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      08-13-2006, 02:23 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by CMD
God bless you, my friend. And congratulations and a sincere heart-felt thank you for serving our country. I don't have anything against you personally.

I was making fun of you for your completely illogical and irrelevant comparison of Illegal Immigration to speeding. Nothing more, nothing less.

Can you explain further how you’ve come to the conclusion that it is NOT Illegal Immigration that bothers me? How and where have I given you that impression!
emphasis on ILLEGAL, get it? Nothing against you personally either, but the comparison is not as irrelevant as you make it seem. People will say, "it is ILLEGAL immigrants that bother me, I have nothing against legal immigrants". What is the difference between the two? Legal vs illegal. Speeding is an illegal action. The point is, immigration is much more complex. You took my initial comment WAY too literally. Peace.
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      08-13-2006, 02:28 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by CMD
You're kidding, you mean to tell me all Mexicans don't look like that? Get out!

The image is only offensive to those that have no recall of history. It's called stereotyping.

And what you are saying, then, is that what is offensive to you is offensive to everybody? Dude, you need to get out more. You're not being objective. Look the word up.

I live with Mexicans and work with Mexicans that find that image HILARIOUS! Just like I do.

Dude, I'm not interested in discussing anything with anyone who cannot even stand to look or hear about any other point of view than theirs. So go away. Please. Leave those of us that can handle it alone. Stop whinning.
Just because it is a stereotype doesn't mean it's not offensive.

Some mexicans may not be offended but many will be.

The last paragraph of your post is just bizzare. The fact that I disagree with you does not mean I cannot handle a reasoned debate or that I am 'whinning' (sic). I would also suggest that your position in this debate is far less objective than mine.

In previous exchanges I have agreed with you that America has a rright to defend it's borders and deal with illegal immigrants to the full extent of the law. So fundamentally I think we have no disagreement.

My difficulty is that you choose to post regular and occasionally offensive articles about the immigration issue, which do nothing to change the facts of the matter and instead just cause offense to other forum members.
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      08-13-2006, 02:28 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by needforspeed
The comparison was not illogical or irrelevant.

You consider illegal immigrants to be 'criminals by default' because they break the law.

Therefore, you must also consider speeders to be 'criminals by default'.

The nub of the question is - why is one crime worse than the other?

You obviously consider illegal immigration to be the bigger problem, but the mother of a child killed by a speeding motorist would probably disagree.
exactly, that is what gives the impression that there is something beyond the legallity of the immigration that bothers you. If that is not your intention then you should be more careful with the way you present your views. It is very easy to misread between the lines. I may be reading more into this than there really is.
Clarification: this is in answer to CMD's comment, not NFS's
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      08-13-2006, 02:38 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by ga-bmwdrvr
I know what you mean. I have been trying to stay out of it too.
Just to give you guys an idea of how this type of thinking easilly gets out of hand, I will give you a personal example.
We had a repairman come to the house to fix a brand new stove that was defective out of the box. My wife, who is puertorican and speaks english with a heavy accent, calls me crying because the guy starts giving her crap and aked her if she was an illegal. Needless to say she kicked his a$$ out of the house and I called GE. They apologized and sent a different repairman the next day.
CMD, immigration is a very complex issue and I, even as a hispanic, have mixed views on the subject. Not all immigrants are bad but, unfortunately, not all are good either. The bad ones ruin it for all. The stereotyping becomes very real. However, many of the complaints about immigrants can be down right ridiculous. You should see the looks we get when my wife and I speak spanish in public. We never do it if an english speakig person is part of the group or conversation. That would be rude. But if I'm having a private conversation with my wife, why should anybody care? The same goes for having a flag on your car or whatever. I myself do not use it and find it a bit silly when I see it, but to each their own. I also do not like any kind of bumper sticker. Anyways, frredom of expression IS part of the american way and they can display their flag if they want. I do not see how the flag is a problem that has anything to do with illegal immigration yet many of these article or satires include it. Thats when it starts crossing the line and you wonder what REALLY bothers these people about immigrants.
I entirely understand ... and this reflects my only difficult with CMD's posts. The illegal immigration situation in the USA is actually quite interesting and clearly the law has not been fully enforced (for various) reasons for quite some time. As I have pointed out the CMD I do not see a problem with the correct enforcement of law as such and I don't think we actually disagree on this.

Setting aside the question of illegal immigration - the use of racial stereotypes is (in my opinion) absolutely unnaceptable and should ALWAYS be challenged.

To explain - I am white and english, but my wife was born in Africa and her family are Indian.

