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      06-20-2008, 03:01 PM   #23
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Here is some old information for a presentation given to my school from an industry professional. I also work in the oil industry as well. You can see how dated this is, but if gas is ~$5/gal, $1 of that is tax...and CAMike, my old presentation also lists the oil industry's profit margin at below the industry average for several years up to 2004 when it was ~7%...so I believe your numbers, and that doesn't seem excessive to me. The big thing in the industry about the claim of excessive profits and windfall taxes is basically "where was the government when oil droped below $20?" Everyone wants to tax the oil industry now when they are making money, but when the industry was struggling, people were being laid off, fields were being shut in because it cost more to run the pumps than the oil was worth...no one cared. If anyone is interested I could post the presentation power point somewhere (although I do not know if there are any rules against this...)

_______________________Feb 2006_____Dec 2003
________________________$/Gal ___% ___$/Gal
Crude Price........................$1.50...56.4%...$0.74
Federal Excise Taxes.........$0.18...6.8%.....$0.18
State Excise Taxes.............$0.18...6.8%.....$0.18
State Sales Taxes, 8.25%....$0.20...7.5%.....$0.14
Refining..............................$0.38...14.3 %...$0.38
Distribution & Marketing.....$0.22...8.3%.....$0.22
Total...................................$2.66..... ..........$1.84

$.56 per gallon or 21% of the cost is taxes!
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      06-20-2008, 08:11 PM   #24
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I'm not advocating for a Socialist approach but things need some sort of checks and balances and right now there are none in the energy sector. Again...just my opinion
You can partially blame the current crew in the White House for that. Bush is an oil man...he even gave them huge tax breaks for christsakes. That sort of crap doesn't help anyone except the handful at the top. (That's not what the republicans will tell you though, I guess it's just easier to deny reality from their view in the ivory towers.)
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      06-20-2008, 08:48 PM   #25
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$2 a gallon.... LOL
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      06-20-2008, 10:15 PM   #26
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FYI...

This is a picture I took at a German Esso station when I topped off my X3 on 11 April 08.

98,74 Euro = $158.00

65 Liters = 17.19 Gallons

$9.19 Per Gallon
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      06-20-2008, 10:44 PM   #27
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2.99 if you punks didn't buy a 1 and bought a jeep

Choose or lose :headbang:
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      06-20-2008, 10:56 PM   #28
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Trying to use prices from other parts of the world to show "how good we have it" does nothing but help support the higher prices we are paying. You are not comparing apples to apples. Tax structures, octane ratings, services provided at the station (how many workers do you usually see at a Euro gas station-MANY, how many do you see at a US gas station...one or two and they do both the store and the gas. I know that may be an over generalization but those people have to get paid somehow), etc. are not the same as we have in the states so trying to compare is futile. Does gas cost more in Europe, yep. but their "low grade" gas often times has a higher octane rating than our "premium" in the states. Taxes account for a much greater amount of the gas price in Europe as well. I know the point you are trying to make and yes, we do have it "good" in the states when it comes to gas prices but again, I don't think it is a fair comparison as all things are not equal between the two. Living in Europe, as you do, we see (and feel) those price differences when we have to buy gas on the economy and it does suck, I agree. I am thankful we have a gas program that allows us to buy gas at a MUCH cheaper rate. Seeing the effect $4.00 per gallon has had on the US economy...what do you think $9.00 per gallon would do?!! I can only imagine.
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      06-21-2008, 12:04 AM   #29
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Also, when oil is based on the US dollar, and the euro > than the dollar, the price they pay for gas is somewhat dampened when the price of oil goes up, whereas in the US it is not...things would be worse for us if they based oil on the euro...
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      06-21-2008, 07:02 AM   #30
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[quote=CAMike;178323]Trying to use prices from other parts of the world to show "how good we have it" does nothing but help support the higher prices we are paying. You are not comparing apples to apples....

...I know the point you are trying to make and yes, we do have it "good" in the states when it comes to gas prices but again, I don't think it is a fair comparison as all things are not equal between the two."


I was not aware that I made a point. I simply posted a picture and translated the numbers into U.S. equivalences.

I now realize that the price per gallon in a larger font could possibly raise suspicion about a hidden agenda.

I merely wanted to see what would happen.

