[hl0m4n]

i just thought it would be nice to have a new clean thread that shows what the deal is on the progman reflash and actuator fix. one place to have all the info. this will not only help me but many others as well. bmw unite

1. official tsb link: http://www.bmwtis.com/tsb/bulletins/...p/B111307g.htm
2. latest progman version:
3. fix on wastegate actuator:

i remember reading somewhere newer cars just need the progman fix to fix the actuator (metallic clicking) while older cars need new hardware. i have an 11/06 production car.

[lablueguitar]

great idea

[hl0m4n]

so based on the tsb above and my car 11/06 production, i am eligable for the waste gate actuator control rod reprogram (May 06-Sept 07) and turbo charge lag progman update (June 06-Sept 07) correct?

since the two fixes are both programming/software, won't the dealer do them together?

so after the control rod reprogram i still have noise, then i am eligable for both turbo charger wastegate actuator replacements?

[ToadHollow]

Just a thought ......
you may want to post the link within this thread: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=147781

More eyes will see it that have been dealing with these issues and hopefully will post what info they have regarding their "fixes".

Great idea in getting this one started ....... especially with the newbies.

[meyergru]

New info:

Some of what follows is outdated now. BMW seems to have opted to bring the "lag-fix" for all MSD80 cars as default to the newest software release, now current is ISTA/P 2.36.0. Apparently, the "wastegate retrofit" option has disappeared from the ISTA/P menus from v33.1 on - even for MSD80 cars that previously needed to have it selected after the update.

This makes life a whole lot easier for customers and dealers, no bells and whistles anymore... just get an update from v33.1 upwards and you'll be set, at least lag-wise!

With regard to wastegate rattle, one could believe, that since there is no rattle-fix any more they could refer affected customers to, BMW would have to fix any rattles by replacing the hardware from now on. However, this proved wrong: An update for the SIB111307 from May 2009 now reads:

Complaints received regarding a slight rattle from this area under steady acceleration in the 2,000 RPM to 4,000 RPM range are due to the rotating waste gate valve face; this is a characteristic of the mechanical waste gate. The rotating waste gate valve face is necessary to ensure proper sealing. This slight rattle noise is considered normal operation of the mechanical waste gate valve. No repair should be attempted for this type of rattling complaint.

This read until April 09:

After programming is completed, if the noise is no longer present, take no further action. If the noise is still present, replace both of the turbocharger wastegate actuators in accordance with Repair Instruction RA 11 65 580, Replacing vacuum unit (wastegate) (N54).

, BMW!



--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Initial Post:

Originally Posted by hl0m4n

i just thought it would be nice to have a new clean thread that shows what the deal is on the progman reflash and actuator fix. one place to have all the info. this will not only help me but many others as well. bmw unite

1. official tsb link: http://www.bmwtis.com/tsb/bulletins/...p/B111307g.htm
2. latest progman version:
3. fix on wastegate actuator:

i remember reading somewhere newer cars just need the progman fix to fix the actuator (metallic clicking) while older cars need new hardware. i have an 11/06 production car.

Well. It's not Progman, but ISTA. And then...


Let's begin where it all started.



The initial problem:

BMW used flawed wastegate actuator rods in N54 cars (x35i) with build dates up to 09/07. Well, actually, they said once that these have been fitted up to January 17th, 2008. Those rods elongated over time so that after a little wear, the wastegates did not close tightly any more, which gives a ticking, rattling or clanking sound at idle.

In order to avoid costly replacements, BMW brought up a "rattle-fix" in software with Progman v29.2 in 03/08. This software fix made the wastegate become open at idle. Only when you depressed throttle, the wastegates were closed and the resulting delay to build thrust could be noticed as lag.

If your car got a software update for any reason (also non-ECU-related) after 03/08, it may show this lag. There is no hidden menu or something where the software version can be displayed, BTW. An update can occur invisibly to you when you have a service visit. ED cars, for example are updated upon redelivery at the VPC weeks after initial build. Only the dealer can tell you the exact version currently installed on your car.

This "turbo lag" was denied when first reported and only after a long time of continuing pressure, BMW acklowledged that there was a problem which first lead to press statement and in January 2009, to a release of a new software called ISTA/P 2.32.1, which is referenced in SIB 111307. Now-current is at least ISTA/P 2.33, which you can see here.

