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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > PROcede Boost vs. RPM Curves



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      03-04-2009, 07:21 PM   #23
shiv@vishnu
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Originally Posted by Ramos View Post
Can you explain why the stages are showing very different boost at 4200 RPM.. Am I missing something?

I was gonna go with stage 1 but I don't like the idea of 16 PSI.. Maybe I should stick with Stage 0

Can the user select the stage they want to run, or is that hard coded from Vishnu?
The actual RPM point at which more boost is added (as you go up in stages) is 5000rpm. But since the PROcede interpolate between poings, you will see boost target start to deviate by 4500rpm. Stg0 should provide 12-13psi of boost. Stg 1 13-14psi. Maybe +/- 0.5PSI with temp extremes. You wont hit 16psi with any Stg set to default settings. Datalog boost can be a little misleading because you will see a spike when the throttle closes (as it often does right around 4000rpm). You won't see that much boost in the manifold measured by a boost gauge.

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      03-04-2009, 07:53 PM   #24
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Just to clarify, the max boost on the Stage 1 run with default UT=90 was just over 15 psi according to my peak hold boost gauge.
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      03-04-2009, 07:54 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
Datalog boost can be a little misleading because you will see a spike when the throttle closes (as it often does right around 4000rpm). You won't see that much boost in the manifold measured by a boost gauge.

Shiv
+1

I have been watching my boost gauge since installing the Procede recently and do not see any spikes from the intake manifold side where my vacuum line attaches.

Yet when I run the Procede datalog, the spikes do show up on the other side of the throttle plate (pre-intake manifold).

I also run stage 1 UT=90% and in this cold weather ( 10-20 F) see boost peaks around 14 psi.
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      03-04-2009, 08:17 PM   #26
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That clarifies it .. thanks Shiv and you guys
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      03-04-2009, 09:14 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usc335 View Post
Just to clarify, the max boost on the Stage 1 run with default UT=90 was just over 15 psi according to my peak hold boost gauge.
Accuracy also depends on gauge calibration.
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      03-04-2009, 11:51 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
I don't know what modern turbo engines you've seen lately. But they don't have flat boost curves. Neither does the stock n54. Yet somehow the torque curve looks smooth. In fancy talk, that's an example of employing a boost profile that complements the engines VE (fancy talk for pumping efficiency.). Good day.

Shiv
They don't have completely flat curves because that's difficult to accomplish. It is desired. The n54 can do it because the wastegates are vacuum controlled. The absolute last thing you want to do is spike a high boost pressure at low RPM. At low engine speeds the cylinder pressure is huge and the strain on the connecting rods is intense. High boost pressure and the accompanying fuel result in high heat that is difficult to dissipate effectively at lower rpm. Any tuner on the planet would work to eliminate a 3+ psi spike. I say 3+ because you drop to 13 from 16. I'm presuming 13 was your target. I actually can't tell from the graph. So, what boost pressure were you targeting with that map? It's all over the place.
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      03-04-2009, 11:53 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vase330 View Post
Accuracy also depends on gauge calibration.
True, but my gauge is a brand new HKS DB Meter RS Turbo Boost Gauge (it's electronic but looks like a mechanical one). It should be accurate... For the record, it reads in Bar, so I have to convert it to psi -- not that it really matters.
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      03-05-2009, 01:13 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dadasracecar View Post
They don't have completely flat curves because that's difficult to accomplish. It is desired. The n54 can do it because the wastegates are vacuum controlled. The absolute last thing you want to do is spike a high boost pressure at low RPM. At low engine speeds the cylinder pressure is huge and the strain on the connecting rods is intense. High boost pressure and the accompanying fuel result in high heat that is difficult to dissipate effectively at lower rpm. Any tuner on the planet would work to eliminate a 3+ psi spike. I say 3+ because you drop to 13 from 16. I'm presuming 13 was your target. I actually can't tell from the graph. So, what boost pressure were you targeting with that map? It's all over the place.
It's very easy to achieve flat boost curve. That's what closed loop/PID systems are good for. We have one employed. Two actually. But we don't either it to stabilize boost pressure. Been there, done that. And it's working okay for us I think.

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      03-05-2009, 01:15 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usc335 View Post
Just to clarify, the max boost on the Stage 1 run with default UT=90 was just over 15 psi according to my peak hold boost gauge.
Peak readings can be a bit misleading since they may only happen for a fraction of a second. So briefly that it wouldn't even register on a needle gauge. It's always funny to hit peak recall and see it read 1psi higher than I EVER saw while watching the gauge

I usually find that feature to be more misleading than helpful.

Shiv

Last edited by shiv@vishnu; 03-05-2009 at 01:30 AM.
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      03-05-2009, 01:20 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
Datalog boost can be a little misleading because you will see a spike when the throttle closes (as it often does right around 4000rpm).
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      03-05-2009, 01:23 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilma View Post
+1

I have been watching my boost gauge since installing the Procede recently and do not see any spikes from the intake manifold side where my vacuum line attaches.

Yet when I run the Procede datalog, the spikes do show up on the other side of the throttle plate (pre-intake manifold).

I also run stage 1 UT=90% and in this cold weather ( 10-20 F) see boost peaks around 14 psi.
Yep!
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      03-05-2009, 01:28 AM   #34
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My experience suggests the same thing. The peak recall value always makes me wonder, did I miss that? So, the explanation does make sense.
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      03-05-2009, 09:27 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
It's very easy to achieve flat boost curve. That's what closed loop/PID systems are good for. We have one employed. Two actually. But we don't either it to stabilize boost pressure. Been there, done that. And it's working okay for us I think.

shiv
Wait, so you're saying you spike to 16 psi then drop to 13 and come back to 15 intentionally?
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      03-05-2009, 10:22 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
The actual RPM point at which more boost is added (as you go up in stages) is 5000rpm. But since the PROcede interpolate between poings, you will see boost target start to deviate by 4500rpm. Stg0 should provide 12-13psi of boost. Stg 1 13-14psi. Maybe +/- 0.5PSI with temp extremes. You wont hit 16psi with any Stg set to default settings. Datalog boost can be a little misleading because you will see a spike when the throttle closes (as it often does right around 4000rpm). You won't see that much boost in the manifold measured by a boost gauge.

