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      08-11-2006, 02:11 PM   #23
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the rules are probably permanent but they only apply to carry on baggage.
correct, so you girlie can still bring your shampoos and hair sprays and perfumes...
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      08-11-2006, 03:13 PM   #24
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      08-11-2006, 03:41 PM   #25
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UK, or US, many of them will never full integrate. Its pathetic. Leave their countries due to political oppression, then move to a better foreign land where they choose to, by their own accord, remain foreigners. Biting the hand that feeds them is so damn low.

Last month in India, now this. Is there any part of the world where they DO get along with everyone? I have yet to see it. Russia, Indonesia, Phillipines, China, Spain, Italy, Macedonia, US, India, UK, Austrailia, you name it.
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      08-11-2006, 04:18 PM   #26
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Man i hope i dont open my luggage to find all my clothes covered in shampoo and face wash.
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      08-11-2006, 04:39 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tl_boy
Is there any part of the world where they DO get along with everyone?
maybe a few. mostly where they came from.

but even in the countries where they came from they do some kind of terrorism.
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      08-11-2006, 04:48 PM   #28
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Not even there really. Sunni Vs Shia (Pakistan, Afghanistan, etc.) Sunni Vs. Coptic Christian (Lebanon/Syria, Jordan, etc.) Then you got the Wahabbi's, all messed up..


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Originally Posted by Gearcraft
maybe a few. mostly where they came from.

but even in the countries where they came from they do some kind of terrorism.
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      08-11-2006, 05:55 PM   #29
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i know ppl will hate me for saying this.....but if my family was killed by a US missile/bomb, I would do the same shiet..terrorism or not, is the reality of war
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      08-11-2006, 06:11 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by BellasBmw
Man i hope i dont open my luggage to find all my clothes covered in shampoo and face wash.
lol ziploc! i love those things, i have snack size, normal size, and huge size haha.
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      08-11-2006, 06:40 PM   #31
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      08-11-2006, 09:04 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ska
i know ppl will hate me for saying this.....but if my family was killed by a US missile/bomb, I would do the same shiet..terrorism or not, is the reality of war
Only problem with that equation is that it wasn't their families that were killed. They were mostly ethnic Pakistani, born and/or at least raised in the U.K.. They're connection to the people of Lebanon or Iraq is pretty distant other than both parties being Muslim. Lebanese are mostly shiite muslim, who'm had they been living in Pakistan, for example, would have probably been attacked by these kind of radical Sunni's [presumption that they are sunni, because 90% plus Pakis are).

To attempt to put yourself in their shoes would be degrading yourself. These low lifes are mostly underachieving, confused, low self esteemed losers with little potential for advancement in their lives. A lot of loser Westerners who have no futures and are involved in criminal activity for example turn to Islam. Confusion? Look at the nation of Islam. Made up almost entirely of Western Blacks, yet the Blacks don't realize/come to terms with the fact that Arabs were the first to enslave African Americans, before the Dutch even. They mistakenly believe the structure, sacrifice and discipline of the religion will help straighten their lives. They turn out to be some of the most hardcore fundamentalists. One of the guys arrested for this foiled attack for example was a converted Brit, as was Richard Reid, the notorious and pathetic shoe bomber. Remember that Paki a couple weeks ago who hijacked the Jewish Center in Seattle? If you read up on him, you'd see he had no job [or a pathetic one], no girlfriend, no life. He was a straight up loser. This is not dissimilar to losers like Steven D. Green, the loser soldier druggie from Texas who raped the 14 year old girl in Iraq and killed her family. He was one of those that joined the army looking for something that would allow him to vent his anger. Thats what they are looking for too.

Its not so noble.
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      08-12-2006, 05:37 AM   #33
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I am gonna be screwed now when i fly, cos i take my Ipod and PDA and Laptop on the plane, i am gonna be so bored without them... i don't feel so secure about packing those things in my checked bagage cos of the recent incidents with the australian bagage handlers
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      08-12-2006, 05:57 AM   #34
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The couple of times I was at Heathrow from Schiphol Amsterdam or from Newark in the years back there was ALWAYS A DELAY, what else is new?
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      08-14-2006, 09:48 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tl_boy
Only problem with that equation is that it wasn't their families that were killed. They were mostly ethnic Pakistani, born and/or at least raised in the U.K.. They're connection to the people of Lebanon or Iraq is pretty distant other than both parties being Muslim. Lebanese are mostly shiite muslim, who'm had they been living in Pakistan, for example, would have probably been attacked by these kind of radical Sunni's [presumption that they are sunni, because 90% plus Pakis are).

