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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Injen or AFE or BMS



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      03-24-2009, 02:08 AM   #1
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Injen or AFE or BMS

Just wanted to get some thoughts. Which intake do you think is best for my 335? I have the AFE Dual Intake already but I am liking the new INJEN Dual Intake. Any thoughts.
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      03-24-2009, 02:15 AM   #2
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I'm in the same boat.

My opinion is that if you already have a DCI, then all you are basically doing is paying for looks. The Injen looks the best, but also is pricey.

Go for what you think looks good.
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      03-24-2009, 02:29 AM   #3
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Cheapest DCI seems to be the popular vote...

as for me, im going from my DCI to a drop in air filter.....
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      03-24-2009, 02:31 AM   #4
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DCI unless you plan on showing your car or driving around without your hood on and want to show off.
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      03-24-2009, 04:37 AM   #5
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My AIT testing above proves the DCI is more than sufficient. The "cold air" intakes are nothing more than pretty and expensive, but there is no performance gain.
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      03-24-2009, 07:57 AM   #6
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I dont really see how it proves that unless you test a CAI and compare numbers. Just because you have fairly low AIT's with your DCI doesnt mean a CAI wont bring them down another 10-20 degrees or more..



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Originally Posted by Former_Boosted_IS View Post
My AIT testing above proves the DCI is more than sufficient. The "cold air" intakes are nothing more than pretty and expensive, but there is no performance gain.
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      03-24-2009, 08:38 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcarlucci1 View Post
I dont really see how it proves that unless you test a CAI and compare numbers. Just because you have fairly low AIT's with your DCI doesnt mean a CAI wont bring them down another 10-20 degrees or more..
Are you serious? I am not trying to bash at all. Intakes are about one thing and one thing only on an intercooled car and that is providing a means for the turbo to draw the highest volume of air. The surface area of the filters is the highest priority for intakes, hence the reason we see intakes sitting next to the turbo even on giant turbo cars. I am not sure I can convince anyone, but I am willing to bet you will see nearly no difference between the DCI or the UR CAI or the Injen Intake. If someone wants to send me a CAI or Injen, then I will test them to prove the point. I am not doing dyno testing, but real world results.
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      03-24-2009, 08:59 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Former_Boosted_IS View Post
...Intakes are about one thing and one thing only on an intercooled car and that is providing a means for the turbo to draw the highest volume of air...
Very good point, although I think all would agree that a higher volume of cooler air is better than a higher volume of warmer air.
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      03-24-2009, 09:02 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Former_Boosted_IS View Post
Are you serious? I am not trying to bash at all. Intakes are about one thing and one thing only on an intercooled car and that is providing a means for the turbo to draw the highest volume of air. The surface area of the filters is the highest priority for intakes, hence the reason we see intakes sitting next to the turbo even on giant turbo cars. I am not sure I can convince anyone, but I am willing to bet you will see nearly no difference between the DCI or the UR CAI or the Injen Intake. If someone wants to send me a CAI or Injen, then I will test them to prove the point. I am not doing dyno testing, but real world results.
Dyno testing isn't going to prove anything. The testing you have done is far better then any dyno, unless you can dyno in a wind tunnel.

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      03-24-2009, 09:22 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klepper1 View Post
Very good point, although I think all would agree that a higher volume of cooler air is better than a higher volume of warmer air.
Klepper, I am sorry but no I don't agree. The intercooler efficiency on one like the Active Autowerke I have is around 90-93%. You are talking about a 20 degrees difference before the air hits the turbo, then lets say that runs through the turbo and heats equally, so you get 20 degree colder air to the IC. Now lets use the low side of the efficience range of 90% to find the difference that hits the engine as AIT.

Here is the efficiency equation:



Eic = Intercooler Efficiency
Tin = Inlet Temperature
Tout = Outlet Temperature
Tambient = Ambient Temperature

Therefore, Tin - Eic*(Tin - Tambient) = Tout

Through my testing we can approximately figure out the inlet temperature doing some simple math. If I use your 20 degree cooler air entering the filter then that will result in 2 degrees F colder air leaving the outlet side on an intercooler with a 90% efficiency. Only 2 degrees. Buy the dual cones and use the remaining $300 to put toward an upgraded intercooler like the Active Autowerke one I just installed on my car.
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      03-24-2009, 09:52 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Former_Boosted_IS View Post
Klepper, I am sorry but no I don't agree. The intercooler efficiency on one like the Active Autowerke I have is around 90-93%. You are talking about a 20 degrees difference before the air hits the turbo, then lets say that runs through the turbo and heats equally, so you get 20 degree colder air to the IC. Now lets use the low side of the efficience range of 90% to find the difference that hits the engine as AIT.

