing that Iraq made things less safe, here's a quick one off the first link in a google search, I'm sure I could dig up more in-depth information if I spent a few minutes looking around.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/24/wo.../24terror.html


Iraq was a terrorist state, in terms of how it treated the Kurds... but I don't think one can argue that there was any connection between them and Al Quaeda or 9/11, at least not beyond a completely superficial level.

That's why you'll find video clips of Bush appointees claiming that Saddam played a role in 9/11, then later claiming that they never said such a thing :wink:.

Trying to link Iraq to 9/11 in the minds of Americans was strictly a political play, at least as far as I can see. I have never seen any evidence suggesting that Osama and Saddam were buddies, infact, most of what I've seen suggests just the opposite.
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      01-18-2008, 06:57 PM   #94
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Well, the connection between Saddam and 9/11 is disputable, which is to say unclear. But there is no denying that Saddam and Iraq was a state-sponsor of terror, meaning that Iraq was connected to Al Quaeda through financial support mainly (that, in and of itself, is a main reason why Al Quaeda had a strong presence in Iraq).

As for the report, surely the "overall" threat has worsened (that's what happens in war) but my comment was focused purely at the threat US citizens in their picket fenced houses face from Islamic terrorists. In other words, is it more or less safe to fly on airplanes five years after 9/11? That report (or, I should, say "article") was very vague on what it meant by the "overall" threat. Finally, I would be curious to see what the report would say now, after the surge has had an impact.

Regardless, I would agree that linking Saddam with 9/11 was a political play. I don't know if he had any financial involvement but, again, there was no question that Saddam harbored Al Quaeda.
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      01-18-2008, 10:13 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MPower View Post
Well, the connection between Saddam and 9/11 is disputable, which is to say unclear. But there is no denying that Saddam and Iraq was a state-sponsor of terror, meaning that Iraq was connected to Al Quaeda through financial support mainly (that, in and of itself, is a main reason why Al Quaeda had a strong presence in Iraq).

As for the report, surely the "overall" threat has worsened (that's what happens in war) but my comment was focused purely at the threat US citizens in their picket fenced houses face from Islamic terrorists. In other words, is it more or less safe to fly on airplanes five years after 9/11? That report (or, I should, say "article") was very vague on what it meant by the "overall" threat. Finally, I would be curious to see what the report would say now, after the surge has had an impact.

Regardless, I would agree that linking Saddam with 9/11 was a political play. I don't know if he had any financial involvement but, again, there was no question that Saddam harbored Al Quaeda.

Here's what Fox News had to say about the LATEST national intelligence istemate regarding the middle east:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,289698,00.html

I couldn't find the actual document, unfortunately, but I'll keep digging.

As for the whole Iraq/Al Quaeda thing, I'm under the impression that the government had absolutely nothing to do with Al Quaeda, and infact Osama wanted Saddams head. If I'm not mistaken, part of the reason Al Quaeda turned against us is when we wouldn't let them help us during the first gulf war. Osama was offended that the U.S. (his former allies) would shun him, and then run an operation off of his home turf (Saudi Arabia).

I could be mistaken, but that's how I remember things. I've certainly never seen anything to indicate any links between Al Quaeda and Iraq. I'm pretty sure that's why Cheney and co. stopped making those accusations shortly after the war started, and then went back to deny having ever tried to make those false links.

Again, it's all a matter of opinion, and the individual in question, as to real safety. I'm 11 miles out of Manhattan, which puts me more at risk than your average individual living is Missouri or Wisconsin. I don't think anyone's safety on an airplane has gone downhill. However, I'm of the mind that the mishandling of the Iraq invasion hasn't really done anything to make us more secure. If anything, I believe it's made things worse, by helping to create a new generation of Islamic Terrorists who have it out for the US.



