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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > JB3 1.3 versus Procede CANbus (Rematch Review)



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      05-21-2009, 09:13 AM   #45
Kelvin1000
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One of may considerations but yes, I believe timing is more aggressive on the JB3 though I have beat the crap out of it and see no codes or knock activity of any kind (even in the God awful weather with no mods).
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      05-21-2009, 09:16 AM   #46
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Kelvin, how would you say the JB3 Map 5 compare to the Canbus stage 2? We know Map 7 feels stronger, but is Map 5 stronger as well?
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      05-21-2009, 09:37 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by GAaaAR View Post
Kelvin, how would you say the JB3 Map 5 compare to the Canbus stage 2? We know Map 7 feels stronger, but is Map 5 stronger as well?
Yes both are clearly stronger by a significant margin. Map 5 is comparable to Stage 1 and Map 7 to Stage 2.

I would say a 7 - 12 whp difference in power for me even without additional mods by moving up from Stage 1 to Stage 2 (dyno tested)
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      05-21-2009, 09:44 AM   #48
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kelvin you said you're gonna get back to the dyno? I forgot, did you do dyno testing with the latest canbus maps?
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      05-21-2009, 09:58 AM   #49
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Yes, I will go back to the dyno for further testing and hopefully once again after installing an Intercooler and downpipes... Its time.
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      05-21-2009, 10:07 AM   #50
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Yes, I will go back to the dyno for further testing and hopefully once again after installing an Intercooler and downpipes... Its time.

Too much money spent on dynos and not enough spent on track days.

Kelvin you must get your BMW software updated to 33.1+. You'll have no need for a "lag-fix".
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      05-21-2009, 10:11 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by usc335 View Post
First off, kudos to Burger Motorsports for developing and improving their tune. It's obviously no coincidence that both Vishnu (PROcede) and Burger Motorsports (JBS) are making advances after the BT Tool was released. However, both are going in slightly different directions. Burger is using the BT Tool to develop their "static" maps using the datalogging features of the BT Tool to catch up to the PROcede. Vishnu is doing the same except they already had (limited) datalogging capabilities, but the BT Tool enhanced that. Vishnu is going in the direction of actively reading the data from the CANbus to create "dynamic" maps.

So, how do we make power and how is each tuner making power. The four basic components are air, fuel, ignition timing, and boost.
(1) Now air is the same for both tunes.
(2) I assume both tuners are monkeying around with fuel now that codes can be cleared. So there's an opportunity to make some power.
(3) Now, we know from Scalbert's testing that the PROcede controls timing and the JB3 does not (I do not mean to start another discussion on timing control, so please don't anyone else go there). All thing being equal, more timing equals more power. The PROcede is pulling timing for safety while the JB3 is relying on the factory knock algorithms to control timing. Again we can debate the merits of timing control and the factory DME, but I believe the JB3 will run closer to the knock limit (hitting it more frequently than the PROcede) so it will make more power. I, personally, prefer a tune that controls timing and does not rely on the factory DME since we are running almost twice the amount of boost with a tune. I own my car and intend to keep it a while so I'm willing to sacrifice some power for engine longevity.
(4) That leads us to boost. How much boost are both tunes running at different load and rpm conditions? You can do this by watching your boost gauge, but that's difficult to analyze real-time or you can log it. The PROcede can log boost (yes, I know, it's not in the manifold, but it's close) so we can see what it does. Let's take a look at my boost logs:

What is interesting to note is that Vishnu dropped the boost levels (at least Stage 1 anyways) on the CANbus beta maps yet most of us running it feel that the tune is stronger (that boost spike with the 2-19 Stage 1 map was due to a throttle closure that I discussed in another thread). My guess is that Vishnu dropped the boost during development of the CANbus maps for safety reasons (again, my guess is that the boost will go back up once the CANbus maps are fine tuned). I don't want to get into what safe boost levels are, but I'm always one to sacrifice some power for safety. I could get into pressure ratios and the like (and how quickly things can go bad with just relatively small amounts of increased boost), but that's for another time.