Shiv
i thought the latest "torque targeting" maps avoid throttle closure?
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      03-05-2009, 12:53 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by mwahlert View Post
i thought the latest "torque targeting" maps avoid throttle closure?
Torque Targeting logic won't eliminate throttle closure. It will just greatly reduce its frequency and amplitude. But expect to see some if you are moving around your User Torque or swapping maps. The factory boost control system needs some time to adapt to the new boost targets. Without adaption, you'll see random bits of minor overshoot/throttle closure which will work work itself out with more driving.

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Originally Posted by dadasracecar View Post
Wait, so you're saying you spike to 16 psi then drop to 13 and come back to 15 intentionally?
Boost pressure in the manifold (where boost is actually measured with a boost gauge) doesn't spike to 16psi. But yes, we induce a ~2psi boost drop at ~4200rpm to flatten out the torque curve. You'd see this on just about every somewhat recent datalog posted on this forum. I'm not sure why you think this is suspicious.

Shiv
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      03-05-2009, 01:03 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
Torque Targeting logic won't eliminate throttle closure. It will just greatly reduce its frequency and amplitude. But expect to see some if you are moving around your User Torque or swapping maps. The factory boost control system needs some time to adapt to the new boost targets. Without adaption, you'll see random bits of minor overshoot/throttle closure which will work work itself out with more driving.



Boost pressure in the manifold (where boost is actually measured with a boost gauge) doesn't spike to 16psi. But yes, we induce a ~2psi boost drop at ~4200rpm to flatten out the torque curve. You'd see this on just about every somewhat recent datalog posted on this forum. I'm not sure why you think this is suspicious.

Shiv
So from this you are spiking - for lack of a better term - the boost but then dropping it back to "flatten" or reduce torque? Why would you want to reduce your torque?

You've said you had full control of the wastegates. Why are you depending on the factory boost control system needing to adapt to anything?

It's suspicious to me for the because the boost datalog curve looks like extremely similar to factory boost curves and indicates that rather than full control of the wastegates, as you have claimed, you are actually just scaling the MAP sensor.
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      03-05-2009, 01:07 PM   #39
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He just said the boost doesn't actually spike, when measured with an actual boost gauge. The procede software reads the boost from a different place and sees spikes the engine doesn't see... this has been talked to death already.

The reduction in boost is to make power delivery as smooth as possible... as can be seen on the dyno and felt on the road.

It's only suspicious to you because you clearly have an agenda pushing the cp-e product

Quote:
Originally Posted by dadasracecar View Post
So from this you are spiking - for lack of a better term - the boost but then dropping it back to "flatten" or reduce torque? Why would you want to reduce your torque?

You've said you had full control of the wastegates. Why are you depending on the factory boost control system needing to adapt to anything?

It's suspicious to me for the because the boost datalog curve looks like extremely similar to factory boost curves and indicates that rather than full control of the wastegates, as you have claimed, you are actually just scaling the MAP sensor.
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      03-05-2009, 01:17 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by dadasracecar View Post
So from this you are spiking - for lack of a better term - the boost but then dropping it back to "flatten" or reduce torque? Why would you want to reduce your torque?

You've said you had full control of the wastegates. Why are you depending on the factory boost control system needing to adapt to anything?
We have full control of the wastegates. But instead of feeding a dummy MAP sensor signal into the DME to keep it ignorantly blissful (like I suspect the CPE system is doing), we are actually feeding the rescaled factory MAP signal to the DME so it can stay involved in the entire system. There are reasons for this. If you don't think that is the case, that's okay with me

Quote:
It's suspicious to me for the because the boost datalog curve looks like extremely similar to factory boost curves and indicates that rather than full control of the wastegates, as you have claimed, you are actually just scaling the MAP sensor.
As mentioned above, we are doing both. Next time, you might want to take the time and effort to understand things first before crying "foul".

Shiv
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      03-05-2009, 01:20 PM   #41
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Wait, so you're saying you spike to 16 psi then drop to 13 and come back to 15 intentionally?
sorry noob question.
what's the definition of a troll?
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      03-05-2009, 01:22 PM   #42
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Of course but he has an agenda as well and that bullshit about the "natural pumping efficiency of the engine" was a clear attempt to deflect and rationalize what looks like a lack of any control of boost.
Trolls are bad enough. Trolls that have absolutely no understanding about the basic fundamentals of engine theory are in a class by themselves.

Note to troll: Just because you don't understand something, doesn't mean it isn't true. It just means that you're not so sharp on the subject.

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      03-05-2009, 01:22 PM   #43
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sorry noob question.
what's the definition of a troll?
Probably to you anyone unwilling to drink the koolaid.
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      03-05-2009, 03:48 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
Trolls are bad enough. Trolls that have absolutely no understanding about the basic fundamentals of engine theory are in a class by themselves.

Note to troll: Just because you don't understand something, doesn't mean it isn't true. It just means that you're not so sharp on the subject.

shiv
So I question your boost control - for lack of a better term - logic and now I have "absolutely no understanding about the basic fundamentals of engine theory." That's a little out of left field wouldn't you say? Especially considering you haven't really answered any questions with anything but complete BS, e.g. "natural pumping efficiency of the engine."
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