To attempt to put yourself in their shoes would be degrading yourself. These low lifes are mostly underachieving, confused, low self esteemed losers with little potential for advancement in their lives. A lot of loser Westerners who have no futures and are involved in criminal activity for example turn to Islam. Confusion? Look at the nation of Islam. Made up almost entirely of Western Blacks, yet the Blacks don't realize/come to terms with the fact that Arabs were the first to enslave African Americans, before the Dutch even. They mistakenly believe the structure, sacrifice and discipline of the religion will help straighten their lives. They turn out to be some of the most hardcore fundamentalists. One of the guys arrested for this foiled attack for example was a converted Brit, as was Richard Reid, the notorious and pathetic shoe bomber. Remember that Paki a couple weeks ago who hijacked the Jewish Center in Seattle? If you read up on him, you'd see he had no job [or a pathetic one], no girlfriend, no life. He was a straight up loser. This is not dissimilar to losers like Steven D. Green, the loser soldier druggie from Texas who raped the 14 year old girl in Iraq and killed her family. He was one of those that joined the army looking for something that would allow him to vent his anger. Thats what they are looking for too.

Its not so noble.
You aren't quite right here for a number of reasons.

Firstly paki is a derogatory way to refer to them. British Asians is a better way.

There has been little information about those arrested. Many are of pakistani origin, but were born in the UK. At least one was white and a recent convert to Islam.

What seems clear is that this was an Islamic terrorist cell and that it was linked to and controlled by a group in Pakistan:

http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?se...rld&id=4453517

Like some of the 7th July bombers these guys are not necessarily among lifes losers. Some highly qualified and at least one is a trainee doctor.

Obviously there is something entirely wrong with their psyche for them to consider such apalling acts (assuming that they are in fact guilty).

There is a general view that the radicalisation of young muslims stems from the muslim community in the UK deliberatly segregating itself and also from the tribal system which governs the mosques and the community.

Young muslims are encouraged to set themselves apart from western people (ie the rest of their countrymen) and to follow the muslim faith.

If anything the muslim community is becoming more fundamentalist and less involved with the country as a whole. For instance 20-30 years ago very few muslim women and girls wore the hijab, now almost all do and some even wear burkas, which I find quite unpleasant and at odds with western values.

More and more muslim men wear traditional dress, including the generation which was born here.

The young muslims themselves say that this situation leaves them without an identity, the elders do not understand the impact of withdrawing from wider society and the young have no say within the tribal system that governs the mosques. In fact the majority of Imans do not speak english and have no understanding of the day to day life faced by young muslims.

This situation is exploited by radicals who become the only people who truly involve young muslim men.

Young men are by and large a pretty exitable aggressive bunch and it seems to me that the radicals identify and prey on the most weak-minded and malliable and encourage them into a mindset where these apalling plots make sense.

There is nothing in the muslim faith which would bring someone to commit acts like these, rather the radicalisation is a symptom of the withdrawl and fundamentalism of the muslim community in the UK.

This really crystalised for me when I heard american muslims commenting on the backward and segragated nature of the UK muslim community and the fact that they were demographically poorer and less educated.
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      08-14-2006, 05:20 PM   #36
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      08-14-2006, 06:56 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by needforspeed
You aren't quite right here for a number of reasons.

Firstly paki is a derogatory way to refer to them. British Asians is a better way.
No, "Paki" or "Pakistani" is more correct. British Asians can refer to Indians, Bangladeshis, Nepalese, Afghans, Pakistanis, Indonesians, Malaysians, Koreans, etc. etc. etc...

Quote:
There has been little information about those arrested. Many are of pakistani origin, but were born in the UK. At least one was white and a recent convert to Islam.
As I stated, there were converts. If you look at their names, they are of South Asian Muslim descent, most likely Pakistani. Pakistani Muslim names are different from Arabian or Iranian Muslim names.

Quote:
Like some of the 7th July bombers these guys are not necessarily among lifes losers. Some highly qualified and at least one is a trainee doctor.

Obviously there is something entirely wrong with their psyche for them to consider such apalling acts (assuming that they are in fact guilty).

There is a general view that the radicalisation of young muslims stems from the muslim community in the UK deliberatly segregating itself and also from the tribal system which governs the mosques and the community.
Anyway you look at it, they are losers. The Muslim community in every non-Muslim nation "deliberately segregates itself." There were homegrown terrorists in California, the Paki-stani in Seattle, this happens regardless if they are in the U.K. or the U.S. Muslims believe in forming a Caliphate, or a territory which belongs exclusively to them. Where they can practice there Sharia law and do as they please in the Muslim way. They ALWAYS have a hard time assimilating (with the exception perhaps of some Shiite's like Iranians, who assimilate fairly well).

