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      03-19-2009, 03:15 PM   #45
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thanks for the link. I just wish the design of the upcoming BMWs gets better, I'm not worried of the power output.
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      03-19-2009, 06:03 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by BMWPower06 View Post
umm HELL no. Theres a reason BMW has always been using an Inline 6 layout, they will NEVER switch. V6 is garbage
Agreed, Hope they stick with the I6 Motor... I cant imagine BMW Going with a
V6. I just cant!
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      03-19-2009, 06:44 PM   #47
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You don't think they will make an optional "performance hybrid"?? Honda is trying that with the new CRZ (says motortrend). For a Honda? I think that's pretty cool....I certainly hope BMW gets that idea to promote their hybrid models or something stupid like that.

N/A all the way!!
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      03-19-2009, 08:06 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by blue2fire View Post
Turbo Four for the 1 Series M Car sounds good. Dont know about the Turbo Six for the M3 though, what is the difference between a 335i then?
Proper suspension and more then the 335s 300 horses.

I envision about 450-480 hp and 450 pounds of torque.
better brakes, and the option of getting a dct, and all the other gizmos and body feautures that make an m3 worth 60k.

Itll be badass, i really wish theyd go the way of a blown e9x m3 v8 though.


and ofcourse theyll stick to i-6's why, after their intense loyalty to them would they create a totally new design concept based on a v6. Better chance that theyll be a w16 in the new m3 then a v6

Also, with the base 135 being in the mid 40s optioned, and id assume that the m version would have a pretty large premium putting it at around 50-55 MSRP (assuming the next M3 rises in price to around 70k, as is the trend) and a turbod fourbanger, producing over 300 hp it could definitely move.

Bmw has to be carefull not making it too fast for the m3s good, which in my oppinion by making the 1 an M model, is either going to steal sales from the
M3 if it truly is a performance bargain with even slightly comproble performance, or if they chose to make it inferior risking making a sub-par car.

Bmw may be digging themselves into a hole that may cause them problems, as it is with P-cars and the cayman vs 911 i think the new M1 (or w.e. the hell they must call it) is gonna be a risky strategy. I think keeping the M badge between the 5 and 3 ( and 6... )series would be wise, and obviously for the sake of M owners keep it to even a semi exclusive ownership club.

I hate the fact that the x5 and x6 are gonna be M's, i find it rather hypocritical. The 1er i can understand, i just think its gonna dilute the formula of sucsess that has been the M departement since the original e30 m3

We shall see how the cards may fall i suppose.

Last edited by DakarE36; 03-19-2009 at 10:44 PM.
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      03-19-2009, 08:06 PM   #49
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      03-19-2009, 11:34 PM   #50
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well the idea of turbo is nothing new to BMW. I think back in the days of the M1 and 2002 tii turbo, they weren't happy with the lag; thus, the turbo idea was put-on the back burner. Nowadays technology has changed. But everyone should keep in mind that there are several reasons why BMW is changing. One being more hp and simple to attain, and the second would be fuel economy.
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      03-19-2009, 11:45 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by eatrach73 View Post
well the idea of turbo is nothing new to BMW. I think back in the days of the M1 and 2002 tii turbo, they weren't happy with the lag; thus, the turbo idea was put-on the back burner. Nowadays technology has changed. But everyone should keep in mind that there are several reasons why BMW is changing. One being more hp and simple to attain, and the second would be fuel economy.
In my eyes turbo's have not changed. If you put a large turbo on a car ull get that high end power feel that you get from an M car, but at the cost of turbo lag, which EVERY1 hates.

If you put a smaller turbo you get the 335i effect. Turbo lag is non-existant, however, the engine dies at anything above 6500revs.
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      03-19-2009, 11:50 PM   #52
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Glad to see an end to the bigger is better thinking. Looking forward to what BMW has down the pipe.

As to those that think the current crop of Ms are the "last real Ms". lol...
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      03-20-2009, 10:16 AM   #53
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BMW M3 to move to turbo six; 1-Series M green lighted


Facing increasingly strict emissions regulations in Europe and stringent fuel economy standards in North America, BMW confirmed late yesterday that its next-generation M3 will be powered by a turbocharged six-cylinder engine rather than the V8 currently under the high-performance 3-Series hood. BMWs M Group boss also hinted that the next-generation 1-Series will indeed offer an E30 M3-inspired M variant.

