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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Bavarian Technic Diagnostic Tool



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      02-11-2009, 04:16 PM   #89
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Wait, so the thought is that this system will be able to wipe the diagnostic visibility code? Nice!
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      02-11-2009, 04:19 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmurray14 View Post
Wait, so the thought is that this system will be able to wipe the diagnostic visibility code? Nice!
SWEET...if someone in the San Francisco Bay Area can get one, I think people would be willing to pay $20/visit....could be a little side biz....
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      02-11-2009, 04:20 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joec500 View Post
SWEET...if someone in the San Francisco Bay Area can get one, I think people would be willing to pay $20/visit....could be a little side biz....
Yeah...assuming that 2D25 code is really the only one they look for.
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      02-11-2009, 04:21 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joec500 View Post
SWEET...if someone in the San Francisco Bay Area can get one, I think people would be willing to pay $20/visit....could be a little side biz....
I wouldn't worry about that

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      02-11-2009, 04:33 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
I wouldn't worry about that

Shiv
To your knowledge is the 2D25 code the only manipulation code the ECU throws on tune detection?
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      02-11-2009, 04:39 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmurray14 View Post
To your knowledge is the 2D25 code the only manipulation code the ECU throws on tune detection?
At this time, yes. But I can bet you that they are going to start looking at adaptive timing values next. This will effectively protect them from overly aggressive tunes (with no CPS offsetting... oops) and from cases where low grade fuel is being used. It's just to easy to implement this since it's already monitored as an adaptive value. First fuel monitoring which they have already implemented. And then ignition monitoring which they could already be doing now. But maybe not with a hidden code... just yet.

Shiv
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      02-11-2009, 04:49 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
At this time, yes. But I can bet you that they are going to start looking at adaptive timing values next. This will effectively protect them from overly aggressive tunes (with no CPS offsetting... oops) and from cases where low grade fuel is being used. It's just to easy to implement this since it's already monitored as an adaptive value. First fuel monitoring which they have already implemented. And then ignition monitoring which they could already be doing now. But maybe not with a hidden code... just yet.

Shiv
if i am reading this correct, basically it's another way to detect a tune?

Last edited by battlehawk1025; 02-11-2009 at 05:22 PM.
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      02-11-2009, 05:17 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
At this time, yes. But I can bet you that they are going to start looking at adaptive timing values next. This will effectively protect them from overly aggressive tunes (with no CPS offsetting... oops) and from cases where low grade fuel is being used. It's just to easy to implement this since it's already monitored as an adaptive value. First fuel monitoring which they have already implemented. And then ignition monitoring which they could already be doing now. But maybe not with a hidden code... just yet.

Shiv
Gotcha. If I'm taking the hint - the procede wouldn't be affected by that type of detection, because you're adjusting timing proactively?
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      02-11-2009, 05:26 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
At this time, yes. But I can bet you that they are going to start looking at adaptive timing values next. This will effectively protect them from overly aggressive tunes (with no CPS offsetting... oops) and from cases where low grade fuel is being used. It's just to easy to implement this since it's already monitored as an adaptive value. First fuel monitoring which they have already implemented. And then ignition monitoring which they could already be doing now. But maybe not with a hidden code... just yet.

Shiv
Since we're talking about possible tune detection now, and CPS offsetting somehow slipped into the thread (I am shocked LOL).

What about this scenario?

BMW matching up the crank position sensor with the cam position sensors to spot piggybacks altering crank position?

Mike
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      02-11-2009, 05:30 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubbles View Post
It looks like this software only supports MSD80 right now. I'm waiting to hear back from the developer regarding MSD81 support.
Thanks Bubbles. It is odd how that faq quote someone posted referred to the manipulation code as being set off and cleared with MSD81 - no reference to MSD80.

Oh well, wait and see time.
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      02-11-2009, 06:15 PM   #99
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Here goes this thread. Well, it was nice while it lasted.
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      02-11-2009, 06:24 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
Since we're talking about possible tune detection now, and CPS offsetting somehow slipped into the thread (I am shocked LOL).

What about this scenario?

BMW matching up the crank position sensor with the cam position sensors to spot piggybacks altering crank position?

Mike
If Terry truly understand how the DMEs compares crank/cam sensor waveforms, he wouldn't have asked you to post that. Due to the mechanical nature of the drive system AND the active nature of the VANOS system, there is too much mechanical "slop" to detect a small offset in delta. This is why the vanos actuation solenoid as to fail grossly before a vanos actual code is triggered (see various posts on this forum). We've run up to +/-15 degrees of crank timing offset and the diagnostic system didn't flinch. They cannot get it down to the +/- 5 deg needed to catch us. And if they did, it would be a vanos code, not a manipulation code.