PS:I'm blind, I just noticed that the link to the report is in the Fox News article I linked.
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      01-18-2008, 11:30 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E82TT6 View Post
As for the whole Iraq/Al Quaeda thing, I'm under the impression that the government had absolutely nothing to do with Al Quaeda, and infact Osama wanted Saddams head. If I'm not mistaken, part of the reason Al Quaeda turned against us is when we wouldn't let them help us during the first gulf war. Osama was offended that the U.S. (his former allies) would shun him, and then run an operation off of his home turf (Saudi Arabia).

I could be mistaken, but that's how I remember things. I've certainly never seen anything to indicate any links between Al Quaeda and Iraq. I'm pretty sure that's why Cheney and co. stopped making those accusations shortly after the war started, and then went back to deny having ever tried to make those false links.
The taliban/Osama were also pissed because of how the US helped arm them to gain power, and suddenly dropped that support when things got rough:wink:

Oh, and there's another link between Afghanistan and Iraq...the US also helped Saddam

Not trying to say that the US gov't is responsible for what either of those 2 did while in power, but think, if it had kept it's nose out of things, then there'd be less people pissed at them.:wink:

Unfortunately though, the acts of a few, can affect many.

Above you said, "Tis better to be feared, than loved." ...would that not be in effect be terrorism?

Terrorism is the act of creating terror/fear....and as Yoda said "Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering."

Anyways...what was the real topic of this thread again??:biggrin:
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      01-18-2008, 11:56 PM   #97
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A suppose you could call it a form of terrorism. Fighting Terror with Terror, heh.

Something political was the begining of the thread, which inevitably leads to things going OT ;-)
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      01-19-2008, 01:02 AM   #98
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Well, I had a nice post typed up but the back button destroyed that one... pps:

Anyway, I would like to go back to a question that I posed previously: Is doing nothing a legitimate alternative? I am curious to see how many of you would have acted. On the one had, we supposedly have this brand of terrorist that is out to destroy America. On the other hand, if that brand of terrorist does exist, would it not seem silly to allow that fundamental hatred to exist? Also, going back to national security, would it be in our best interest to allow this brand of terrorist to brew?

P.S. Thanks E82TT6 for digging those links up. Very fascinating to take a look at the different perspectives.
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      01-19-2008, 10:06 AM   #99
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We helped Afghanistan defeat Communism because there was a Cold War going on and it was a whole lot cheaper and easier for the American people to stomach having the Afghans fight for us. However, it makes you wonder who is supplying them now in the hopes they will defeat us...

Some experts believe we cut our aid after they defeated Russia when we should have doubled it for building schools and creating security in that nation. What was it we were trying to do in Iraq right now?... Oh but thats right, we should probably pull out because we are just creating more hate, I am sure they would love us all of the sudden if we did.

Make no mistake, the fight is for the future of Iraq and we must win it otherwise we will be back soon and often.

We helped Saddam defeat Iran. Sometimes you have to pick sides and neither is a good one.

And the last note; I can't speak for all, but I gladly will fight our enemies and those that intend to do us harm on their own soil if not for just the simple purpose that their efforts may be focussed on killing me and not my family back home. I am trained and supplied for that sort of thing, the people in the WTC were not. Hopefully those wishing to do Americans wrong can find people to pick a fight with in there own living room when some 18 year old kid from a little town in the midwest kicks open their front door as they build bombs to send to that kid's front door.

Thank you for your support and taxes.

Sleep well, they aren't.

