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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > JB3 1.3 versus Procede CANbus (Rematch Review)



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      05-20-2009, 11:02 PM   #23
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oh boy, here we go
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      05-20-2009, 11:10 PM   #24
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I am hopefully upgrading to 1.3 soon i have a boost gauge will post as soon as possible
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      05-20-2009, 11:15 PM   #25
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What boost were the various maps running? Sounds like the latest JB3 maps are boosting a bit higher
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      05-20-2009, 11:20 PM   #26
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Kelvin... great review! Thanks for highlighting the pros for both tunes. JB3 1.3 sounds like a winner so far... can't wait to see your dynos and real world observations.
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      05-20-2009, 11:33 PM   #27
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I like how USC335 states the supposed timing difference between the two tunes then admonishes us for even attempting to discount it by 'not even going there'.

Why don't you make your own thread and Torque Target your ass out of this one.
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      05-20-2009, 11:36 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coldasicex5 View Post
lol, a JB3 does very good, then someone posts about Vishnu's "timing, datalogging, flux capicitation" as its only defense.. typical..
Before you get all defensive, you might actually try to understand what I wrote. I think the analysis is pretty objective. I am a very analytical person and I always want to know why something does what it does. For example, taking steroids makes you stronger and play better, but ... Never mind. Just enjoy your JB3 and be happy
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      05-21-2009, 12:01 AM   #29
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I know your review focused on performance but price has to be considered as an additional key factor in choosing any product.

In this case, the JB3 wins the value comparison - Especially now that the JB3 also offers a variety of easily selectable maps.
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      05-21-2009, 12:23 AM   #30
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thanks for the review.
its always nice to get a fellow tuners honest opinion
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      05-21-2009, 01:11 AM   #31
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nice review!
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      05-21-2009, 01:15 AM   #32
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Hate to be a pessimist, but I think we are now in uncomfortable territory.

Might have to swallow my words later, but based on what you guys been seeing recently, is it a stretch to think maybe the developments have moved a little too fast of late?

Regardless of what tune you have, safety should be paramount. Its a $45K we are talking about. Sooner or later one of these tunes will go booom~! GAMEOVER for the tuner who does that first. Paying public beware. Competion and one-up manship is entertaining, but sooner or later someone will be pushed to take a few too many risks and find the limits of the N54. I just hope the tuners are putting the community's cars safety in mind with each of their iterations. Sometimes being on the bleeding edge might result in real bleeding.
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      05-21-2009, 01:15 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David 12 View Post
I know your review focused on performance but price has to be considered as an additional key factor in choosing any product.

In this case, the JB3 wins the value comparison - Especially now that the JB3 also offers a variety of easily selectable maps.
You forgot the price of the BT cable $279 and chip burner $50 you would want to buy. Thats alot closer in price now. I would never buy the JB3 without the BT to remove codes.
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      05-21-2009, 01:51 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SLV335I View Post
You forgot the price of the BT cable $279 and chip burner $50 you would want to buy. Thats alot closer in price now. I would never buy the JB3 without the BT to remove codes.
Considering you can't use the BT tool and Canbus at the same time - it seems like you need to add the BT tool to the PROcede package as well if you want to have 100% assurance of no codes when going into the dealership.

And if you are really cost-conscious, the JB3 pin-out version is $379 for the exact same functionality (unlike PROcede lite vs. race remember that?)

Since you are comparing prices - you need to add the full price for upgrades Vishnu makes you pay while BMS has a 100% trade-up program towards any upgrade. Add up V1 to V3 Rev II and then JB1 to JB3 and $279 for the BT becomes small potatoes.
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      05-21-2009, 02:08 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usc335 View Post
Before you get all defensive, you might actually try to understand what I wrote. I think the analysis is pretty objective. I am a very analytical person and I always want to know why something does what it does. For example, taking steroids makes you stronger and play better, but ... Never mind. Just enjoy your JB3 and be happy
This is a cut and paste from a different thread in which hotrod states:

Quote:
I think you might be exaggerating the boost level on the JB3. I mean I just did some runs on map #7 (8D Rev4), 91 octane, and peak boost (including shift spikes) was only 14.1 psi. I think map #3 is pretty mild in comparison.

Okay, here is map#6 on 91 octane. Look at how mild the boost is.
Even the shift spikes don't hit 14psi. So again, what do you expect comparing their flash to map #3.




another run on map#6

So it's safe to assume that the JB3 isn't overly boosting more than the recommended 15psi right? And I don't know much about the whole Scalbert's timing experiment or whatever, but wasn't the conclusion on that that both tunes didn't control timing? Scalbert never finished his experiment or something.
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      05-21-2009, 03:25 AM   #36
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Mote, i understand it pulls harder.. how consistent is it?
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      05-21-2009, 03:54 AM   #37
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      05-21-2009, 04:12 AM   #38
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cant wait to get the JB3 installed..
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      05-21-2009, 04:21 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usc335 View Post
First off, kudos to Burger Motorsports for developing and improving their tune. It's obviously no coincidence that both Vishnu (PROcede) and Burger Motorsports (JBS) are making advances after the BT Tool was released. However, both are going in slightly different directions. Burger is using the BT Tool to develop their "static" maps using the datalogging features of the BT Tool to catch up to the PROcede. Vishnu is doing the same except they already had (limited) datalogging capabilities, but the BT Tool enhanced that. Vishnu is going in the direction of actively reading the data from the CANbus to create "dynamic" maps.

