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      01-11-2009, 07:49 PM   #23
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There's no doubt it slow. It takes some getting used to to go from a fast car to a Prius on a regular basis for sure. At the same time, the VW TDIs have about the same 0-60 times, so there's not much to be gained there. I've never seen the numbers for a 123d. Any idea what it does it in?
0-60 in 7.0 (7.1 auto) for the 123d, that is the same as a 128 for the auto IIRC.

I am not trying to bash the honda, the wife looked at it and said no so it was crossed off of our long list of vehicle possibilities. We looked at the prius, (actually went in to take a peek at a Matrix but that car was a no go) it was roomy and functional but I don't think it would work for us.

I would gladly pay the extra 10k for a 123d hatch, but that is a personal thing.

As to the aerodynamic thing, the civic has a hybrid and CR actually recomended it over the prius due to driving dynamics I believe.
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      01-11-2009, 07:57 PM   #24
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Yea Ill take a 123d any day before looking at the Honda, however I do like the way the Volt looks even tho more than the Honda. How much is this Honda even supposed to costs? My TDI was an 06 loaded for $33k and both me and a friend got the mpg I was saying. But idk I think a turbo diesel engine is a better investment than a hybrid..
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      01-11-2009, 08:02 PM   #25
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How much is this Honda even supposed to costs? My TDI was an 06 loaded for $33k and both me and a friend got the mpg I was saying...

Honda has been quoted as saying the target base price was $19k.
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      01-11-2009, 08:19 PM   #26
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For $19k its a good amt for the amt of gas u save, I wonder whats gona be the breaker between the Honda and the Prius thats based at $22k...
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      01-11-2009, 08:28 PM   #27
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Oh n I just saw that the 3rd Gen. Prius is getting unvealed in 13 hrs... whats changed for this one?
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      01-11-2009, 08:31 PM   #28
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For $19k its a good amt for the amt of gas u save, I wonder whats gona be the breaker between the Honda and the Prius thats based at $22k...
I guess we'll see what Toyota has up its sleeve when it unveils the third-generation Prius tomorrow morning.
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      01-11-2009, 08:40 PM   #29
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It would be nice to see Honda and Toyota undercutting each other on hybrids and send the price below $20K.

That might finally push this technology mainstream.

Of course it might also be another nail in Detroit's coffin.
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      01-11-2009, 09:42 PM   #30
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"AUTOBLOG manages 63mpg"

"EDMUNDS manages 51.1mpg"

MOTIVE MAG:

"The Prius is now rated by the EPA at a combined 46 mpg, whereas the EPA says this Insight will only deliver 40 mpg in the city and 43 on the highway.

So how come I got 56 mpg? Two words: Eco Assist. This suite of technologies and interfaces helps the operator maintain a fuel-efficient driving style. But it's more video game than nanny. There are even prizes at the end.

The only reminder was the multi-function display. Even after an hour's thrashing, I was still getting 39 mpg.
So this is a car that delivers two kinds of performance, and can be driven two totally different ways. Both, however, deliver unexpectedly great mileage. It's clear from my experience that the EPA testers weren't paying too much attention to Eco Assist. "

HYBRIDS ARENT SUPPOSE TO perform this well under hard acceleration and reckless driving. Thats what we've all been told.

FOR 18K, this car will be bitchin. The Prius will no doubt be more sophisticated/faster/efficient but come on. 18k!
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      01-11-2009, 09:47 PM   #31
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Read some of the test drive reports and you may find yourself impressed.

http://blogs.motortrend.com/6436473/...ght/index.html

The test drivers were getting an average of 65 MPG.

The Motor Trend guy decided to take another test run and drive like a bandit:

With Kanye wailing, "Oh, how could you be sooo heartless..." and the A/C set to a breezy 72 degrees, I pass people at nearly every opportunity, cruise above the posted speed limit, but come to full stops at every light and stop sign. Incline, decline, I don't care: I have the pedal down and the speedo is almost always glowing cool blue. It may be bad, but it feels sooo good. Eco Guide looks like digital matchstick collection-not a single leaf left as I pull across the finish line. Pitiful. But when I look at my average, I find the damage to be 42.1 mpg. Not bad-about a tick under EPA highway, but 2.1 mpg better than the EPA city. Plus, I'm sweat-free and relaxed.
Doing EVERYTHING wrong he still beat the EPA city rating.
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      01-11-2009, 09:58 PM   #32
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We had two TDI's in my old office (a Jetta and a Passat) and neither one of them averaged 55MPG. The Jetta would get about 40MPG in mixed driving, with a little effort. It would move up to about 44MPG on the highway. We also had a Prius. Lifetime average (with around 30k on the clock) on it was 48MPG. Factor in the extra cost of diesel and the Prius makes more sense. It's also considerably larger inside than the Jetta, and has more useful cargo capacity with the seats folded.