According to Motor Trend, BMWs M Group CEO, Ludwig Willisch, told a media roundtable that the next-generation M3, due in about 2013, will be forced to move to a high-power turbocharged six-cylinder. The M3, initially offered with a four-cylinder in its first iteration, was powered by a high-performance six-cylinder motor for its second and third generations, but the current M3 is powered by a 4.0-liter V8 based on the M5s V10.

Willisch wouldnt confirm if it will be a single or twin-turbo powerplant powering the next M3, but he did say that the engine will not be based on the 3.0-liter twin-turbo inline-six currently used in the 335i. BMW is apparently considering a V6, according to Willisch, who said that the V-configuration would yield a more compact engine that could be butted up against the firewall. He also indicated that the next-generation M3 might not be more powerful than the current, 414-horsepower car. The next-generation M3 will shed some weight and gain a more flexible powertrain.

Willisch also confirmed our earlier report that the next-generation 1-Series will offer a high-performance, M-designed model. Though it isnt expected to be called M1, the 1-Series M will, at least in BMWs eyes, reincarnate the first-generation E30″ M3 offered in the late 1980s and early 1990s. Expect power to hover in the 300-horsepower range thanks to a turbocharged four-cylinder.

Its expected that the M5 will also move down to a high-power six-cylinder or a V8.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well it is now confirmed as of Yesterday. Also worth noting is that the output is not expected to reach the heights of the current M3, some might see this as a bad thing but it's only PTW that really important to acceleration, though less output will probably mean less 'real' topspeed if anyone really cares about that one.

Great to see they have given the green light to a true successor to the original E30 M3.
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      03-20-2009, 10:38 AM   #54
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I just really hope that BMW manages to retain the current engines' ability to exceed at least 8000 rpm with the turbos, even if it means a bit less outright power.

If they can do that, and shed a considerable amount of kilos, and of course NOT go the V6 route, that would be just plain awesome.

I'm just wondering as well, with all these emissions and weight savings, will we be seeing the new 1 and 3 becoming a bit smaller? I'd hazard a bet that the current E90 is about as big as the E39 used to be. Not a bad thing necessarily, but to me one of the attractions BMW had was that they were more compact than the competition.

I'd like to see that becoming a selling point for BMW again.
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      03-20-2009, 11:00 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kooper View Post
I just really hope that BMW manages to retain the current engines' ability to exceed at least 8000 rpm with the turbos, even if it means a bit less outright power.

If they can do that, and shed a considerable amount of kilos, and of course NOT go the V6 route, that would be just plain awesome.
I actually don't see the possible move to V6 being a problem at all. There is a lot of good reasons to go that route over inline6, for a start the engine will only be 2/3 the length of the inline6 so will be easier to balance the weight inside the front axle, the engine noise of a V6 is usually sweeter though a turbo or two will probably kill most of this lovely sound.

Another point is mounting the turbos in between the Vee ala X6 4.4 engine, less pipe work means less weight and quicker spooling.

In fact I can't see BMW going any other route than a Vee for the next M3.
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      03-20-2009, 11:15 AM   #56
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I guess we get the only and last NA high power V8 that revs like crazy.
This thread makes me feel that I have a V8 M3 that's getting 15mpg.
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      03-20-2009, 11:23 AM   #57
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wow doesn't this sound familiar, this generation is the last true m3. you guys are delusional.
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      03-20-2009, 12:39 PM   #58
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Better fuel efficiency and less weight are good things. I don't care so much whether it's a turbo I6, V6 or NA V8 that powers it. If BMW can work its magic on a turbocharged engine so that it doesn't have turbo lag (doubtful) and so that it keeps the flat and wide torque curve of the S65 engine, then it will be a great car. Assuming all other things equal of course.
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      03-20-2009, 01:11 PM   #59
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Yuck.

