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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Technical Forums > Suspension | Brakes | Chassis > Sway bars or any suggestions to improve handling/cornering



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      04-29-2009, 11:59 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Kevin@SupremePower View Post
did alex get back to you?
Yes he did, but I havent found a deal on any of these sways/braces yet!!



So much I want to get, but so little money.. I'm also looking to upgrade my DSLR too....
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      04-29-2009, 12:02 PM   #24
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Yes he did, but I havent found a deal on any of these sways/braces yet!!



So much I want to get, but so little money.. I'm also looking to upgrade my DSLR too....

haha yea i know its never ending bro! did ya talk to harold about pricing on the sways? or the m3 control arms?
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      04-29-2009, 01:48 PM   #25
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haha yea i know its never ending bro! did ya talk to harold about pricing on the sways? or the m3 control arms?
Not yet man.

I'm still not too sure what to get~~ I might be holding off the mod and upgrade my DSLR first.. which is going to run me like $2500.. but my soon-to-be-wifey wants it.. and I sort of.. want it as well... damn, i need to find a 2nd job to support my life style...
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      04-30-2009, 04:21 PM   #26
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I was in on the group buy...got the chassis brace installed right away. I could tell a MAJOR difference! Taking hard turns and quick swerves were much tighter.

Well yesterday I got the front sway installed...just not the back. That will come later.

OMG. The difference is unreal. It literally feels like it is on a rail. Of course there is lean when taking hard corners....that is ME leaning into the G's. The car has no roll at all.

Other than my tune, this is by far the best mod I have done.

That rear sway is a monster to install, though. That's why I keep putting it off. My "guy" who does the work for me wants half a day. You have to drop the entire rear linkage. The instructions look easy enough, but it's one thing to read it...something else to DO it.

But yeah, I think it was money well spent. Next up for me will be some coilovers, and I will be DONE wih my mods. I will have updated/upgraded literally everything on my car other than the engine itself!
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      05-01-2009, 02:36 AM   #27
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'in general' (i haven't seen the camber curve for our car so i'm guessing) if you lower the car too much it makes handling worse because the suspension is usually operating outside of the good part of the curve, and you have to run excessively stiff suspension to keep from bottoming out.

personally, if that's your car in your signature picture, i would raise up the ride height and get it corner weighted and aligned appropriately. i think that will make your existing equipment work better.

a lot of the time people toss on parts and equal less roll with better handling.. flatter <> faster

best of luck and enjoy your mods. i think you shouldn't worry to much about improvement and just get parts that makes the car feel good to you. you really can't quantify any changes in the setup without laptimes or other testing equipment anyway
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      05-01-2009, 09:30 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Nazareno View Post
personally, if that's your car in your signature picture, i would raise up the ride height and get it corner weighted and aligned appropriately. i think that will make your existing equipment work better.

...you really can't quantify any changes in the setup without laptimes or other testing equipment anyway
+1 BINGO!!

The ride-height of his car already tells me that all the useful posts in this thread are LOST on the OP. (Yes, I know your avatar has been Photochopped.) I COMPLETELY agree that training the butt-nard behind the wheel is the single biggest impact you can have on improving the cars handling. That is EXACTLY the info the OP is looking for, right? If it was a "what suspension looks cool so I can impress my friends" threads then we'd be wrong for suggesting a Driving School.

Let's throw some pretend numbers around, shall we? Let's assume that the OP has never driven his car to 100% (which I think is fair to say). Maybe he bounced off the electric nannies a few times. While he thinks that's 'the limit', it's just his poor driving that the car is saving him from. So lets guess that the most he's pulled continuously through a corner on the street is ~.7-.8g. His car is well capable of 1.2g+ on a nice sweeper at race track in bone stock form on street tires. (I've seen VBOX data from Gingerman Raceway in Michigan, so I know this to be fairly accurate.)

So the OP goes out and drops a grand on all this fancy suspension to use on the street. Assuming he purchases a well-engineered, well-balanced package (HA!), I'd guess that he is still no where near the ~1g+ he could acheive in stock form. While the car more than likely corners harder and turns in quicker, he's probably only raised his personal limit to what... .8g's, .9g's? Ooooo.

OP, listen to HRC and The Hack. A track day with your ride will give you the ability to push your car harder and farther than you can imagine. You state that the guys didn't understand the question which reads:

"The question is not to maximize the capability of the car... The thread is about "how" or "what" can improve handling of the car..."

Soooo.... you don't want to improve the cars handling but you want to know what will improve the cars handling. Right. I'm not quite sure you know what you're asking for.
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      05-01-2009, 11:11 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowcruzr View Post
+1 BINGO!!