From here on, everything depends on your car's build date:


Case 1: Situation of cars with post 03/08 build dates

In 03/08, there was a change in ECU/DME hardware as well - BMW now uses MSD81 hardware instead of MSD80. Some cars up to 05/08 can still have MSD80, BTW. This change was meant as a counter-measure for flash tunes. The v29.2 software release that came out along with MSD81 has some new schemes built-in to also detect piggyback tunes.

MSD81 units have different DME software versions - they have the same numbering scheme but they are different, e.g. the cryptographic keys to protect them have changed. Also, BMW says that cars having MSD81 are not affected by "turbo lag", since their software was never altered because such cars always have new wastegate rods.

Thus, the "lag fix" is not offered for cars > 03/08. According to BMW, those cars are "not affected", although some owners say otherwise. If you own such a car and feel lag, you may have one of the few post-03/08 MSD80 cars. Otherwise, you are out of luck as BMW denies lag claims for MSD81 cars.

BTW, if you happen to get v32.1 or later for another reason: Lag-wise, it won't make any difference.


Case 2: Situation of pre-09/07 cars

Such cars have MSD80 for sure and deficient wastegates. These may but don't have to develop rattles. If the cars have been updated with v29.2 to v31.x, they will most probably show turbo lag. This lag is worst with v29.2 to v30.x. From v31.x onward, the lag is less noticeable. This holds true for >= v32.x as well - thus updating the software alone is no cure for turbo lag, UNLESS you also get the "wastegate retrofit" option, aka

- Valve retrofit
- lag-fix
- turbo retrofit

This is not a term that refers to hardware replacement, but a DME software option that restores wastegate operation to the same behaviour as for pre-29.2 in order to satisfy the "most senstive BMW drivers" that are bothered by the turbo lag - but requesting it comes at a price (see below).

The option only be applied using ISTA/P-equipped diagnostic machines (in contrary to the older Progman stations). Correctly, the current versions are named like "ISTA/P 2.32.1" instead of "Progman v32.1". To get the old wastegate behaviour back, one has to get an ISTA/P 2.32.1 update or later and afterwards, using ISTA/P, the option for "wastegate control" has to be activated in the "retrofit" sub-menu of ISTA/P (read the SIB for details). This option is not offered automatically, the technician has to actually look for it. Also, the option is only available when it is applicable (that is, only for cars < 09/07).

Maybe a price to pay...

However, bear in mind, that this does not fix the flawed wastegates. To the contrary, the fix may in fact lead to the ticking noise. BMW clearly says that you risk this if you specifically request old wastegate operation. BMW thinks there is no obligation to replace ticking wastegate hardware, although there are reports that this has been done.


Case 3: Situation of cars between 09/07 and 03/08

Those cars have MSD80 ECU hardware and most probably new wastegates. They will get the lag-fixed version automatically with the next software update due or if one is specifically requested because of turbo lag (minimum ISTA/P 2.32.1 or Progman v32.1 is required). There is no need to select any option in the ISTA/P menu and reportedly, it is not even available with post-09/07 cars.


Questions?

Before you ask questions here: I doubt that there are any left which have not already been answered in the long "sticky" thread... let's keep this one short.

A few of these questions are:

Q: How can I see what software version I have? Are there any secret menus where I can see this?
A: Short of using a diagnostic tool like the Bavtech unit, you cannot. Go and ask your dealership. Anyway: Who cares? Do you have lag?

Q: What software version should I get?
A: It is not like you have a choice. Your BMW dealer will update your car to the most current version he has and he is instructed to use the most current version available. Dealers neither may nor even can "downgrade" your car. A list of versions is here, which is updated from time to time but need not be absolutely up to date.

Q: My dealership tells me that they can only update my car if they find anything wrong with it. What can I do?
A: Show them this SIB and explain to them what this sentence means: "If said "turbocharger lag" is a customer's complaint, then the vehicle's DME software can be retrofitted to the original waste gate operation." (applies only to MSD80 cars). If they won't do it, have BMW NA customer service explain it.

Q: I have more/less mileage or louder/quieter exhaust note after an update. How come?
A: Reports are inconclusive as of yet. Some owners have reported such changes, others did say it was unaltered.

Q: My car seems to have a higher top speed after the update?
A: Yes. At least for cars that had a 155mph limit, it is set a little higher from v30.x upwards.

Q: The (standard, non-active) steering feels a little lighter after the update?
A: Yes, this has been reported by some people.

Q: Shifting and acceleration of the steptronic version are smoother after the update?
A: Yes, especially in DS mode.