Fight them there where we can win, not here.
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      01-19-2008, 12:26 PM   #100
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Some generalized comments - food for thought and something of a filter that I use to judge candidates for office (there, that keeps it almost on-topic ; -):
[rambling]
  • Defending our borders is best done as far away from our borders as possible - that's one of the lessons that is difficult for many to understand (including a whole bunch of politicians).
  • This country has never been truly an 'isolationist' nation, hell we fought the war of 1812 for free trade, we took on the Barbary pirates for that reason also. We have intervened more often than most people recognize. We will continue to do so, regardless of what politicians say, as long as we are attached to this planet. (A very good book to understand the first two points is, "Imperial Grunts", by Robert Kaplan).
  • 9/11 wasn't about defeating America. The complete lack of follow-up strikes is the first clue as to what it really was. It was a recruiting tool for al Queda (and extraordinarily effective). That's why so many jihadis have been found and eliminated in Iraq. The problem al Queda is currently having in Iraq (which they label as the most important battle in global jihad at the moment) is our anti-recruiting poster for wannabe jihadis, us plinking jihadis.
  • There are a finite number of jihadis under arms and there are a finite number of jihadis in waiting. Kill them when they're young and they don't spawn. That should be evident when you look at how tough it is to find suitable recruits for Special Operations soldiers. There are only a small number of people that fit the profile and can do the job.
  • There is good and evil. And if you think there is no evil go back and look, view the video, of what happened to Daniel Pearl.
  • The jihadis hate us because they don't rule the world and we, and sometimes we alone, stand between them and that goal. Their beliefs posit that god has left them in charge and we should be be obedient to them. (Any 'religious' belief that claims they can bring 'paradise-on-earth' should be avoided like the plague, that includes the Gaian's (and their fellow travelers), communism and most religious fundamentalism).
  • Treat people as individuals, not as members of groups, and you'll be surprised at the goodness most people can exhibit.
[/rambling]
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      01-19-2008, 12:34 PM   #101
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I definitely don't think doing nothing is a viable alternative. I just don't know if Iraq should have been our first stop. As I said, I would have taken much more drastic action with Afghanistan, but I'm not sure if that was really a viable action. Over dealing with Saddam, I would have prioritised:
1. Saudi Arabia. They may be an "ally", but they're the biggest financial supporter to terrorism in the world, and most of the 9/11 attackers came from this country.
2. Afghanistan/Pakistan border. I don't think I need to elaborate too much on this one. :wink:
3. North Korea. Not Islamic, but a big threat to nat'l security, IMO. They're desperate and crazy enough to actually do something dumb, and I wouldn't put it past them the hand Osama a bomb.
4. Iran. The IAEA needs complete access, period.

After that, I would take a look at what could be done in Iraq. Now that we're there, and are trying to build a new nation, we obviously can't just up and leave. I don't think even Edwards (who seems the most gung-ho about getting out fast) would really pull out all troops immediately. Obama is on reccord saying he would talk to the generals, and would not remove troops critical to fighting Al Quaeda in Iraq, even if he did move towards ending the occupation.

I know our men and women are doing an A+ job over there, and I'm confident they'll do whatever needs to be done. I'd just like to see a little more flexibility at the top, as far as strategic vision goes. I'd like to see more pressure put on the nascent Iraqi government to get a move on. Our guys are in the thick of it, and it'd be nice to see some more action from them in terms of moving the country forward.

Just my two pennies. It goes without saying, that I have nothing but admiration and respect for the members of our armed forces. I think they're doing a great job, and will continue to.
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      01-23-2008, 08:42 AM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atr_hugo View Post
Some generalized comments - food for thought and something of a filter that I use to judge candidates for office (there, that keeps it almost on-topic ; -):