hello turbo lag
This has been a point of criticism all along concerning the throttle response desired in an M engine. However, direct injection will largely mitigate turbo lag, when the two are carefully integrated and matched by BMW M (boy I am sure glad Sticky isn't reading here...). Member enigma has rightfully pointed out that you can't beat physics and the rotational inertia of the turbo fans can not be made to disappear. However, DI cleverness WILL help significantly. Before a large throttle depression the DI system will be operating in a lean burn mode, thus the exhaust gas mass will be higher than that of a port injected engine turbo charged engine. The rpm of the fans can be maintained 2-3x higher! Yes not 50% higher 2-3x! This combined with a rapid shifting DCT transmission for super fast downshifts will go a long way to making the next gen M have very minimal turbo lag and something we will all likely want to drive.
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      03-20-2009, 01:15 PM   #60
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Quote:
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This has been a point of criticism all along concerning the throttle response desired in an M engine. However, direct injection will largely mitigate turbo lag, when the two are carefully integrated and matched by BMW M (boy I am sure glad Sticky isn't reading here...). Member enigma has rightfully pointed out that you can't beat physics and the rotational inertia of the turbo fans can not be made to disappear. However, DI cleverness WILL help significantly. Before a large throttle depression the DI system will be operating in a lean burn mode, thus the exhaust gas mass will be higher than that of a port injected engine turbo charged engine. The rpm of the fans can be maintained 2-3x higher! Yes not 50% higher 2-3x! This combined with a rapid shifting DCT transmission for super fast downshifts will go a long way to making the next gen M have very minimal turbo lag and something we will all likely want to drive.
Imagine such an engine in combination with KERS. Turbo lag...what's that?


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      03-20-2009, 01:25 PM   #61
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Turbo Four for the 1 Series M Car sounds good. Dont know about the Turbo Six for the M3 though, what is the difference between a 335i then?

next gen 335 might just be an I6 while the M3 gets the twin turbo....after all, look at the massive power the Nissan GT-R is getting from a 6 cylinder twin turbo....and the Porsche Turbo...and so on...
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      03-20-2009, 01:39 PM   #62
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I actually don't see the possible move to V6 being a problem at all. There is a lot of good reasons to go that route over inline6, for a start the engine will only be 2/3 the length of the inline6 so will be easier to balance the weight inside the front axle, the engine noise of a V6 is usually sweeter though a turbo or two will probably kill most of this lovely sound.

Another point is mounting the turbos in between the Vee ala X6 4.4 engine, less pipe work means less weight and quicker spooling.

In fact I can't see BMW going any other route than a Vee for the next M3.
There's nothing inherently wrong with a V6, sure. But I find a V6 for a BMW a terrible, horrifying and downright ridiculous idea.

Imagine Porsche replacing their flat 6 with a V6 for the next 911... It's kind of the same thing for me with BMW possibly dumping their inline 6.

A V6 for a BMW, any BMW for that matter, is just blasphemy.

I know a V6 is shorter and can be mounted lower. And sure it sounds good in some cars. It's just that a BMW must have an inline-6, if for no other reason than it being BMW tradition. Give me a longer bonnet to accommodate the engine, I'm fine with that. I don't care if the engine itself is a smidge higher than a V6 would've been either, I'd still have half a bank of a V12 under my bonnet (that has to count for something).

They've been singing the reasons for using an inline over a V for years, and so have their clientele. Why mess with something that obviously works?

I might be making a bigger deal out of it than it should be, but darn it, Porsche makes flat 6s, Subaru makes flat 4s, Ferrari makes V12s and BMW makes inline 6s. This V6 talk is upsetting the delicate balance within my automotive universe.
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      03-20-2009, 01:55 PM   #63
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big deal bro, it's just an engine at the end! and as the way the economy is going down the shitter, i don't see BMW doing it any other way!
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      03-20-2009, 02:09 PM   #64
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big deal bro, it's just an engine at the end! and as the way the economy is going down the shitter, i don't see BMW doing it any other way!
Again, I am probably making a mountain out of a mole hill here.

The way I see it, a BMW is engine and drivetrain first, everything else second. It's supposed to be an engineering company after all.

I fail to see how a V6 vs. an I6 could improve BMW's financial position to be honest. It's not as if one is cheaper to make or maintain than the other, unless someone can enlighten me.

But anyways, I still stand by my statement, if BMW goes V6, I'm not going to BMW's dealerships.
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      03-20-2009, 02:11 PM   #65
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Well Kooper, many a member here were up in arms at the thought of the next M3 being forced induction and guess what that is exactly what it will be getting. The simple truth is that BMW will decide what is the best option open to them and if that happens to be a V6 then so be it.

P.S.
Ferrari makes V6s, V8s, V10s, V12s and a boxer 12 throughout it's history, the same for Porsche and numerous other brands, I bet if you looked through BMW's history you would be surprised at the different engines that have been used.

I say hold judgement until firstly we know exactly what it is, including it's complete spec and more importantly either you get to read some reviews or better still sample it youself.
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      03-20-2009, 02:12 PM   #66
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One thing occured to me...

Why not just destroke the S65 to 3L, and add DI/turbos/KERS? I don't see why a 3L V8 should have to be any less efficient than a 3L I6 (or V6 or H6 for that matter).
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