Quote:
Young muslims are encouraged to set themselves apart from western people (ie the rest of their countrymen) and to follow the muslim faith.
As long as they are encouraged to do this, how can anyone expect them to assimilate and become the fabric of their country? 200 years down the line, are they going to continue to see themselves as Muslims first or Americans, Brits, etc?


Quote:
Young men are by and large a pretty exitable aggressive bunch and it seems to me that the radicals identify and prey on the most weak-minded and malliable and encourage them into a mindset where these apalling plots make sense.
I agree with this.

Quote:
There is nothing in the muslim faith which would bring someone to commit acts like these, rather the radicalisation is a symptom of the withdrawl and fundamentalism of the muslim community in the UK.
Radicalization of Islam has been going on for hundreds of years, it is nothing new. And it is, unfortunately, much more widespread, from Egypt to the entire South Asia including Southeast Asia (Indonesia, Malaysia esp.), Eastern Europe, Western Europe, Northern, everywhere.

Quote:
This really crystalised for me when I heard american muslims commenting on the backward and segragated nature of the UK muslim community and the fact that they were demographically poorer and less educated.
US Muslims are not that far away from there UK counterparts. Many are just as radical and fundamentalist.
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      08-14-2006, 06:58 PM   #38
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And... glad the thread is back. Mods
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      08-14-2006, 09:57 PM   #39
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      08-15-2006, 06:11 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tl_boy
No, "Paki" or "Pakistani" is more correct. British Asians can refer to Indians, Bangladeshis, Nepalese, Afghans, Pakistanis, Indonesians, Malaysians, Koreans, etc. etc. etc...
I think we are on the same page with the exception of the above.

It may be different in the USA, but in the UK it is not simply not acceptable to describe someone as a Paki.

The problem here is that the word became a short-hand way in which to describe anyone who looked South Asian.

At the time this was in prevalent use race relations in the UK were much worse than they are now. Reference race riots and Enoch Powells - rivers of blood speech. Interestingly there was also a great deal of anti-semitism at that time. Thankfully, things have calmed down considerably now.

The issue is that it is not that easy to discern someones racial origin by looking at them. Paki became derogatory because it was mis-used and because it ignored peoples British Status.

So my wife would be correctly described as a British Asian. Her ethnicity is Indian (from the Gujerat) and her religion is Hindu. She was born in Tanzania (part of the commonwealth at that time) and moved to the UK when she was 3. She has had a British passport from birth and her only language is English.

She is also a babe (IMO).

She wears western clothes and visually you would not be able to tell if she was of Indian or Pakistani origin, believe me - she would be offended by the use of the word Paki.

The fact that she was once spat at, called a paki and told to go back where she came from, probably helped to create that view. In fact I was once with her in a shop when a slightly barmy old woman shouted 'out of my way paki' at her ... not nice.

For these reasons using the description Paki in you post will mean that it is read in the wrong light.

The people who were arrested were predominantly British Asian of apparently 'PAKISTANI' origin.

The point I wanted to make, was that although they were clearly among lifes losers (only an easily manipulated and weak minded individual would allow himself to be corrupted into the terrorists mindset), they were not all ill-educated or poor. That distinction is going to be important going forward.

I do agree with you that the deliberate self segregation of muslims (which is actually more cultural than religious) is extremely negative. In fact I think this is the biggest problem, because it causes muslims to split the world into 2 - muslim and non muslim. British Muslims then identify themselves as part of the muslim world instead of British and feel a stronger affinity with the lebanon, iraq and palestine than with people who live in the next street.
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      08-15-2006, 09:21 AM   #41
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Welcome to WWIII. Sorry to say, but true.
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      08-15-2006, 09:34 AM   #42
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According to a British lady I work with, shrewd Brits can tell the difference. The dress, the socio economic status, the habits are different. She did not look favorably upon Pakistanis, but did so upon Indians from what I gather.

In the U.S., there is not really much reference or use of the word "paki." I think though that you are right in that it is offensive (i remember the scene from bend it like beckham). In the U.S. it is not. My use of it was not intended to be derogatory, other than i'm a generally lazy person and found the abbreviated version to result in less typing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by needforspeed
I think we are on the same page with the exception of the above.

It may be different in the USA, but in the UK it is not simply not acceptable to describe someone as a Paki.

The problem here is that the word became a short-hand way in which to describe anyone who looked South Asian.

At the time this was in prevalent use race relations in the UK were much worse than they are now. Reference race riots and Enoch Powells - rivers of blood speech. Interestingly there was also a great deal of anti-semitism at that time. Thankfully, things have calmed down considerably now.

The issue is that it is not that easy to discern someones racial origin by looking at them. Paki became derogatory because it was mis-used and because it ignored peoples British Status.