Here is the efficiency equation:



Eic = Intercooler Efficiency
Tin = Inlet Temperature
Tout = Outlet Temperature
Tambient = Ambient Temperature

Therefore, Tin - Eic*(Tin - Tambient) = Tout

Through my testing we can approximately figure out the inlet temperature doing some simple math. If I use your 20 degree cooler air entering the filter then that will result in 2 degrees F colder air leaving the outlet side on an intercooler with a 90% efficiency. Only 2 degrees. Buy the dual cones and use the remaining $300 to put toward an upgraded intercooler like the Active Autowerke one I just installed on my car.
I agree the number may be small (only 2 degrees) when using an upgraded fmic. But assuming someone with the stock fmic, which is maybe only 75% efficient, it may make 5 degrees difference. Maybe the stock is even worse (based on your testing) and it's only 60% efficient after some heat soak, and the under hood air is actually 30 degrees warmer as well (not 20) the difference may be closer to 12 degrees.

All I was trying to point out was that the ideal situation on our cars is to have a filter that is as free flowing at the DCI's, but ALSO has a source of cold air. It is not ONLY about free flowing. The real reason you want free flowing in the first place is so that the compression ratio for the turbo is not as high so it doesn't heat up the air as much during compression (free flowing gives a higher "suction" pressure for the turbo). And the reason for the fmic is to cool the air post compression.

In reality, we are trying to get high pressure, cool air into the engine. The more oxygen molecules we can jam in there, the more fuel we can burn which means - more power!!
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      03-24-2009, 09:58 AM   #12
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1 vote for the DCI. Simplest solution is really the best right now. I agree that you're paying for looks for other intakes, but that may be important to some.
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      03-24-2009, 09:59 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klepper1 View Post
I agree the number may be small (only 2 degrees) when using an upgraded fmic. But assuming someone with the stock fmic, which is maybe only 75% efficient, it may make 5 degrees difference. Maybe the stock is even worse (based on your testing) and it's only 60% efficient after some heat soak, and the under hood air is actually 30 degrees warmer as well (not 20) the difference may be closer to 12 degrees.

All I was trying to point out was that the ideal situation on our cars is to have a filter that is as free flowing at the DCI's, but ALSO has a source of cold air. It is not ONLY about free flowing. The real reason you want free flowing in the first place is so that the compression ratio for the turbo is not as high so it doesn't heat up the air as much during compression (free flowing gives a higher "suction" pressure for the turbo). And the reason for the fmic is to cool the air post compression.

In reality, we are trying to get high pressure, cool air into the engine. The more molecules we can jam in there, the more fuel we can burn which means - more power!!
I am not trying to be difficult, but you simply are not correct. Buy a DCI, save the $300 and you are closer to getting an intercooler. The CAI does nothing.

Listen to what I am saying, the AITs were 151 after only three pulls. I have proved that cooling AITs is solved in one way and that is through an upgraded intercooler.

The bold area also makes no sense at all? Compression ratio of the turbos? There is no compression ratio on turbos? What the? Can someone else please jump in here so we don't confuse those trying to learn.
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      03-24-2009, 10:13 AM   #14
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What about the "ram effect" with an intake like the Riss set-up with the scoops and plenum blowing air directly onto the intake. It seems like this "ram effect" might make it even easier to suck the air (less resistance) and on top of the the air would be 20-30 degrees colder. Couldn't this theoretically provide gains?
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      03-24-2009, 10:15 AM   #15
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      03-24-2009, 10:18 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juicer View Post
What about the "ram effect" with an intake like the Riss set-up with the scoops and plenum blowing air directly onto the intake. It seems like this "ram effect" might make it even easier to suck the air (less resistance) and on top of the the air would be 20-30 degrees colder. Couldn't this theoretically provide gains?
Technically it could if and only if it was a completely sealed system in my opinion. I think the intercooler testing has shown definitively that an upgraded intercooler takes all those things out of the equation. Pulling or pushing air will have no effect on the temperatures.

I don't want to bash anyone or any intake, but I just want you guys to know that you can save a lot of money here if looks are not your top priority. If looks are, then I completely understand you choice.
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      03-24-2009, 10:26 AM   #17
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I am certainly not trying to be difficult either. We are all trying to learn here.

Instead of saying "you are simply not correct", please explain why. The turbo's are indeed compressing the air. That is their whole function. The ratio of their suction pressure and their discharge pressure is called "compression ratio".

You have proved that IAT's are lowered with a better fmic. You have not proved that they can NOT be lowered further with a better intake (and I am not saying one exists).

All I am saying is that an intake that is as free flowing as DCI's but that take in colder air would be better and produce lower IAT's.
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      03-24-2009, 10:29 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Former_Boosted_IS View Post
Technically it could if and only if it was a completely sealed system in my opinion. I think the intercooler testing has shown definitively that an upgraded intercooler takes all those things out of the equation. Pulling or pushing air will have no effect on the temperatures.