And a Jetta looks sexy?
Eh, if I had some strange tree hugging epiphany, I would go with the Jetta over the Prius anyday. Number one, I don't like the "image" and "holier than thou, I'm saving the world and you're ruining it" feeling I get from the Prius and their drivers. Second, the new TDI has 236 lb/ft of torque for some spirited driving when needed. True, diesel is more expensive but I'd be willing to sacrifice a few bucks per fillup for German engineering and legitimate power.
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      01-11-2009, 10:25 PM   #33
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Eh, if I had some strange tree hugging epiphany, I would go with the Jetta over the Prius anyday. Number one, I don't like the "image" and "holier than thou, I'm saving the world and you're ruining it" feeling I get from the Prius and their drivers. Second, the new TDI has 236 lb/ft of torque for some spirited driving when needed. True, diesel is more expensive but I'd be willing to sacrifice a few bucks per fillup for German engineering and legitimate power.
If your'e tree hugging, the Prius is the only way to go. It's much cleaner than even a clean diesel.

The gearing is so high the TDI's are still slow as hell. Torque doesn't make a car fast. HP does. But even the Prius has more combined torque (over 350ft-lbs) than the diesel anway. In a drag race the MkIV won't even put a car lenth on the Prius. You aren't doing anything close to what I'd consider "spirited driving" in either of these cars. As far as German engineering goes, in an economy car I'll take Japanese engineering any day of the week over a VW. My MkIV GTI was the most unreliable vehicle I've ever owned, and that was before it even hit the 50k mile mark.

The Prius has never seen the dealership.
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      01-11-2009, 10:38 PM   #34
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GM and Ford are pulling out all the stops. I dont think Toyota and Honda will make it easy. Its good because everybody wins.
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      01-11-2009, 11:03 PM   #35
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The gearing is so high the TDI's are still slow as hell. Torque doesn't make a car fast. HP does. But even the Prius has more combined torque (over 350ft-lbs) than the diesel anway. In a drag race the MkIV won't even put a car lenth on the Prius. You aren't doing anything close to what I'd consider "spirited driving" in either of these cars.
There's more to spirited driving than going fast in a straight line, (especially within American speed limits,) and the MkV Jetta TDI promises to be far more enjoyable in the corners than the Prius. (And there's certainly more of an aftermarket available for its suspension.)

As for reliability, I agree. VW is starting to show improvement over the atrocious work it put forth at the beginning of the decade, but the horror stories alone were enough to put me off of them. We'll see how they look again in another year or two.
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      01-11-2009, 11:42 PM   #36
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There's more to spirited driving than going fast in a straight line, (especially within American speed limits,) and the MkV Jetta TDI promises to be far more enjoyable in the corners than the Prius. (And there's certainly more of an aftermarket available for its suspension.)
.
You're right about that, I just think that going at any of these cars with sporting intentions is a waste of time.

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As for reliability, I agree. VW is starting to show improvement over the atrocious work it put forth at the beginning of the decade, but the horror stories alone were enough to put me off of them. We'll see how they look again in another year or two.
I agree they do seem to be improving.
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      01-12-2009, 03:15 AM   #37
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A prius can get pretty pricy as my TDI cost 33k and my friends Prius cost 25+... and if I had my VW still I could prove to you that you would only spend 5-10k more just to buy the car but YOU SAVE more than you would with any hybrid and since in my VW would save sooooooooo much fuel Id only be visiting the gas station once a month rarely twice so idk how the price of diesel would cost more yrly. If you dont believe me you can go to the TDI forums im sure youll see people saving a lot more than any Hybrid or Regular Car. Id be willing to risk spending 5-10k more just for the TDI or 123d that has better looks, power and accessories and saves more gas than any other hbrid or regular car imho.
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      01-12-2009, 06:37 AM   #38
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1. You don't buy a compact hybrid for looks. People have to distinguish utilitarian automobiles from style statements. You buy a Ferrari to get looks and thrills. You buy a Prius to get from A to B as cheap as possible.
You may not be buying it for looks but if there were two that had the same stats/benefits why would you NOT buy the better looking one? That argument holds no water...:iono:
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      01-12-2009, 07:56 AM   #39
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1. You don't buy a compact hybrid for looks. People have to distinguish utilitarian automobiles from style statements. You buy a Ferrari to get looks and thrills. You buy a Prius to get from A to B as cheap as possible.