So my wife would be correctly described as a British Asian. Her ethnicity is Indian (from the Gujerat) and her religion is Hindu. She was born in Tanzania (part of the commonwealth at that time) and moved to the UK when she was 3. She has had a British passport from birth and her only language is English.

She is also a babe (IMO).

She wears western clothes and visually you would not be able to tell if she was of Indian or Pakistani origin, believe me - she would be offended by the use of the word Paki.

The fact that she was once spat at, called a paki and told to go back where she came from, probably helped to create that view. In fact I was once with her in a shop when a slightly barmy old woman shouted 'out of my way paki' at her ... not nice.

For these reasons using the description Paki in you post will mean that it is read in the wrong light.

The people who were arrested were predominantly British Asian of apparently 'PAKISTANI' origin.

The point I wanted to make, was that although they were clearly among lifes losers (only an easily manipulated and weak minded individual would allow himself to be corrupted into the terrorists mindset), they were not all ill-educated or poor. That distinction is going to be important going forward.

I do agree with you that the deliberate self segregation of muslims (which is actually more cultural than religious) is extremely negative. In fact I think this is the biggest problem, because it causes muslims to split the world into 2 - muslim and non muslim. British Muslims then identify themselves as part of the muslim world instead of British and feel a stronger affinity with the lebanon, iraq and palestine than with people who live in the next street.
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      08-15-2006, 10:17 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tl_boy
According to a British lady I work with, shrewd Brits can tell the difference. The dress, the socio economic status, the habits are different. She did not look favorably upon Pakistanis, but did so upon Indians from what I gather.

In the U.S., there is not really much reference or use of the word "paki." I think though that you are right in that it is offensive (i remember the scene from bend it like beckham). In the U.S. it is not. My use of it was not intended to be derogatory, other than i'm a generally lazy person and found the abbreviated version to result in less typing.
Your british friend is right to en extent. Since marrying my wife I have met a lot of Indian people have also spent a lot more time in areas where many South Asians live. Muslims and Hindus do dress differently - if they are in tradiitonal dress, but it can still be confusing - especially if they are in western clothes. Even so you might not recognise people of punjabi or bangladeshi origin.

On that basis it's best (and most polite) not to assume - so British Asian works best unless you are aware of someones ethnicity.

Your point about Indians looking down on Pakistanis is perhaps a fair one. There is racism everywhere and it is relatively common for Indian people to look down on muslims.

There is a particular issue at the moment near us where some Indians are upset that large groups of Somalis have moved into 'their' area. Ironically, I live in a rather more upmarket suburban area (only a few miles away though) where the predominantly white residents are concerned about the influx of wealthy Indians, who are earning good money as lawyers, doctors and accountants.

The scene in Bend it Like Beckham sums it up ... it's not a nice way to refer to people over here .... and in the film the characters are Pujabi Sikhs - like the director Gurinder Chadha - who is married to a Japanese American filmmaker and was born in .... Kenya.

So you see my point that it when it IS used it is generally used in error.
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      08-15-2006, 10:34 AM   #44
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Yeah, I do, but in England, I was thinking in the U.S. context where it is not offensive i think, because it is not used, it is a British term. I wasn't saying the Indians look down on Pakistanis, the British lady I work with is white, the implication from her is that white british society differentiates amongst British's asian society, and looks down upon Pakistanis. As far as dress, I think Muslims are more conservative. I agree with a lot of what you write btw.


Quote:
Originally Posted by needforspeed
Your british friend is right to en extent. Since marrying my wife I have met a lot of Indian people have also spent a lot more time in areas where many South Asians live. Muslims and Hindus do dress differently - if they are in tradiitonal dress, but it can still be confusing - especially if they are in western clothes. Even so you might not recognise people of punjabi or bangladeshi origin.

On that basis it's best (and most polite) not to assume - so British Asian works best unless you are aware of someones ethnicity.

Your point about Indians looking down on Pakistanis is perhaps a fair one. There is racism everywhere and it is relatively common for Indian people to look down on muslims.

There is a particular issue at the moment near us where some Indians are upset that large groups of Somalis have moved into 'their' area. Ironically, I live in a rather more upmarket suburban area (only a few miles away though) where the predominantly white residents are concerned about the influx of wealthy Indians, who are earning good money as lawyers, doctors and accountants.

The scene in Bend it Like Beckham sums it up ... it's not a nice way to refer to people over here .... and in the film the characters are Pujabi Sikhs - like the director Gurinder Chadha - who is married to a Japanese American filmmaker and was born in .... Kenya.

So you see my point that it when it IS used it is generally used in error.
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