The same cannot be said for running retard factory timing. Regardless of how Terry tries to spin it.

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      02-11-2009, 06:31 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slubu View Post
Thanks Bubbles. It is odd how that faq quote someone posted referred to the manipulation code as being set off and cleared with MSD81 - no reference to MSD80.

Oh well, wait and see time.
I think that's because tuner detection capability was introduced with MSD81.
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      02-11-2009, 06:35 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmurray14 View Post
To your knowledge is the 2D25 code the only manipulation code the ECU throws on tune detection?
I hear that is the one which will kill your warranty.

However there are other codes such as air/fuel implausibility and wastegate duty cycle exceeded codes which may get them suspicious if they don't find a mechanical reason for throwing them.

I think that's when they start digging around for physical evidence of a tune and try to call your bluff.
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      02-11-2009, 06:48 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
If Terry truly understand how the DMEs compares crank/cam sensor waveforms, he wouldn't have asked you to post that. Due to the mechanical nature of the drive system AND the active nature of the VANOS system, there is too much mechanical "slop" to detect a small offset in delta. This is why the vanos actuation solenoid as to fail grossly before a vanos actual code is triggered (see various posts on this forum). We've run up to +/-15 degrees of crank timing offset and the diagnostic system didn't flinch. They cannot get it down to the +/- 5 deg needed to catch us. And if they did, it would be a vanos code, not a manipulation code.

The same cannot be said for running retard factory timing. Regardless of how Terry tries to spin it.

Shiv
Shiv what you are saying is contrary to basic common sense. If you alter the crank position sensor, say 4 degrees, the missing tooth on the cam position sensor is going to be miscalibrated 4 degrees with relation to the missing tooth in the crank position sensor. This is extremely easy to spot looking at basic diagnostic data, like is rumored to be stored in the ECU for PUMA inspections. If you are relying on "throwing codes" as the sole means for avoiding tuner detection then it might be time to take a step back and look at the big picture.

Mike
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      02-11-2009, 06:52 PM   #104
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PLEASE KEEP YOUR PIGGY FUEDS OUT OF THIS THREAD!
I was playing around with the software and there is no current MSD 81 selection available. See screenshot.





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      02-11-2009, 07:08 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubbles View Post
[b]
I was playing around with the software and there is no current MSD 81 selection available. See screenshot.

Hmmmmm
I asked them about MSD81 and here is what they responded:

Yes our product support MSD81, they are actual the same the only difference is MSD81 has a different binary to store fault code thresholds for detecting tuner boxes. It mentions this on the wiki page. The actual control modules in the car are still identified as MSD80, MSD81 is really only used to describe the different software version, as they are the exact same physical hardware they just have a different software version number.
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      02-11-2009, 07:27 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilma View Post
Hmmmmm
I asked them about MSD81 and here is what they responded:

Yes our product support MSD81, they are actual the same the only difference is MSD81 has a different binary to store fault code thresholds for detecting tuner boxes. It mentions this on the wiki page. The actual control modules in the car are still identified as MSD80, MSD81 is really only used to describe the different software version, as they are the exact same physical hardware they just have a different software version number.
I've seen multiple times that someone has said MSD81 is MSD80 upgraded, as confirmed in the bavarian technic wiki.

Bubbles: Did you already get the cable? Your car is an MSD80 335i however, correct?
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      02-11-2009, 07:58 PM   #107
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Bubbles did you order or can you download the software for free?
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      02-11-2009, 08:03 PM   #108
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Bubbles did you order or can you download the software for free?
You can download the software free - I was looking at it last night.
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      02-11-2009, 08:17 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilma View Post
Hmmmmm
I asked them about MSD81 and here is what they responded:

Yes our product support MSD81, they are actual the same the only difference is MSD81 has a different binary to store fault code thresholds for detecting tuner boxes. It mentions this on the wiki page. The actual control modules in the car are still identified as MSD80, MSD81 is really only used to describe the different software version, as they are the exact same physical hardware they just have a different software version number.
So essentially, they are saying the MSD81 nomenclature is just a tag on a differently coded MSD80 - and for their purposes, their reference to MSD80 covers both these iterations, as the actual hardware is the same.

Did I get that right?
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      02-11-2009, 08:17 PM   #110
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Bubbles do you only have the software or do you have the whole kit ?
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