Counterpoint:

A picture is worth a 1000 words.

I know that an image is a statement. Life is fun. :wink:
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      06-24-2008, 11:44 AM   #31
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The Surprising Truth About Gas Prices

Posted by: Mark Scott on June 04

Conventional wisdom has it that Europeans pay more for gas than their U.S. counterparts. With prices topping $8 a gallon across the continent (compared to roughly $4 in America), Europeans could be forgiven for taking a ‘you don’t know how good you have it’ attitude to U.S. drivers balking at the soaring cost of filling their tanks.
Yet do Europeans really fork out more for gas? In a telling piece, the guys over at Babeled lay out the true costs of gas prices on both sides of the Atlantic. Their conclusion — Europeans in fact pay 95 cents less than Americans before taxes are levied. In the U.S., for example, they reckon about 11% of the final cost per gallon goes to Uncle Sam, compared to 70% of gas prices being pocketed by European governments.
Why does gas cost less in Europe than in the States (excluding taxes)? Well, the 26.7% discount that Europeans pay roughly coincides with the dollar's depreciation against the Euro (27%) over the past five years. That means gas costs pretty much the same when you remove taxes and adjust for foreign exchange rates.
Despite the similar costs for getting gas to the pump, the disparity between tax rates in Europe and the U.S. has become a hot-button issue. Indeed, soon after Senators John McCain and Hillary Clinton proposed a gas tax holiday, French President Nicolas Sarkozy suggested capping fuel taxes across the European Union to counter rising gas prices. That followed protests in Britain, France, Spain, Italy, and the Netherlands from hauliers and fisherman who feel squeezed by the rising cost of oil.
Sarkozy's plan drew quick criticism from other E.U. politicians. Their message to the French president was summed up by a European Commission spokesperson: "Changing taxation on fuels in order to combat increasing prices would send the wrong message to producing countries. This would show them that they could increase prices, and citizens would have to pay for this. So that's really the wrong message."
Brussels may have won this battle, but it's anyone's guess who will win the overall war. European politicians often have kowtowed to local constituencies in the past, and it would take a strong leader to turn a blind eye to domestic protests over rising fuel costs (particularly when elections start to loom).
That suggests the question of gas taxes won't go away anytime soon. Yet if Europeans are looking for a silver lining to the current fuel crisis, they can always remember that they actually pay less for gas than Americans (excluding those pesky gas taxes, of course).


http://www.businessweek.com/globalbi...uth_about.html
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      06-24-2008, 01:45 PM   #32
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i dont know why but there are insane taxes on everything in europe...for instance in germany almost everything is taxed 19%...could you imagine going to the store and seeing 19% on your reciept compaired to our 8.5% to well i dont know everyones tax rates in the country but i know it isnt 19%
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      06-24-2008, 02:30 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by jbenington86 View Post
i dont know why but there are insane taxes on everything in europe...for instance in germany almost everything is taxed 19%...could you imagine going to the store and seeing 19% on your reciept compaired to our 8.5% to well i dont know everyones tax rates in the country but i know it isnt 19%



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      06-24-2008, 02:50 PM   #34
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More oil information you say?

Loved this post... it is pretty much bang on the money. It is an excellent article explaining the two factors that come into play in the pricing of oil. The raw commodity and currency affects of the USD.

I'd also like to add tidbit regarding the myth that oil prices are the same everywhere... I know that here in North America we see on the news a standard price quoted as $XXX/barrel of West Texas Crude. Most people would be shocked to know that most oil bought and sold in North America is not West Texas Crude... That is to say that there is a difference in quality (API, which is the American Petroleum Institute's measure of crude oil specific gravity)... Whooo dude!! Probably lost a few people there. Basically it is the quality of the crude.. Here are a few examples of crudes that I trade on a daily basis (in between posts at 1addicts.com

1. light - the good stuff, commonly referred to as WTI (west texas intermediate), approximately $130/bbl

2. medium - okay.. but you take a slight price hit because the molecules are hard to break up (aka crack) at the refinery. About $108/bbl

3. heavy - crap, but i guess we'll buy it from you... this is heavy thick tar oil (think paving oil) that you have to send to an upgrader before the refinery, therefore you take a major hit on price. $97/bbl

4. bitchumen - We have a ton of this stuff up here in Canada, which is also known as tar sands. It is pretty much what you think it is.. oil soaked sand. You have to mine the stuff with massive equipment (4 story high trucks... very cool) first. In order to get the oil out you have to pump a crap load of steam into it so that the oil will bubble up to the surface and then you can put it into a pipeline. You can usually count on spending about $60/bbl to get to a WTI equivalent barrel of oil equivalent.

