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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > truck vs e90 335



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      04-06-2009, 03:24 PM   #1
satakal
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truck vs e90 335

guess who's faster and by how much?

fast time of the day was about 80 seconds. BMWCCA autox San Diego. Go Chargers!

'02 S-10 Xtreme
5mt 4.3L v6 180 hp 245 tq (bone stock)
245 50 16 BFG g-Force Sport (340 treadwear)
driver: not his first rodeo

'08 e90 335i
6mt - mods: tune and dci
235 40 18 Bridgestone RE01-R (180 treadwear)
driver: waaaay more seat time than you
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      04-06-2009, 04:49 PM   #2
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Satakal was very impressive
CORDED brand new tires on the truck !!!
The E90 335 is my car...

So your guesses?
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      04-06-2009, 06:34 PM   #3
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Wow.. No one is interested to see how the truck ran compared to a modded 335 at the Autocross

Give you a hint, the difference was only 2.6 seconds..
But who was faster?

A couple of things to note on my end:
1. Square is the way to go... The car was so much more neutral, way less understeer and much easier to rotate around the tight autocross compared to stock (running 235-40-18 all around)
2. Extra power is useless at an autocross, you just can't use it and you are always feathering the throttle
3. Turbo cars suck big time... As the car was reaching higher temps (yes even from one run) of up to 270, it would start to get heat socked and the turbo lag would become more and more obvious... Getting the power out of turns took a half second.. At an autocross with turn after turn after turn, it gets very annoying to have this delayed throttle response and this half second wait until the power comes... Then when it does if you give too much throttle, you get power oversteer very quickly and come out of the turn sideways...

In conclusion as much as I love my car, it is not a good autocross car at all...
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      04-06-2009, 06:39 PM   #4
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Well, i'm guessing since your bothering with a post that it be the one you wouldn't expect. The truck?
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      04-06-2009, 11:39 PM   #5
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really? lol wanna c the truck in action
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      04-07-2009, 12:12 AM   #6
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Ha ha... No not really.. The 335 driven by me was in fact 2.6 faster...
We figured that since Satakal was 3 seconds faster than me on Saturday when we were both running our 335's and that the truck would be about 5 seconds slower than the 335Then difference should be 2 seconds..
So we had a bet going with a 2 seconds handicap... I won by 2.6 seconds
Satakal owes me a beer now :-)
First time I ever beat him he he... Autocross is really about the driver not the car
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      04-07-2009, 11:53 AM   #7
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So if turbo lag is such a hindrance then why are Evos so popular at the national level?
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      04-07-2009, 11:54 AM   #8
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Terrible conclusion. I almost hoping you'd say "the s10 did it in 10.9".
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      04-07-2009, 12:13 PM   #9
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Quote:
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So if turbo lag is such a hindrance then why are Evos so popular at the national level?
most have upgraded 3.5"-4" core so don't get heatsoaked as much.

There is only 1 thing evo is not good at,, pulling down panties
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      04-07-2009, 12:18 PM   #10
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There is only 1 thing evo is not good at,, pulling down panties
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      04-07-2009, 12:30 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdkevoIX View Post
most have upgraded 3.5"-4" core so don't get heatsoaked as much.

There is only 1 thing evo is not good at,, pulling down panties

Exactly, the turbo lag on the 335 is more evident as the temps go up and the engine starts to get heat soaked... Plus a good driver (read: better than me) can learn to drive around the lag by applying throttle earlier during turn exit in anticipation of the lag... I am not quite at that level yet.
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      04-07-2009, 12:42 PM   #12
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I've seen some wierd stuff at the track. Like a prius, a hyundai, and a smart car. But, an s-10 beating a 335? Not likely. Also, the s-10 paid a pretty heavy penalty for trying to catch the 335. Killed the right front tire dead. Two more laps on it, and the tire would have blown.

Lets not forget... I won the non-M class in my stock 335 by a healthy chunk of time. My time was almost good enough to win non-M modified too. Also, if the guy from Irvine with the N54 535 would have been there, he probably would have been faster than me. (conclusion: most capable non-M car/motor BMW makes) I had 2 better-than-me drivers drive my car hard this weekend. With both of them, we talked about the non-linearity of the turbo. My car is update 30ish.

The car is great, but the differential, and the turbo make for more of a handful than necessary. Oh, and I told Ramos that he'd be slower with the tune. And, I'm pretty sure he would have been a tiny bit faster if he was stock. I don't know how to explain it. Maybe something about being scared of the car makes the driver less ballsy? Or, if your mind is focused on putting down the power, it's not on apex speed?