The ride-height of his car already tells me that all the useful posts in this thread are LOST on the OP. (Yes, I know your avatar has been Photochopped.) I COMPLETELY agree that training the butt-nard behind the wheel is the single biggest impact you can have on improving the cars handling. That is EXACTLY the info the OP is looking for, right? If it was a "what suspension looks cool so I can impress my friends" threads then we'd be wrong for suggesting a Driving School.

Let's throw some pretend numbers around, shall we? Let's assume that the OP has never driven his car to 100% (which I think is fair to say). Maybe he bounced off the electric nannies a few times. While he thinks that's 'the limit', it's just his poor driving that the car is saving him from. So lets guess that the most he's pulled continuously through a corner on the street is ~.7-.8g. His car is well capable of 1.2g+ on a nice sweeper at race track in bone stock form on street tires. (I've seen VBOX data from Gingerman Raceway in Michigan, so I know this to be fairly accurate.)

So the OP goes out and drops a grand on all this fancy suspension to use on the street. Assuming he purchases a well-engineered, well-balanced package (HA!), I'd guess that he is still no where near the ~1g+ he could acheive in stock form. While the car more than likely corners harder and turns in quicker, he's probably only raised his personal limit to what... .8g's, .9g's? Ooooo.

OP, listen to HRC and The Hack. A track day with your ride will give you the ability to push your car harder and farther than you can imagine. You state that the guys didn't understand the question which reads:

"The question is not to maximize the capability of the car... The thread is about "how" or "what" can improve handling of the car..."

Soooo.... you don't want to improve the cars handling but you want to know what will improve the cars handling. Right. I'm not quite sure you know what you're asking for.
I am somewhat confused, but I think your entire post literally comes down to

1) Track my car
2) Then i will find out how well my car can perform stock form
3) Then i can decide whether I need to upgrade.

Correct?

Here is my answer.

1) Probably, but just do not have a chance to do so yet.
2) See #1
3) See #2

Now, by implying the logic you have, I should not

1) Upgrade because I have no idea how the car performs
2) Parts upgrade does not really matter to me, because I dont know how well my car performs in stock form anyway, what possibly the difference I can make?

Now, I'm not talking about dropping or suspension, so I'm a little lost there on assuming if i have a good suspension? I dont know what is "good", but I have KW V1 and so far, I love it and i think it is good?

Now, about my car height. Yes, it is photoshopped. The real drop is also in the same thread, so about.. umm 1 - 2 finger higher both rear/front (1" - 1.5"?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowcruzr View Post
Soooo.... you don't want to improve the cars handling but you want to know what will improve the cars handling. Right. I'm not quite sure you know what you're asking for.
I'm lost here. You said I dont want to improve the cars handling? Did you arrive that conclusion because I have a lowered car, or because i never tracked my car "yet", or because I have not taken a professional tracking lesson?

So, not having done all of those should makes me "not want to improve my handling", and why bother asking "what improves" the car handling?



I think I should buy more of those equipement on how much gs I'm running when I make my turns so that I can improve..

Man, I just asked a simple question of if sway/strut bars/brace improves the handling of a car. Simple recommendation can be "yes", or "no"... Then we go off to say, I should take professional driving schools and track the hell out of my car first before i upgrade.
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      05-01-2009, 11:42 AM   #30
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I'm out!! (J. Rome clone)

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      05-01-2009, 11:46 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PNF View Post
I am somewhat confused, but I think your entire post literally comes down to

1) Track my car
2) Then i will find out how well my car can perform stock form
3) Then i can decide whether I need to upgrade.

Correct?

Here is my answer.

1) Probably, but just do not have a chance to do so yet.
2) See #1
3) See #2

Now, by implying the logic you have, I should not

1) Upgrade because I have no idea how the car performs
2) Parts upgrade does not really matter to me, because I dont know how well my car performs in stock form anyway, what possibly the difference I can make?

Now, I'm not talking about dropping or suspension, so I'm a little lost there on assuming if i have a good suspension? I dont know what is "good", but I have KW V1 and so far, I love it and i think it is good?

Now, about my car height. Yes, it is photoshopped. The real drop is also in the same thread, so about.. umm 1 - 2 finger higher both rear/front (1" - 1.5"?)



I'm lost here. You said I dont want to improve the cars handling? Did you arrive that conclusion because I have a lowered car, or because i never tracked my car "yet", or because I have not taken a professional tracking lesson?

So, not having done all of those should makes me "not want to improve my handling", and why bother asking "what improves" the car handling?



I think I should buy more of those equipement on how much gs I'm running when I make my turns so that I can improve..