5. liquid gold (Edmonton Par in Canada), this is the trade name that we use here in my shop for oil with an API of 40-45. The Saudi's and Russians have this kind of oil. This stuff gets premium priced because you can pretty much put it straight into your gas tank. This type of oil usually trades at a 10-15 premium cet. par.


Now, let me plant another idea in your heads, say you owned a refinery in Baton Rouge, Lousianna would you rather buy oil located in the east Texas pipeline (Exxon Mobile) or the Lousianna Pipeline (BP North America)? The point of this is that oil prices are extremely local as travel costs & time also factor into crude oil prices. Basically, I purchase oil from pipeline companies to sell to refinery's and believe me that I am always on the hunt for deals (arbitrage) that pipelines offer when they have excess capacity. I'll save the details on this, as I'm sure most people don't care.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon26pdx View Post
You can partially blame the current crew in the White House for that. Bush is an oil man...he even gave them huge tax breaks for christsakes. That sort of crap doesn't help anyone except the handful at the top. (That's not what the republicans will tell you though, I guess it's just easier to deny reality from their view in the ivory towers.)
This comment, is only half true. I am affraid that it is a bit ignorant due to the fact that oil companies are taking advantage of exploration tax credits (not tax breaks). The only way they get these breaks is buy spending money to look for natural resources. Oil companies are not the only ones taking advantage of these credits... all mining companies, logging and even rock quary's take advantage of these credits. The government is providing incentives for the companies to look for natural resources, which is the only way to get it out of the ground in the first place. This is a good thing people!

OK, seriously... that was a long post... thanks for reading... I have to go and "speculate" (err... trade) oil futures now...
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      06-24-2008, 04:05 PM   #35
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I've seen this thread floating around for several days now and have avoided it. I thought to myself, "$2.00/gal is never going to happen. What a moronic thread. I'm not even going to bother looking at it."

Well, since I've read about everything else, and am quite bored just now, I finally clicked on this thread to kill a little time.

I must admit, I was wrong! Due to the wealth of information provided, this has been a very interesting read.

Thanks for the mini education on gas pricing and oil production.:respekt:

-robert
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      06-24-2008, 04:29 PM   #36
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2.99 if you punks didn't buy a 1 and bought a jeep

Choose or lose :headbang:
Just read about this one. The $2.99 / gal for three years is a trick, it works out to about $1500 in savings with the limitations they impose (the dreaded fine print), which is mutually exclusive to a 3K discount or 0 percent finance! Those thieving bastages!
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      06-24-2008, 06:20 PM   #37
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10.25% Chicago, IL
Way to go Democrat Mayor Daley...

Way to go Democrat Cook County Board Chairman Stroger...

Way to go Democrat State Congressional veto-proof majorities in the House and Senate...

Way to go Democrat Governor Rod R. Blagojevich...though this guys political days may be numbered

Yeh I know us Republicans have problems too, but Chicago is a mess and it's been in the Dems hands forever, and the rest screwed up the State pretty quick too.

Illinois has such potential it's really a shame. We have everything here for a good economy. Technology, transportation, agriculture, 3rd largest city, gambling!!!, skilled workers, but they keep f-ing up at the top levels of government, again, it's really a shame.

Oh yeh, gas prices!

Great, educational posts guys, well done. I was glad to see hardly any knee-jerk "blame-Bush" posts. It was refreshing...
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      06-24-2008, 07:38 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by JB135i View Post
Way to go Democrat Mayor Daley...

Way to go Democrat Cook County Board Chairman Stroger...

Way to go Democrat State Congressional veto-proof majorities in the House and Senate...

Way to go Democrat Governor Rod R. Blagojevich...though this guys political days may be numbered

Yeh I know us Republicans have problems too, but Chicago is a mess and it's been in the Dems hands forever, and the rest screwed up the State pretty quick too.