Q: Which type of wastegates have I got? I fall into the period 09/07 to January, 17th, 2008?
A: Have your dealer look at them. He has to measure the thickness of the rods in order to find out. There is no VIN-based database on that. However, if you have no rattles, you are not entitled to a preventive hardware replacement anyway.

Q: What type of DME have I got? My build date is between 03/08 and 05/08?
A: In most cases, you can find out by using http://www.realoem.com. However, for some cars, both MSD80 and MSD81 are shown, so you'd have to get at the ECU to find out or have the dealer check with a diagnostic unit.

Q: How does that "lag" feel, anyway? How can I reproduce it?
A: Go in 4th gear (or M4 with steptronic) at ~1500 RPM, then depress throttle halfway. If you feel a second rush of acceleration only when RPM reaches 3000 after ~0.5 seconds, you are experiencing lag, since full torque is supposed to be present from ~1400 RPM already.

[ToadHollow]

Meyergru ........ you're such a friggin' wealth of info.

[hl0m4n]

omg dude you just made everyone's life soo much easier props man .

one question for you. so if i do get the update, im doing it on my own risk with the ticking noise. and if i do get the ticking noise after the update i requested, bmw will not service the wastegate replacement on my 11/06 production car?

also is there a link for an official post/statement saying/showing bmw used flaw wastegates?

thanks again man.

[ToadHollow]

Originally Posted by hl0m4n

omg dude you just made everyone's life soo much easier props man .

one question for you. so if i do get the update, im doing it on my own risk with the ticking noise. and if i do get the ticking noise after the update i requested, bmw will not service the wastegate replacement on my 11/06 production car?

also is there a link for an official post/statement saying/showing bmw used flaw wastegates?

thanks again man.

The last line from Meyergru's post .......

Before you ask questions here: I doubt that there are any left which have not already been answered in the long "sticky" thread... let's keep this one short.

[hl0m4n]

now that i read the tsb more carefully under may 06-sept 07 (my car 11/06) step 4 clearly says:

4. After programming is completed, if the noise is no longer present, take no further action. If the noise is still present, replace both of the turbocharger wastegate actuators in accordance with Repair Instruction RA 11 65 580, Replacing vacuum unit (wastegate) (N54).

this would mean that even after i get the pre waste gate operation and in the future i suddenly get the ticking noise, i will be covered correct?

it may be obvious but i just need feeling of reinsurance

[ToadHollow]

this would mean that even after i get the pre waste gate operation and in the future i suddenly get the ticking noise, i will be covered correct?

Yes, if you have an issue after the update installation it would warrant further repair/investigation as to the cause. Ultimately, I would imagine, a retrofit.

Meyergru, please correct me if I'm wrong ....... or maybe PM h10m4n?

[hl0m4n]

Originally Posted by ToadHollow

this would mean that even after i get the pre waste gate operation and in the future i suddenly get the ticking noise, i will be covered correct?

Yes, if you have an issue after the update installation it would warrant further repair/investigation as to the cause. Ultimately, I would imagine, a retrofit.

Meyergru, please correct me if I'm wrong ....... or maybe PM h10m4n?

hey toadhollow how is the rr occ and the dealership? i ordered one too but if i get this update and have any problems i don't want the dealer to try blaming the occ and voiding warranty

[ToadHollow]

Originally Posted by hl0m4n

hey toadhollow how is the rr occ and the dealership? i ordered one too but if i get this update and have any problems i don't want the dealer to try blaming the occ and voiding warranty

Unless you have a kink in one of the return lines causing a problem with the runnability of the car (and YES, you'd DEFINITELY be able to tell), no worries.

As a matter of fact, I've never uninstalled a single mod before bringing the car to the dealer. This has been the same for multiple dealers I have used for service.

Sleep well my friend

[lablueguitar]

this sounds like a Microsoft product.. patches, hotfixes, updates.. what we need is some recalls...

[meyergru]

Originally Posted by hl0m4n

now that i read the tsb more carefully under may 06-sept 07 (my car 11/06) step 4 clearly says:

4. After programming is completed, if the noise is no longer present, take no further action. If the noise is still present, replace both of the turbocharger wastegate actuators in accordance with Repair Instruction RA 11 65 580, Replacing vacuum unit (wastegate) (N54).

this would mean that even after i get the pre waste gate operation and in the future i suddenly get the ticking noise, i will be covered correct?

it may be obvious but i just need feeling of reinsurance

Read again. Especially the first sentence which you did not highlight. The following goes for cars with build dates before 09/07:

It clearly says what I already stated: BMW wants to fix the wastegate problem of cars < 09/07 by software first. That is, they apply a newer software which opens the wastegates at idle, thus inducing lag and normally fixing the rattle (aka "rattle-fix"). Only if this fails will they replace the wastegates.