To make a long story short, my hypothesis is that the JB3 1.3 beta is running more boost than the PROcede CANbus beta maps and that is why the JB3 feels stronger right now. Anyone have any datalogs of actual boost to prove or disprove this? And no, the BT tool cannot do this because it will only show what the piggybacks are telling the DME the boost is (I'm not sure how the JB3 guys log boost -- this is not a slam, I really don't know. My boost gauge can record and replay, but I can't export it).
Comments anyone?

Im gonna have to slightly disagree with you on a few points here (I have Procede too):

1. riding the knock limit doesn't always make more power, as you can see when the car pulls timing due to knock it overcompensates on how much it pulls out and then will put some back in. This could lead to a loss in power as too much timing will be pulled, unnecessarily. It's hard to say overall which is better for power - not staying close to the knock limit or hitting it and dipping down repeatively.

2. more boost definitely does not equal more power. Timing seems to play a much more critical role in the car. I have deduced this from the 100s of drag strip passes I have made. Turning up the boost can definitely lose power as timing is being pulled. I think the JB is running less boost up top, at least that is what I gathered when I raced Brianhn1. Granted I was on an old stage 3 race gas map (I'm stage 1, non-canbus) so this is prob not a fair comparison, but I was holding boost to redline and his car was dropping boost from 17 to 13 psi. I was holding about 16. I'm sure my car was pulling massive timing up high, causing my trap speeds to be lower. (I did trap the same as him one pass, but my car was inconsistent. I think that shows the car pulls timing sometimes, and that one time didn't even though I held boost to redline).

I'm not arguing which one I think is better, I drive with the Procede, probably always will. I just wanted to give an alternative perspective to what you said.
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      05-21-2009, 10:19 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Kelvin1000 View Post
Yes both are clearly stronger by a significant margin. Map 5 is comparable to Stage 1 and Map 7 to Stage 2.
Stage 1 is the base Procede tune with boost of 13-14 psi stated by the tuner.

JB Maps 2/3 are probably the equivalent maps with 12-14 psi stated by the tuner.

Map 5 is significantly stronger than stage 1 and IMHO more comparable to Stage 2 than Stage 1

But regardless, Maps 4/5 do pull harder in the top end than Procede stage 2 based on my recent driving experience of both.

However, as stated by others, both tunes are very good at what they do and are approaching each other in some ways, yet retaining their essential character at the same time.

JB3 is about power and fun factor while Procede is about driveability and retaining the fundamental characteristics of the N54.

Just depends on which part of the rpm power band you spend the most time in.
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      05-21-2009, 10:21 AM   #53
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Sounds like those who have both formats are able to stay cutting edge just by switching.
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      05-21-2009, 10:39 AM   #54
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Kelvin, what user torque settings did you use for the canbus maps. On stage 1 and stage 2. Im curious. Im ordering a jb3 today but Im worried about selling the procede (it would really help) because they could come out with stronger maps soon or maybe not. Im running stage 1 at a ut of 74 and 78. The 78 is really strong and smooth but apparently jb3 is just a more powerful tune.I'll find out in a week. my decision is keep the procede and the jb3 or sell procede and fully switch (more funds to get all the jb3 goodies). Will procede strike back or no?????
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      05-21-2009, 10:45 AM   #55
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i'd wait until the next update fotios, it sounds like there is a big one coming soon
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      05-21-2009, 10:51 AM   #56
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i'd wait until the next update fotios, it sounds like there is a big one coming soon
thats what Im thinking. Its tough though. I hope the next one gets a bit stronger. I know the procede can do more. Like I said at ut 78 on stage 1 its running awesome. I just want a bit more bite.
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      05-21-2009, 10:52 AM   #57
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Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubbles View Post
Too much money spent on dynos and not enough spent on track days.

Kelvin you must get your BMW software updated to 33.1+. You'll have no need for a "lag-fix".
I am at 32.xx and it has no lag either. The JB3 "Lag Fix" for me just = more boost down low.

