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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Technical Forums > Wash, Wax, Detailing and Cosmetic protection/repairs > Buff marks...



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      08-10-2006, 07:43 AM   #1
kpn111
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Buff marks...

So as you may know, I just had the car repaired. When they re-installed a new right fender, there were some dust particles and they buffed most of it out. Now the problem is that I can see that that panel has been buffed. The shop said that I should wait two weeks before waxing the car. Is there a way to get the buff marks out now or do I just have to wait 2 weeks???
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      08-10-2006, 08:51 AM   #2
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The wait is to allow the paint to properly dry before sealing it, though 2 weeks seems a buit short.

There shouldnt be any marks if they buffed/polished it properly.

Best would be to get a professional detailer look at it or to take it back to the shop that did the work.
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      08-10-2006, 08:57 AM   #3
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I just called the shop and the guy told me there shouldn't be any buff marks. Apparently, they didn't use a swirl remover after they buffed it. I'm going back on Monday to get it removed...This is such a pain in my ass.
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      08-10-2006, 11:50 AM   #4
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They had to have buffed it. After the repaint, they need to wetsand the finish to remove the extra globs of clear, orange peel, runs, ect. Unless they have an expert painter, but I really doubt that. Painting without needing correction afterwards is very hard and time consuming. So of course they would ened to wetsand, and in order to remove the sanding marks, compounding and polishing is in order.
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      08-10-2006, 11:56 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JOYRIIDE1113
They had to have buffed it. After the repaint, they need to wetsand the finish to remove the extra globs of clear, orange peel, runs, ect. Unless they have an expert painter, but I really doubt that. Painting without needing correction afterwards is very hard and time consuming. So of course they would ened to wetsand, and in order to remove the sanding marks, compounding and polishing is in order.
They oversprayed it and I had to have it buffed again. However, this time, they didn't get rid of the swirl marks left by the buffing. This will be the 2nd time I go back after picking it up.
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      08-10-2006, 12:34 PM   #6
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They did buff it, with a rotary - the marks you're seeing are called holograms. They need to buff it again with a less abrasive combo of pad and polish and use the rotary correctly to remove them. Of course asking dealers to use a rotary correctly is a whole other story.

Regarding the waxing thing; ask them if the paint was baked. If so, you can probably wax in 2 weeks. If not they're out of their minds (which is probably the case), and you should wait at least 60 days.
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      08-10-2006, 01:26 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kpn111
They oversprayed it and I had to have it buffed again. However, this time, they didn't get rid of the swirl marks left by the buffing. This will be the 2nd time I go back after picking it up.
Aha.. This clears it up..

Heres my take on the crime. lol.


You had to get the section repainted. They painted, sanded, buffed, ect. All seems right? No Marks, halograms, ect.

Well they my friend, as most bodyshops do, used a glaze/filler swirlremover, that may have cleared the sanding marks, but left trails of its own. But unfortunately (heres thr trick), the fillers and oils in the polsih they used hid all the trails. This is only temporary. So of course you did not notice.

You go back, complaining of the overspray, which they addressed many differenct way. Probably claying which requried a wash before. This wash might have cleaned off the oils and fillers revealing the trails and halos.

Or they used a prepsol type product to remove the overspray, which initself, also removed any oils and fillers used to mask "crappy" work...

Thats why the guy said it was wierd because they use a swirl remover.

If they didn't get it right the first time, no point in going back.

If they don't know enough to fix it
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      08-10-2006, 01:54 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by picus
They did buff it, with a rotary - the marks you're seeing are called holograms. They need to buff it again with a less abrasive combo of pad and polish and use the rotary correctly to remove them. Of course asking dealers to use a rotary correctly is a whole other story.

Regarding the waxing thing; ask them if the paint was baked. If so, you can probably wax in 2 weeks. If not they're out of their minds (which is probably the case), and you should wait at least 60 days.
Thanks. I'll ask when I go back on Monday.
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      08-10-2006, 01:56 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JOYRIIDE1113
Aha.. This clears it up..

Heres my take on the crime. lol.


You had to get the section repainted. They painted, sanded, buffed, ect. All seems right? No Marks, halograms, ect.