So, how do we make power and how is each tuner making power. The four basic components are air, fuel, ignition timing, and boost.
(1) Now air is the same for both tunes.
(2) I assume both tuners are monkeying around with fuel now that codes can be cleared. So there's an opportunity to make some power.
(3) Now, we know from Scalbert's testing that the PROcede controls timing and the JB3 does not (I do not mean to start another discussion on timing control, so please don't anyone else go there). All thing being equal, more timing equals more power. The PROcede is pulling timing for safety while the JB3 is relying on the factory knock algorithms to control timing. Again we can debate the merits of timing control and the factory DME, but I believe the JB3 will run closer to the knock limit (hitting it more frequently than the PROcede) so it will make more power. I, personally, prefer a tune that controls timing and does not rely on the factory DME since we are running almost twice the amount of boost with a tune. I own my car and intend to keep it a while so I'm willing to sacrifice some power for engine longevity.
(4) That leads us to boost. How much boost are both tunes running at different load and rpm conditions? You can do this by watching your boost gauge, but that's difficult to analyze real-time or you can log it. The PROcede can log boost (yes, I know, it's not in the manifold, but it's close) so we can see what it does. Let's take a look at my boost logs:

What is interesting to note is that Vishnu dropped the boost levels (at least Stage 1 anyways) on the CANbus beta maps yet most of us running it feel that the tune is stronger (that boost spike with the 2-19 Stage 1 map was due to a throttle closure that I discussed in another thread). My guess is that Vishnu dropped the boost during development of the CANbus maps for safety reasons (again, my guess is that the boost will go back up once the CANbus maps are fine tuned). I don't want to get into what safe boost levels are, but I'm always one to sacrifice some power for safety. I could get into pressure ratios and the like (and how quickly things can go bad with just relatively small amounts of increased boost), but that's for another time.

To make a long story short, my hypothesis is that the JB3 1.3 beta is running more boost than the PROcede CANbus beta maps and that is why the JB3 feels stronger right now. Anyone have any datalogs of actual boost to prove or disprove this? And no, the BT tool cannot do this because it will only show what the piggybacks are telling the DME the boost is (I'm not sure how the JB3 guys log boost -- this is not a slam, I really don't know. My boost gauge can record and replay, but I can't export it).
Comments anyone?
It is very fair of you to question this, but I can tell you after monitoring boost a whole lot that the JB3 1.3 is simply is not boosting higher. It is more stable on 1.3 than I have ever seen on any of the JB3 maps I have tested. There is no in between or tip-in boost spikes either. My boost has been almost identical to what you have on your graph except of course the drop around 4k rpms. It is hands down the best work Terry has done.
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      05-21-2009, 05:52 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usc335 View Post
All thing being equal, more timing equals more power. The PROcede is pulling timing for safety while the JB3 is relying on the factory knock algorithms to control timing. Again we can debate the merits of timing control and the factory DME, but I believe the JB3 will run closer to the knock limit (hitting it more frequently than the PROcede) so it will make more power.
I take no offense in your post and while I don't think the boost in the JB3 1.3 is peaking higher than the Procede CANbus, I do agree with some of your thoughts and did come to a similar conclusion (your quote above seems perfectly logical to me though the "safety and timing" part is another thread all together)...

Last edited by Kelvin1000; 05-21-2009 at 07:47 AM.
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      05-21-2009, 06:19 AM   #41
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Great, in detail review!! Glad your happy with it man. Should feel what this is all about at the end of the week

Let's not steer off topic guys.. USC335 please make a thread for your thoughts as they seem to be in detail and might better answered on there own thread.
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      05-21-2009, 08:20 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5soko335i View Post
Great, in detail review!! Glad your happy with it man. Should feel what this is all about at the end of the week

Let's not steer off topic guys.. USC335 please make a thread for your thoughts as they seem to be in detail and might better answered on there own thread.
+1

Its been very refreshing as there have been no real tuner wars in the last few weeks and discussions have progressed nicely. Even this thread is being rather civil which is great and I am sure the whole community appreciates it.

As to some of the discussions about boost levels. I have been involved heavilly in the 1.3 development/testing and have seen the 1.3 progress along the 25 beta versions I have tested (yes my burner is getting a workout). 1.3 isn't about boost, isn't about the bleeding edge, but its a refinement of power delivery and a fusion of raw power and silky smoothness, which now I believe sets the JB3 apart from the rest. Your impressions may vary but the 1.3 really speaks for itself now.

Mike
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      05-21-2009, 08:39 AM   #43
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So, from what I understand so far... the JB3 is apparently pulling harder up top yet still running the same boost as Procede? The difference being that JB3 isn't pulling timing up top like the Procede is? Is that correct or did I miss something?

Curious about AFR, EGT, etc. as well
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      05-21-2009, 09:12 AM   #44
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Map 6 on 1.3 is the bomb. Good work T.

Reduced lag at driveaway from idle. Good pin your A* back in the seat at low speed.

And no burner required. Just send the old chips back to T and he will ship you a 1.3 chip.

Nice to have a little kicker every few months when the car start seeming a little slow

Oh damn, this was from a ride in a friends 335 - not mine.
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