Illinois has such potential it's really a shame. We have everything here for a good economy. Technology, transportation, agriculture, 3rd largest city, gambling!!!, skilled workers, but they keep f-ing up at the top levels of government, again, it's really a shame.

Oh yeh, gas prices!

Great, educational posts guys, well done. I was glad to see hardly any knee-jerk "blame-Bush" posts. It was refreshing...
CROOK COUNTY

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      06-25-2008, 07:27 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JB135i View Post
Great, educational posts guys, well done. I was glad to see hardly any knee-jerk "blame-Bush" posts. It was refreshing...
hahaha kinda funny you say that I was watching the news and lou dobs blamed the salmanela outbreak on bush.

sorry for the thread jack
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      06-25-2008, 08:02 AM   #40
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Actually we want high gas prices!!!

People will car pool more.
People will take mass transportatoin more.
Alternate fuel will get more R&D.
Those of us who can, invest in oil companies and make even more $$$$.
Less cars on the road.
People will walk and bicycle more, and be more healthy.
Less polution.


If prices go sky high, that means the roads will be bare and we can drive and have fun. Busy traffic is no fun for driving 1's.

EspressoBoy & Yoda

PS
Purgatory, and a few others, thanks for the great insight. Subsidies are driving the price way up. Poor people used to walk and bicycle, now they are driving. The world is crouded, and there is only so much of the good stuff to go around. Everyone wants to be rich like us in North America!
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      06-25-2008, 08:41 AM   #41
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2.00$ a liter is what I will see before the equivalent of 2$ a gallon. I pay about 1.62$ a liter for 94 octane
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      06-25-2008, 09:12 AM   #42
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Alternatives.

Quote:
Originally Posted by espressoboy View Post
Actually we want high gas prices!!!

People will car pool more.
People will take mass transportatoin more.
Alternate fuel will get more R&D.
Those of us who can, invest in oil companies and make even more $$$$.
Less cars on the road.
People will walk and bicycle more, and be more healthy.
Less polution.


If prices go sky high, that means the roads will be bare and we can drive and have fun. Busy traffic is no fun for driving 1's.

EspressoBoy & Yoda

PS
Purgatory, and a few others, thanks for the great insight. Subsidies are driving the price way up. Poor people used to walk and bicycle, now they are driving. The world is crouded, and there is only so much of the good stuff to go around. Everyone wants to be rich like us in North America!
Well, that is the other side of the argument... in my personal opinion (here's where the politics come in...), I am personally in favour (yes, I used the correct spelling with a 'u') of exploration based tax credits as they serve to increase the supply side economics. However, get ready for this... I am also personally in favour of an increased gas tax to pay for this... Thus, a market economy would theoretically find alternatives... Can you tell that this is out of my relm of expertise and is more opinion based.

I read an article this morning written by the former CEO of Exxon Mobile which made a rather obvious point that I hadn't thought about until I read it. He stated that [the United States] should not try to determine which energy alternative is better (wind, solar, nuclear etc.), but rather invest in ALL of them. The [US] and the rest of the world is drastically under supplied when it comes to producing energy, and he is absolutely convinced that they need as much as they can get.

Anyways, I thought it was interesting... Cherio!
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      06-25-2008, 10:02 AM   #43
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I totally agree with him, we should invest in all of them. The big question is how much and which company will be the ones who are around for the long haul. Picking the right ones in the right order will make you even more rich! I invested in tar sands from the beginning and I am very happy now!!! Black Rock thank you!

We should also conserve and have different ways of moving around. I also think we should pay as we go.
Those of us who use roads, should pay. Those of us who don't, should not pay.

But in reality, that will never fly. I would love to map out my drive, and know that there are only a limited amount of other cars using the road at that time. Maybe 135i can fly? (joking about 135i flying from Germany to USA)

EspressoBoy & Yoda
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      06-25-2008, 10:23 AM   #44
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The fun thing is invest up front in all the alternatives - just like was done in the early days of auto-mo-bubbles - the least attractive (performance, maintenance, expense) will fall by the wayside.

As always, some people will bemoan the passing of 'solution X', but then there's still guys claiming we screwed up when we abandoned steam engines in cars. ; -)
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