Well they my friend, as most bodyshops do, used a glaze/filler swirlremover, that may have cleared the sanding marks, but left trails of its own. But unfortunately (heres thr trick), the fillers and oils in the polsih they used hid all the trails. This is only temporary. So of course you did not notice.

You go back, complaining of the overspray, which they addressed many differenct way. Probably claying which requried a wash before. This wash might have cleaned off the oils and fillers revealing the trails and halos.

Or they used a prepsol type product to remove the overspray, which initself, also removed any oils and fillers used to mask "crappy" work...

Thats why the guy said it was wierd because they use a swirl remover.

If they didn't get it right the first time, no point in going back.

If they don't know enough to fix it
Hmm...Right now, I think it will look fine once they get rid of the swirls from buffing out the dust particles that got trapped in the paint. I just want it to look as close to the way it was the day I took delivery of it. It's getting there...I just want to be done with it though.

It was cloudy this afternoon, and I couldn't see the swirl marks. It's only visible when the sun is hitting the panel.
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      08-10-2006, 02:19 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kpn111
Hmm...Right now, I think it will look fine once they get rid of the swirls from buffing out the dust particles that got trapped in the paint. I just want it to look as close to the way it was the day I took delivery of it. It's getting there...I just want to be done with it though.

It was cloudy this afternoon, and I couldn't see the swirl marks. It's only visible when the sun is hitting the panel.
Yep... Those are buffer trails...
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      08-10-2006, 02:32 PM   #11
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In your opinion, will it be difficult to get them out? The shop said it would take only 15-20 minutes. I'm going to stretch it out and say 30-45 minutes. And will it hurt to wait till Monday to get them out?
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      08-10-2006, 03:16 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kpn111
In your opinion, will it be difficult to get them out? The shop said it would take only 15-20 minutes. I'm going to stretch it out and say 30-45 minutes. And will it hurt to wait till Monday to get them out?

I can do it in about 10 minutes, if all it is is trails. But I'm telling you. They are going to use a glaze type swirl remover. I have not met one detailer (in eprson), bodyshop, dealer that knows how to product swirl free results without the use of filler/glazes.

It will look ok and good for maybe 2-3 washes (thats if its a heavy filler too). But you will soon see the trails again...If anything. When they show it to you. Take some 1:1 alcohal/water mix and wipe the area done. If the swirls reappear, proves I was right.

But you never know. They might actually do it right.

I hope Im not bumming you out. Most people learn to live with it. I don't.
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      08-10-2006, 03:42 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JOYRIIDE1113
I can do it in about 10 minutes, if all it is is trails. But I'm telling you. They are going to use a glaze type swirl remover. I have not met one detailer (in eprson), bodyshop, dealer that knows how to product swirl free results without the use of filler/glazes.

It will look ok and good for maybe 2-3 washes (thats if its a heavy filler too). But you will soon see the trails again...If anything. When they show it to you. Take some 1:1 alcohal/water mix and wipe the area done. If the swirls reappear, proves I was right.

But you never know. They might actually do it right.

I hope Im not bumming you out. Most people learn to live with it. I don't.
How would you remove it if the body shop can't? I'm just confused.

I'm going through Lauderdale BMW Collision Center, and I thought that it would be wise since they are supposed to be "BMW Certified." I'll bring an alcohol/water solution with me when I go on Monday and wipe it after they hand the keys over to me.
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      08-10-2006, 05:23 PM   #14
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What he is saying is he would use a PC or a rotary and a polish to *remove* the holograms. Holgrams are just millions of tiny light scratches, so by removing them with a PC or rotary (and not inducing more) you remove the holograms. He is also saying that most dealers and body shops are hacks and will just lather the area in a glaze which will *FILL* the scratches, so they will come back. Odds are he is right; that is what most shops do.

So what you need to do is make sure they are *removing* them, the best way to do this is to be a pain in the butt and tell them you will not accept the car if they've just used a glaze. If you want to really make sure bring a small spray bottle with some alcohol and water (regular rubbing alcohol mixed 50/50 with water) as suggested; spray the area down when they give you the car back then wipe it off with a soft mf cloth - if you see the marks again they used a glaze, if not then odds are they are gone.

It isn't that they are hard to remove, most holograms can be removed with a light polish is a matter of minutes - it's that the guys at shops don't *know* how to do it, they just know how to heavily compound to remove deep gashes, then glaze to cover up their holograms.