[rambling]
  • Defending our borders is best done as far away from our borders as possible - that's one of the lessons that is difficult for many to understand (including a whole bunch of politicians).
  • This country has never been truly an 'isolationist' nation, hell we fought the war of 1812 for free trade, we took on the Barbary pirates for that reason also. We have intervened more often than most people recognize. We will continue to do so, regardless of what politicians say, as long as we are attached to this planet. (A very good book to understand the first two points is, "Imperial Grunts", by Robert Kaplan).
  • 9/11 wasn't about defeating America. The complete lack of follow-up strikes is the first clue as to what it really was. It was a recruiting tool for al Queda (and extraordinarily effective). That's why so many jihadis have been found and eliminated in Iraq. The problem al Queda is currently having in Iraq (which they label as the most important battle in global jihad at the moment) is our anti-recruiting poster for wannabe jihadis, us plinking jihadis.
  • There are a finite number of jihadis under arms and there are a finite number of jihadis in waiting. Kill them when they're young and they don't spawn. That should be evident when you look at how tough it is to find suitable recruits for Special Operations soldiers. There are only a small number of people that fit the profile and can do the job.
  • There is good and evil. And if you think there is no evil go back and look, view the video, of what happened to Daniel Pearl.
  • The jihadis hate us because they don't rule the world and we, and sometimes we alone, stand between them and that goal. Their beliefs posit that god has left them in charge and we should be be obedient to them. (Any 'religious' belief that claims they can bring 'paradise-on-earth' should be avoided like the plague, that includes the Gaian's (and their fellow travelers), communism and most religious fundamentalism).
  • Treat people as individuals, not as members of groups, and you'll be surprised at the goodness most people can exhibit.
[/rambling]
Finally....rational, pragmatic thought based on fact, rather than irrelvant drivel from the Bush-sucks, life-is-unfair, Republicans-are-dangerous crowd.
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      01-27-2008, 12:54 PM   #103
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      02-01-2008, 12:53 AM   #104
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Well, I haven't posted in here for a while mainly because I just needed a break... my head was about to explode (not because of anyone's opinion, just because politics gets complicated).

Anyway, I can not believe that the Republican party is about to nominate McCain. You might be looking at a Democrat vote, right now. I desperately, desperately want Romney to get this nomination.
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      02-01-2008, 02:12 AM   #105
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Quote:
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Well, I haven't posted in here for a while mainly because I just needed a break... my head was about to explode (not because of anyone's opinion, just because politics gets complicated).

Anyway, I can not believe that the Republican party is about to nominate McCain. You might be looking at a Democrat vote, right now. I desperately, desperately want Romney to get this nomination.
Thats bizarre to me. I was listening to NPR, which I never do, and two republican phoned in saying if McCain gets the nomination they will vote for the other party.
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      02-01-2008, 08:22 AM   #106
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Could it be that Republican primary/caucus voting, i.e. the people, are showing their displeasure with the traditional conservative/Bush contingent of the Party and want changes?

It appears to me that the Republicans are going to go into the National Election a fractured party, the Democrats will be powerfully united, and I predict a Democratic landslide. Just my opinion, YMMV.
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      02-01-2008, 08:50 AM   #107
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Could it be that Republican primary/caucus voting, i.e. the people, are showing their displeasure with the traditional conservative/Bush contingent of the Party and want changes?

It appears to me that the Republicans are going to go into the National Election a fractured party, the Democrats will be powerfully united, and I predict a Democratic landslide. Just my opinion, YMMV.
Interesting assessment Mikeo...On the other hand, I do know a lot of Republicans that would never switch party lines to vote for the Democrats. It dosent matter how dissappointed they are with their party. I guess them not voting at all equates to them voting for the other party. Sort of...
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      02-01-2008, 09:02 AM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeo View Post
Could it be that Republican primary/caucus voting, i.e. the people, are showing their displeasure with the traditional conservative/Bush contingent of the Party and want changes?

It appears to me that the Republicans are going to go into the National Election a fractured party, the Democrats will be powerfully united, and I predict a Democratic landslide. Just my opinion, YMMV.
I would agree if the democrats had a halfway decent candidate

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      02-01-2008, 09:05 AM   #109
mikeo
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I'm certainly no PolySci major, but it is beginning to look like the Republicans need to rally 'round the flag or they will be in trouble come November. Could all change by the convention, of course.
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      02-01-2008, 12:16 PM   #110
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With John Edwards now out of the race, please shift my vote over to Obama.

So as of today, 36 for Obama, 2 for Edwards.

Nixon For Obama!!
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