I don't want to bash anyone or any intake, but I just want you guys to know that you can save a lot of money here if looks are not your top priority. If looks are, then I completely understand you choice.
How can you state that as a fact? All your testing has proved is that your upgraded FMIC produces lower IAT's. That's it.
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      03-24-2009, 10:34 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klepper1 View Post
I agree the number may be small (only 2 degrees) when using an upgraded fmic. But assuming someone with the stock fmic, which is maybe only 75% efficient, it may make 5 degrees difference. Maybe the stock is even worse (based on your testing) and it's only 60% efficient after some heat soak, and the under hood air is actually 30 degrees warmer as well (not 20) the difference may be closer to 12 degrees.

All I was trying to point out was that the ideal situation on our cars is to have a filter that is as free flowing at the DCI's, but ALSO has a source of cold air. It is not ONLY about free flowing. The real reason you want free flowing in the first place is so that the compression ratio for the turbo is not as high so it doesn't heat up the air as much during compression (free flowing gives a higher "suction" pressure for the turbo). And the reason for the fmic is to cool the air post compression.

In reality, we are trying to get high pressure, cool air into the engine. The more oxygen molecules we can jam in there, the more fuel we can burn which means - more power!!
I get what you are saying. Colder air is more dense, so at a given volume of air entering the turbo, colder air is "more air". The question is how much more dense is 80 degree air compared with 100-110 degree air, I'm sure there is an equation for that. If the air is more dense, then that is one way to supply more air to the turbo with less resistence, just like the open filter decreases resistence.

I'm just trying to look at the resistence the turbo has in drawing in air. It has been shown/proven that decreasing resistence of air entering the turbo provides gains (the open filter). If the air is colder/denser than that would also make it easier/less resistance for the turbo to draw in air.
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      03-24-2009, 10:39 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juicer View Post
What about the "ram effect" with an intake like the Riss set-up with the scoops and plenum blowing air directly onto the intake. It seems like this "ram effect" might make it even easier to suck the air (less resistance) and on top of the the air would be 20-30 degrees colder. Couldn't this theoretically provide gains?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Former_Boosted_IS View Post
Technically it could if and only if it was a completely sealed system in my opinion. I think the intercooler testing has shown definitively that an upgraded intercooler takes all those things out of the equation. Pulling or pushing air will have no effect on the temperatures.

I don't want to bash anyone or any intake, but I just want you guys to know that you can save a lot of money here if looks are not your top priority. If looks are, then I completely understand you choice.
Please tell me why you think a "ram" air could technically make a difference if it was a completely sealed system? I agree with you, I think it will too. And the reason.....because the ram air will give the turbo's a higher suction pressure, which reduces the compression ratio of the turbo's, which means they heat up the air less.
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      03-24-2009, 10:41 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klepper1 View Post
I am certainly not trying to be difficult either. We are all trying to learn here.

Instead of saying "you are simply not correct", please explain why. The turbo's are indeed compressing the air. That is their whole function. The ratio of their suction pressure and their discharge pressure is called "compression ratio".

You have proved that IAT's are lowered with a better fmic. You have not proved that they can NOT be lowered further with a better intake (and I am not saying one exists).

All I am saying is that an intake that is as free flowing as DCI's but that take in colder air would be better and produce lower IAT's.
Fair enough. The turbos are forcing air into the engine. That creates a positive pressure on the manifold above the atmospheric pressure. If you are +14 psi, then the turbos are forcing about twice the atmospheric pressure(14.7 psi) into the engine. That is how boost is created.

Compression ratio is how much that air that is in the cylinder will be compressed when the piston reaches its TDC (Top Dead Center) position. So if the compression ratio is 11:1, then the as the piston rises the air will be compressed to about 1/11 of its original volume. If you have a compression ratio of 8.5:1, then it will be compressed to about 2/17 of its original volume.

Now, compressing air (with all else equal) will cause adiabatic heating with both the compression stroke or the turbos boosting.

I hope that helps clear up the difference.
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      03-24-2009, 10:45 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klepper1 View Post
Please tell me why you think a "ram" air could technically make a difference if it was a completely sealed system? I agree with you, I think it will too. And the reason.....because the ram air will give the turbo's a higher suction pressure, which reduces the compression ratio of the turbo's, which means they heat up the air less.

I am trying to help, but you simply don't understand the concepts of a turbo car. I really am not trying to be rude, but you are hurting the forum by spreading these mis-information in the forums. This has been a major issue on this forum.

An intake is for one thing, providing enough air for the turbos to pull. If there is sufficient surface area on the intake then it does its job well. Intercoolers lower AITs. Simple. If you want to send me one of these intakes I will gladly log AITs. I suspect they would not want me to do that because the data will show nearly no difference in AITs.

Ask Shiv or Terry what they think? Or see what they sell.
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