Man, I just asked a simple question of if sway/strut bars/brace improves the handling of a car. Simple recommendation can be "yes", or "no"... Then we go off to say, I should take professional driving schools and track the hell out of my car first before i upgrade.
i know what ur saying bro, who cares if someone thinks u cant drive beyond the ability of ur car in stock form, it comes down to doing what u want to the car to enjoy it and make it more fun for YOU to drive at any skill level. you dont need to track your car to enjoy or want the things ur asking about.
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      05-01-2009, 12:30 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HRC View Post
I'm out!! (J. Rome clone)

Danny
hey man, by all means and no offense, I think I learned quite a few lessons here and they are very good info. I like to learn. So, thanks for the info, really.

Just that, i was meaning to see if anyone who has installed them enjoyed their upgrade (and thanks to those responded!), not to see if I should take professional track lessons to learn how to drive and "feel" the car professionally or even semi-professionally.

I just want to see that, from the experience of the people who has it, IF THAT $1000 upgrade on the sways, control arms, etc is WORTH the money, for an average joe!


But thanks for the lessons.

Kevin, yea, its a long summer and I'm not in a hurry. Hopefully someone starts a GB again on these stuff
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      05-01-2009, 12:59 PM   #33
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Cool! Listen, I break it down like this. Springs and shocks have more of an effect of how the car rides and sway bars effect how flat the car is when cornering.

Shocks and springs DO help in the car staying flatter on turns but the real item you should be looking into is sways.

Of course a total upgrade would raise the limits of you car no doubt.

However, I still stand by my originally statement that only a rear sway should be upgraded (but that is from my experience driving. I should clarify that upgrading just the rear bar will make the car more prone to over-steer. You should be an above average driver to control a car prone to over-steering, that is why most car companies design cars to do the opposite, under-steer - the average driver can handle driving strait into a tree instead of trying to keep the car from spinning.)

Danny


Quote:
Originally Posted by PNF View Post
hey man, by all means and no offense, I think I learned quite a few lessons here and they are very good info. I like to learn. So, thanks for the info, really.

Just that, i was meaning to see if anyone who has installed them enjoyed their upgrade (and thanks to those responded!), not to see if I should take professional track lessons to learn how to drive and "feel" the car professionally or even semi-professionally.

I just want to see that, from the experience of the people who has it, IF THAT $1000 upgrade on the sways, control arms, etc is WORTH the money, for an average joe!


But thanks for the lessons.

Kevin, yea, its a long summer and I'm not in a hurry. Hopefully someone starts a GB again on these stuff
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      05-01-2009, 01:31 PM   #34
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Quote:
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I just want to see that, from the experience of the people who has it, IF THAT $1000 upgrade on the sways, control arms, etc is WORTH the money, for an average joe! l
personally, i don't think so. those parts don't change the look of the car and the 'average joe' on the street never drives anywhere close to the point when those parts actually matters.

and i wouldn't change the rear bar in isolation. a car that feels like it wants to rotate quickly at low speeds on the street will be terrifying to drive on the track. the key benefit of the way our car is setup is that you can be back on the throttle pretty early in the corner and if you have a car that is oversteer happy you lose that benefit. you will also crap yourself when you hit a bump midcorner with the suspension loaded up.
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      05-01-2009, 05:12 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PNF View Post
I am somewhat confused, but I think your entire post literally comes down to

1) Track my car
2) Then i will find out how well my car can perform stock
3) Then i can decide whether I need to upgrade.

Correct?
That's it in a nutshell, yes. You will corner way harder/faster with just a few track days under your belt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PNF View Post
2) Parts upgrade does not really matter to me, because I dont know how well my car performs in stock form anyway, what possibly the difference I can make?
The parts will definitely make the car feel... different. Wether or not it will make the car perform noticably better is negligible. You didn't know what it could really do before, so what would you be able to compare it to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PNF View Post
I'm lost here. You said I dont want to improve the cars handling? Did you arrive that conclusion because I have a lowered car, or because i never tracked my car "yet", or because I have not taken a professional tracking lesson??
I arrived at that conclusion (not improving the cars handling) by reading the original post. You stated that yourself. If you were merely asking what parts will improve the handling, it didn't come across that way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PNF View Post
Man, I just asked a simple question of if sway/strut bars/brace improves the handling of a car. Simple recommendation can be "yes", or "no"...
You bet they can!! But you'll really only notice the difference when pushing the car extremely hard. I base all that I say on past experiences, so don't take my posts the wrong way. Not trying to be a hater.

I see it time and time again where guys show up to their first track school and they have done EVERYTHING they can to their car. They go out thinking they will run pretty well and they are at the back of the pack. Literally. Super fast car, crazy HP, full suspension, big brakes, and yet they can barely run with the guy in the bone stock GTI. It happens, I know first hand. Guys would always come up after a session and ask to see what I've done to my Si. They'd walk away scratching their heads when they see I only had a set of Hawk Blue brake pads on the front and NOTHING ELSE!!!!