I agree on the track stuff and will be ready soon... I bought a Bell Helmet exactly 2 weeks ago but I want at least the intercooler installed before I go play with you big boys in the summer heat.

Track tires and a second job are next.
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      05-21-2009, 10:53 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Kelvin1000 View Post
Yes both are clearly stronger by a significant margin. Map 5 is comparable to Stage 1 and Map 7 to Stage 2.

I would say a 7 - 12 whp difference in power for me even without additional mods by moving up from Stage 1 to Stage 2 (dyno tested)
So Map 5 is slower than Stage 2?
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      05-21-2009, 11:00 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1000 View Post
I am at 32.xx and it has no lag either. The JB3 "Lag Fix" for me just = more boost down low.

I agree on the track stuff and will be ready soon... I bought a Bell Helmet exactly 2 weeks ago but I want at least the intercooler installed before I go play with you big boys in the summer heat.

Track tires and a second job are next.

I would still get 33.1, it's different regarding wastgate operation.

Trust me, you won't need the intercooler for your first few times out.

Get yourself a set of cheap kosei 17s and throw Dunlops stars street tires.

Wait for VKs $500 I/C.
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      05-21-2009, 11:03 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fotios335i View Post
Kelvin, what user torque settings did you use for the canbus maps. On stage 1 and stage 2. Im curious. Im ordering a jb3 today but Im worried about selling the procede (it would really help) because they could come out with stronger maps soon or maybe not. Im running stage 1 at a ut of 74 and 78. The 78 is really strong and smooth but apparently jb3 is just a more powerful tune.I'll find out in a week. my decision is keep the procede and the jb3 or sell procede and fully switch (more funds to get all the jb3 goodies). Will procede strike back or no?????
I was already pushing it by runing Stage 1 and 2 with no big mods so I always left UT alone (as per Shiv).

I think both tunes are great and I know that one of the future adjustable parameter that Shiv is working on is Active Timing user adjustments which means that you will be able to turn it down and let the DME adjust closer to the knock limit and go for dyno, street and track glory.

As it stands now, the JB3 is simply faster. Race them side by side and I am confident this will be confirmed over and over.
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      05-21-2009, 11:04 AM   #61
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Wait for VKs $500 I/C.
Sounds like my price point.
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      05-21-2009, 11:05 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GAaaAR View Post
So Map 5 is slower than Stage 2?
No, Stage 2 has that much more than Stage 1 (Procede)

The same probably holds true for Map 7 vs Map 5 (JB3)

There are other factors like IAT decay, less boost taper at high RPMs, etc...
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      05-21-2009, 11:06 AM   #63
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thats what Im thinking. Its tough though. I hope the next one gets a bit stronger. I know the procede can do more. Like I said at ut 78 on stage 1 its running awesome. I just want a bit more bite.
you need a ride in my canbus stage 3 car
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      05-21-2009, 11:07 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1000 View Post
I was already pushing it by runing Stage 1 and 2 with no big mods so I always left UT alone (as per Shiv).

I think both tunes are great and I know that one of the future adjustable parameter that Shiv is working on is Active Timing user adjustments which means that you will be able to turn it down and let the DME adjust closer to the knock limit and go for dyno, street and track glory.

As it stands now, the JB3 is simply faster. Race them side by side and I am confident this will be confirmed over and over.
stage 1 with dci isnt pushing it at all. I always run 93 and raising th UT always yields stronger pulls for me. Im curious about stage 2 with default UT.
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      05-21-2009, 11:08 AM   #65
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Quote:
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you need a ride in my canbus stage 3 car
I know, it seems the higher modded cars/maps are worked on more. thats what shiv tests them on so..I would love to feel the difference.
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      05-21-2009, 11:09 AM   #66
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Sounds like my price point.

Judging from Vk's oil cooler, which is sitting in my garage, quality isn't sacrificed. Some vendors could learn a thing or 2 from Vince's business practices. He is a pleasure to deal with.
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