As an aside, not all detailers use glazes.
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      08-10-2006, 07:16 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by picus
What he is saying is he would use a PC or a rotary and a polish to *remove* the holograms. Holgrams are just millions of tiny light scratches, so by removing them with a PC or rotary (and not inducing more) you remove the holograms. He is also saying that most dealers and body shops are hacks and will just lather the area in a glaze which will *FILL* the scratches, so they will come back. Odds are he is right; that is what most shops do.

So what you need to do is make sure they are *removing* them, the best way to do this is to be a pain in the butt and tell them you will not accept the car if they've just used a glaze. If you want to really make sure bring a small spray bottle with some alcohol and water (regular rubbing alcohol mixed 50/50 with water) as suggested; spray the area down when they give you the car back then wipe it off with a soft mf cloth - if you see the marks again they used a glaze, if not then odds are they are gone.

It isn't that they are hard to remove, most holograms can be removed with a light polish is a matter of minutes - it's that the guys at shops don't *know* how to do it, they just know how to heavily compound to remove deep gashes, then glaze to cover up their holograms.

As an aside, not all detailers use glazes.
Thanks for the detail!

So when I go back on Monday, I should tell them not to just fill in the holograms with glaze...Use a rotary with polish instead to remove them. Is that right?

I'll definitely be bringing a solution with me to check out the work once I get it back.
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      08-10-2006, 07:19 PM   #16
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Another dumb question...Would the holograms come out if I use a rubbing compound, such as 3M, by hand?
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      08-10-2006, 07:38 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kpn111
So as you may know, I just had the car repaired. When they re-installed a new right fender, there were some dust particles and they buffed most of it out. Now the problem is that I can see that that panel has been buffed. The shop said that I should wait two weeks before waxing the car. Is there a way to get the buff marks out now or do I just have to wait 2 weeks???
that happened to me...just add a layer of wax...the NXT is awesome. It hides scratches on dark color cars. So it's perfect. Take my word for it..i was surprised myself
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      08-10-2006, 07:55 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kpn111
Another dumb question...Would the holograms come out if I use a rubbing compound, such as 3M, by hand?
If they are not deep then yes, it is likely they would. Be careful with that though, 3M rubbing compound is rather aggressive and can cause some hazing, which would just make the problem worse.
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      08-10-2006, 08:01 PM   #19
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If they are not deep then yes, it is likely they would. Be careful with that though, 3M rubbing compound is rather aggressive and can cause some hazing, which would just make the problem worse.
Really? I used 3M rubbing compound on some grease that was on my hood and it was okay. Is there another type you would suggest that I could pick up at the auto parts store?

Another question...is it safe to use the rubbing compound now or do I still need to wait 2 weeks (if the paint was baked, which I need to ask them) or 60 days?

Thanks for your help!
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      08-10-2006, 08:02 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e90fanatic
that happened to me...just add a layer of wax...the NXT is awesome. It hides scratches on dark color cars. So it's perfect. Take my word for it..i was surprised myself
NXT...Zaino, right?

On a side note, I'd like to remove the scratches if possible...not just conceal them.
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      08-10-2006, 09:42 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kpn111
Really? I used 3M rubbing compound on some grease that was on my hood and it was okay. Is there another type you would suggest that I could pick up at the auto parts store?

Another question...is it safe to use the rubbing compound now or do I still need to wait 2 weeks (if the paint was baked, which I need to ask them) or 60 days?

Thanks for your help!
Try the 3M, if it works you're golden. If it doesn't you likely need machine buffing to remove the holograms. If you get any hazing you can always go out and grab a tube of ScratchX to remove it.

And yes, using polishes is ok on curing paint; you just don't want to use anything with excessive silicone or seal/wax it.
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      08-10-2006, 09:48 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by picus
Try the 3M, if it works you're golden. If it doesn't you likely need machine buffing to remove the holograms. If you get any hazing you can always go out and grab a tube of ScratchX to remove it.

And yes, using polishes is ok on curing paint; you just don't want to use anything with excessive silicone or seal/wax it.
Awesome...I'll give the shop a chance to make things right on Monday. Otherwise, I'll make it a DIY job. Thanks for your help!
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