As I stated before, if you're a guy that just likes to upgrade without the intent of every taking your car to the track that's more than cool in my book. Been there, done that too. But if your seriously trying to make your car perform better in turns, don't listen to the SupremePower guy just trying to sell you parts. Well, at least not until after you hit the track.

Good luck with whatever route you choose!!
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      05-01-2009, 05:33 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowcruzr View Post
That's it in a nutshell, yes. You will corner way harder/faster with just a few track days under your belt.



The parts will definitely make the car feel... different. Wether or not it will make the car perform noticably better is negligible. You didn't know what it could really do before, so what would you be able to compare it to.



I arrived at that conclusion (not improving the cars handling) by reading the original post. You stated that yourself. If you were merely asking what parts will improve the handling, it didn't come across that way.



You bet they can!! But you'll really only notice the difference when pushing the car extremely hard. I base all that I say on past experiences, so don't take my posts the wrong way. Not trying to be a hater.

I see it time and time again where guys show up to their first track school and they have done EVERYTHING they can to their car. They go out thinking they will run pretty well and they are at the back of the pack. Literally. Super fast car, crazy HP, full suspension, big brakes, and yet they can barely run with the guy in the bone stock GTI. It happens, I know first hand. Guys would always come up after a session and ask to see what I've done to my Si. They'd walk away scratching their heads when they see I only had a set of Hawk Blue brake pads on the front and NOTHING ELSE!!!!

As I stated before, if you're a guy that just likes to upgrade without the intent of every taking your car to the track that's more than cool in my book. Been there, done that too. But if your seriously trying to make your car perform better in turns, don't listen to the SupremePower guy just trying to sell you parts. Well, at least not until after you hit the track.

Good luck with whatever route you choose!!

I just deleted a big post.. and then thinking... what the heck am I doing responding to you. We obviously have our differences and I just want to spend my money how I like it?

But for the record,

These SP guys didnt try to sell me anything in any way. Hell, their advice are pretty helpful and they "actually" have what I want installed on their own cars and they are speaking from their own experience. It is not like they are "selling" soemthing that they themselves dont even own or installed on their own cars.

Actually, I didnt even buy my coilovers from them and I got them from another vendor (no offense, SP, lol, u guys were great still)

PS. Nice civic you have there. That reminds me of my old days when I was 16 envying those people who were rich enough to blow their money on cars.
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      05-01-2009, 05:57 PM   #37
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Whoa!!! I'm not hating on the SP guys at all. I am only suggesting hitting the track. That's it. THEN pick up parts from SP. . Sounds like you already kow they are the guys you'd want to go with based on the knowledge they have. It goes without saying that you should totally do whatever you think is right for you, your budget, and your time. FWIW, many of my friends have a much bigger appreciation for the parts they ended up buying after a track day or two.

I just bought my 335 in Feb and can't wait for track days to get under way here in NY. I'll buy race pads for the front and hit the track sans upgrades as I did with my Si back in 99. Since then the SI has gotten sways, strut tower bars, Koni dual adj. coil-overs, and Hoosier race slicks. I still have my Si in the barn as I can't get rid of something that's that much fun in the twisties. Guys at the track hate reading my plate as I go by...
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      05-01-2009, 06:01 PM   #38
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OP funny thing about car setup is that it is highly dependent on the user's driving style, experience level, type of driving etc

what is 'great' for one person might be not suit another person. the other forum posters are just trying to save you some money by suggesting you get enough experience to be able to evaluate the components on your own and make your own setup choices

i forget who but someone told me that "if you have to ask if it will make the car faster don't bother getting it" because either a) it doesn't work b) you don't know enough to tell the difference or c) a little bit of both
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      05-01-2009, 06:05 PM   #39
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+1
You're a pretty smart fella Nick!! I have a book you may be interested in...
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Mods |Painted Kidneys|Black Lower Mesh Grills|Rho-plate|7500 GP Fogs|JB3 2.0|LED Tag Lights|Rear Fogs|And maybe some day an M3 Rear Spoiler|
Lowcruzr is offline   United_States
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      05-01-2009, 06:58 PM   #40
nicknaz
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Drives: 2012 Z4 35i
Join Date: May 2008
Location: San Diego CA

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowcruzr View Post
+1
You're a pretty smart fella Nick!! I have a book you may be interested in...
PM me the details

I need to get smarter on car setup (so i can find something other than track days to spend money on.... )

EDIT: your first 335 mod is likely to be a larger oil cooler or diagnosis time to figure out why the car is going into limp mode.. (check track forum for more details)
nicknaz is offline   United_States
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