From what they tell us, autocross is about having the car rotated and getting to the throttle before the apex. If you're getting to the throttle at or after the apex, you're going too slow. With that in mind, you end up playing lot of pitch-and-catch. Drive by wire, and 1/2 second delay getting on boost is a killer.
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      04-07-2009, 12:57 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by satakal View Post
From what they tell us, autocross is about having the car rotated and getting to the throttle before the apex. If you're getting to the throttle at or after the apex, you're going too slow. With that in mind, you end up playing lot of pitch-and-catch. Drive by wire, and 1/2 second delay getting on boost is a killer.
I have had these very same experiences when I have autocrossed my 335 coupe. The delay in throttle response, the body roll, and the weight are kilers. Makes for a somewhat frustrating experience.
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      04-07-2009, 01:35 PM   #14
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I have had these very same experiences when I have autocrossed my 335 coupe. The delay in throttle response, the body roll, and the weight are kilers. Makes for a somewhat frustrating experience.
yet... if you want to win at the San Diego chapter autox events where classes are M, M mod, 6-8-12 cyl, and 6-8-12 cyl mod, n54 powered cars always win 6cyl stock.

I'm the idiot that drives a stock focus, a stock s-10, a 5cyl e30, and my 335. I'm learning how the driver needs to adapt to the car. I know we expect our ultimate driving machine to be perfect. Maybe we need to meet the car half way and it is?
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      04-07-2009, 03:14 PM   #15
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Quote:
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The car is great, but the differential, and the turbo make for more of a handful than necessary.
+1

I love the 335 for the street... I think it is the best luxury/sport compromise that exists period...

As for AutoX and Track use, I would much prefer to have an LSD and lose the Turbo... I am in the market for a cheap E36 M3 that I will turn into a project/track car and keep my 335 for street use only.

Satakal is aslo right about being slower with a faster car... It was very easy to get up to 85 MPH on the short straight at the AutoX.. That meant that getting the braking point right was crutial... I ended up focusing too much on my braking and not enough on the line.. Having a slower car would make braking easier, and would allow a novice like myself to focus on the line, and would not cover up mistakes by having the power to pull out of the turn even if you messed up the entry... I am now convinced that Satakal is right and that I would learn more from a slower momentum car... Maybe I should look into Miata's instead of the E36 M3 that I want
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      04-07-2009, 05:10 PM   #16
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don't be lame like me. Going fast and learning to go fast aren't the same thing. Also, the above point about attracting poon is something to consider. A miata may attract undesirable male attention.
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      04-07-2009, 06:40 PM   #17
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Oh well... It's the price you pay... But in the end I have wanted an E36 M3 ever since they came out.. it's my favorite BMW and I owe it to myself to have one :-)
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      04-07-2009, 07:13 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdkevoIX View Post
most have upgraded 3.5"-4" core so don't get heatsoaked as much.

There is only 1 thing evo is not good at,, pulling down panties
Of busted asian girls?




jk...took it too far, haha.
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      04-07-2009, 07:24 PM   #19
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i'm going to say truck, if you have to ask it is probley the most "unexpected" answer so i'll say truck!
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      04-07-2009, 10:32 PM   #20
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I used to have so much fun autocrossing. I used to autocross my GN with the Porsche Club. Talk about turbo lag and a heavy car. It was a real handful. I would come through the timing lights sideways! It was so much fun, and I did decent beating a few Porsches and Corvettes to boot. It is all about the driver in these kind of events. There were many cars that absolutely should have killed me, and I ended up beating them. Unbelievably on the real tight courses, some of these small engine old Honda Civics absolutely killed many of the muscle cars. I know I would have lots of fun in the 335i. It is however very hard on the car, brakes, and tires. But it gets me excited just thinking about it. I think i'm going to find out if they have an event close by soon.
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      04-08-2009, 12:00 PM   #21
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my favorite autox experience is killin' noobs at a Porsche club autox with my dad's stock focus. I've labeled cars like the focus and the s-10 "ego killers". Everyone thinks they're a good driver. But, when your Boxster S gets beat by a hunk of junk Focus, you realize you suck.

The coolest thing I ever seen at an autox is an LT1 Impalla SS. What a boat. And, it was fast!

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May 16-17
http://sdbmwcca.com/calendar.html

I'll be at the SD autox. I'm thinking about the LA one.
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      04-08-2009, 05:14 PM   #22
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Yep.. skills count more than car. Smooth and slow is better than aggressive and fast.

Turbos don't do so good on auto x with the slow speeds. You might want to bring a cooler of ice with you to events - keep your drinks cool and douse the IC in ice water between runs. Or if you want to spend the money, get an Ntercooler.
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