If the customer complains about the lag induced by the software, he can specifically the "wastegate retrofit" option (aka "lag-fix"). And in that case:

After the "Waste gate valve conversion" has been completed, some waste gate-related noise may be detected.

I.e., you're on your own or put another way: "You can't have the cake and eat it, too.". According to the SIB, official statement and whatnot, it's your choice between "lag" and "rattles".

[SAM67]

[QUOTE=meyergru;4680299]

An update can occur invisibly to you when you have a service visit. ED cars, for example are updated upon redelivery at the VPC weeks after initial build. Only the dealer can tell you the exact version on your car.

Meyergru: Thanks for the detailed info - very helpful. Regarding the above statement about reprogramming ED cars i[pm redelivery, where did you get this info? Picked up my 3/08 built 335i via European Delivery and it seems to have the lag. Dealership tells me that I "can't have lag" since my car has not been in for service. Would help to have some hard evidence since they seem to be sticking to their story. Thanks again.

[meyergru]

Originally Posted by SAM67

Meyergru: Thanks for the detailed info - very helpful. Regarding the above statement about reprogramming ED cars i[pm redelivery, where did you get this info? Picked up my 3/08 built 335i via European Delivery and it seems to have the lag. Dealership tells me that I "can't have lag" since my car has not been in for service. Would help to have some hard evidence since they seem to be sticking to their story. Thanks again.

Let's keep these kind of discussion to the main thread. Here is the answer:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...postcount=3976

Dealers tend to update very often. For a whole lot of problems an update is required in first the first place. And I am not even discussing "hidden" recalls. Somewhat exagerating, even an oil service can get you an update.

[sashah60]

great info for noobs (like me). however, i have a Feb 08 built e92, and both dealer and bmwna are denying an upgrade. bmwna rep was a bitch.

[Quisp]

There is a oart of the bulletin that has the word NEW in a red box. That section states they will not replace the turbo or actuator rods if said "turbocharger lag" is a customer's complaint, then the vehicle's DME software can be retrofitted to the original waste gate operation.
Now if we look at the other section that does aloow the replacement of those parts it refers to this problem The customer complains of a metallic noise from the exhaust system near the engine or turbocharger area. This noise is described as a clanking noise, occurring up to six or seven times in a row during a deceleration from approximately 3,500 RPM; or during a heavy application of the accelerator without a drive gear being engaged.
and a little farther down
After programming is completed, if the noise is no longer present, take no further action. If the noise is still present, replace both of the turbocharger wastegate actuators in accordance with Repair Instruction RA 11 65 580, Replacing vacuum unit (wastegate) (N54).
By the way it is worded, it appears as though there may be some grey are to play in.

[hl0m4n]

after reading it over and over i take this into conclusion:

for those that say i want the update b/c of turbo lag and don't have ticking noise (just want the lag gone) and get ticking noise after, bmw will not perform the new wastegate operation.

now if we say we have the ticking noise, bmw fixes, and noise is still there and then they will replace the wastegates through warranty.

bmw and their wording, very tricky indeed

[ezatnova]

Already a thread on this...and it's a sticky. nice and easy to see.

[ToadHollow]

Originally Posted by ezatnova

Already a thread on this...and it's a sticky. nice and easy to see.

Agreed.
However, the point of this thread is to sort out all of the repetitve Q&A's already asked in the other thread and to then post the actual fixes other's have had with their particular vehicle.

We really need to stay OT with this folks!

[Dangerlucas]

Thanks for posting this. I just read the TSB and it mentions the noise I've been noticing lately. I was worried it was an early symptom on the wastegate issue people have reported but it sounds like it's normal.

"Complaints received regarding a slight rattle from this area under steady acceleration in the 2,000 RPM to 4,000 RPM range are due to the rotating waste gate valve face; this is a characteristic of the mechanical waste gate. The rotating waste gate valve face is necessary to ensure proper sealing. This slight rattle noise is considered normal operation of the mechanical waste gate valve. No repair should be attempted for this type of rattling complaint."