2. The diesel offerings from both VW and BMW are $5K-10K more than Japanese hybrids. Factor in the higher price of diesel fuel and you're in the hole bigtime. If your goal is to save money (Why else would you even be considering these cars unless you're an ultra-rich celebrity trying to make a social statement?) then why would you want to spend $5K-10K more initially and several K more a year on fuel?
For the same reason that I would consider purchasing a 135i over a 128i: driving enjoyment.

There are a lot of people who, all else being equal, would prefer to spend less on fuel, period. It isn't an apples-to-apples comparison to take a 123d and compare it to a Prius any more than you should compare a 335d to a Toyota Camry. They aren't in the same market segment. The Prius is a pure driving appliance to maximize fuel economy. The 123d promises a fun driving experience with darn good fuel economy numbers as well. This is important to me, as I buy vehicles and keep them for years, and something tells me that this Indian Summer of gas prices we're enjoying right now is not going to last very long at all.

And I hardly think that being in the market for a $25k - $35k MSRP vehicle puts one in the category of "ultra-rich celebrity".
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      01-12-2009, 11:40 AM   #40
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For the same reason that I would consider purchasing a 135i over a 128i: driving enjoyment.

There are a lot of people who, all else being equal, would prefer to spend less on fuel, period. It isn't an apples-to-apples comparison to take a 123d and compare it to a Prius any more than you should compare a 335d to a Toyota Camry. They aren't in the same market segment. The Prius is a pure driving appliance to maximize fuel economy. The 123d promises a fun driving experience with darn good fuel economy numbers as well. This is important to me, as I buy vehicles and keep them for years, and something tells me that this Indian Summer of gas prices we're enjoying right now is not going to last very long at all.

And I hardly think that being in the market for a $25k - $35k MSRP vehicle puts one in the category of "ultra-rich celebrity".
The extra money required for the Prius hardly pays for the savings in fuel costs.

There are probably more Prius's sold in California than anywhere else in the US, and it's not because we're tree-huggers or trying to save money.

In order to encourage people to drive hybrids California law gives hybrids cart-blanch in the car-pool lanes.
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      01-12-2009, 12:24 PM   #41
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1. You don't buy a compact hybrid for looks. People have to distinguish utilitarian automobiles from style statements. You buy a Ferrari to get looks and thrills. You buy a Prius to get from A to B as cheap as possible.

2. The diesel offerings from both VW and BMW are $5K-10K more than Japanese hybrids. Factor in the higher price of diesel fuel and you're in the hole bigtime. If your goal is to save money (Why else would you even be considering these cars unless you're an ultra-rich celebrity trying to make a social statement?) then why would you want to spend $5K-10K more initially and several K more a year on fuel?

Very true. I dont see what would be wrong with buying a 19k car that can potentially get 60mpg. Diesel Fuel seems to always be too damn expensive. :-(

The world awaits:


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      01-12-2009, 01:25 PM   #42
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You have to take into consideration the standard of living for each person that is in the market for that type of car. If we are capable of affording a bimmer, then we would be more inclined to be in the market for a 123d versus a more 'frugal' Prius/Insight.....
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      01-12-2009, 04:16 PM   #43
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If you want efficiency, get the new Prius.

If you want some fun with your effeciency, get the new Honda Insight.

If you want luxury with your effeciency, get the new Lexus HS250h.

Simple as that. All three options will run you less than a 123d and will cost you much less in the long run. If you demand German engineering and driving exhilaration then bite the bullet and get the 135i. No point compromising when you're getting worst of both worlds: A car that's less fun than the 135 and much costlier than the Japanese hybrid offerings.
I AGREE 100% You've got a way with words my friend. Wait until hybrids get engineered to be more hardcore while efficient. The diesel offerings will start to look pale in comparison.
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      01-12-2009, 05:16 PM   #44
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Just for the record everyone.. Markoni is a Japanese car lover... Hes a type of guy that says "stop trying to compare cars that arent even in the same league pricewise" but will argue all day saying an S2k is better than a 135i.. I think im done arguing in this thread bc threads usually get closed where Markoni is but its obvious Markoni hasnt done his research on TDI's compared to Hybrids as this topic is argued A LOT in todays market... theres MANY videos and sites and threads comparing the 2 and TDI's have been on top of Hybrids.. you pay more upfront for a TDI but you DO SAVE more money on fuel in a TDI in the long run than in a Hybrid, its been proven many times. Japanese car makers do make good cars as I love Nissan/Infinity and Toyota/Lexus but these Hybrids have yet to impress me when a TDI is better in every which way.. Im very open minded but Ive had proof that a TDI is a better investment than a Hybrid as many others have proof of it. The End.
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