My children are hence also partly Indian.

Although they actually look white I am accutely aware that some people will view them differently because they are not. There are still a great many racists in the world and far many more people who believe that racial stereotypes are acceptable and perhaps even funny.

I don't want my kids to have any less chances in life than I did and so, if I come across someone who is unwittingly racist (ie they cannot understand why stereotypes are damaging) then I will try to challenge them.
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      08-13-2006, 02:59 PM   #27
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You obviously believe your Mexican Tourism thread was closed following complaints to admin .... as my post was the last in the thread I would like to make it clear that I did not make any complaints (except to you for posting this stuff).
Yeah, I do. Now I'm wondering what did happen. Only Mods/Admins can close threads. Who was the pussy? Oooops! Jeeeez, I might have offended a moderator or an admin by using the "p" word. I hope this thread doesn't get closed down, or worse yet, I get BANNED!

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Originally Posted by needforspeed
Perhaps you should ask the mods why it was closed? I suspect it is because your chosen topic is controversial and occasionally offensive.
Wow! We sure wouldn't want to discuss anything controversial now would we? And OMG! Something OFFENDED someone!? Holy crap we need to shut the site down NOW! We cannot ever OFFEND anyone, it's just not right. How DARE we post anything that might offend anyone about anything!

Quote:
Originally Posted by needforspeed
The other thread which 'disappeared' was well beyond anything you posted and I would imaging the mods deleted it almost immediately they read it. It's content would actually have been illegal in the UK where 'incitement to religious hatred' is actually a crime.
Don't know about that, I never saw it. But it sounds like more bullshit to me. "Incitement to religious hatred" sounds like just one more law attempting to legislate peoples thoughts and free speech. I'm glad I live in the United States where we still, somehow, have the 1st Amendment Right to Free Speech. But I'm sure the ACLU is working diligently to put an end to that too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by needforspeed
It's not that people cannot enter a reasoned intelligent debate about adult issues (you will probably agree that I did just that in response to one of your earlier posts). Instead I believe that the problem is that many do not want to debate this issue in this forum, but are dragged into it by your posts.
Who forces you to read a topic in the Off Topic forum or anywhere else, your mother? WTF? Don't read it if you don't want to discuss it. "Dragged into [my] posts! Indeed!

Quote:
Originally Posted by needforspeed
In short, I don't think I am the only one who would prefer you to focus on other matters in your posts.
It's called an OFF TOPIC section for a reason. Maybe the site administraters should post a list topics that they "Approve" so no one gets offended?

The obvious solution for you and anyone else that doesn't want to disuss a topic is to not discuss it.

Or, in other words: Don't come to the Off Topic forums and/or don't click through my posts.

It's YOUR CHOICE, not mine.
 
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      08-13-2006, 03:17 PM   #28
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I want to stay out of this ... but I read the forum by clicking 'view new posts' and invariably this stuff ends up at the top of the page ... so I feel compelled to read it and hence compelled to reply.
I really do want to stay out of this but my mommy makes me read all "New Posts". I CAN'T STOP MYSELF!

Quote:
Originally Posted by needforspeed
I could for instance put CMD on my ignore list, but I would still see the replies - and then I would be moved to see what generated them.
ATTENTION ADMINS: PLEASE MAKE UP SOME RULES THAT WILL PROTECT ME FROM MYSELF!


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Originally Posted by needforspeed
Hopefully, he will stop posting this stuff, so we can get back to enjoying this forum about CARS (please )
MAKE HIM STOP POSTING! PLEEEEEEEASE! BECAUSE I CAN'T HELP READING WHAT HE POSTS!

What a piece of work.

You may wish to seek medical or psychiatric help.
 
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      08-13-2006, 03:20 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by ga-bmwdrvr
emphasis on ILLEGAL, get it? Nothing against you personally either, but the comparison is not as irrelevant as you make it seem. People will say, "it is ILLEGAL immigrants that bother me, I have nothing against legal immigrants". What is the difference between the two? Legal vs illegal. Speeding is an illegal action. The point is, immigration is much more complex. You took my initial comment WAY too literally. Peace.
There is a tremendous difference between the two. In fact it's advanced to the point where there is hardly any comparison left.
 
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      08-13-2006, 03:27 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by CMD
There is a tremendous difference between the two. In fact it's advanced to the point where there is hardly any comparison left.
please explain/expand
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      08-13-2006, 03:31 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by ga-bmwdrvr
I know what you mean. I have been trying to stay out of it too.
Just to give you guys an idea of how this type of thinking easilly gets out of hand, I will give you a personal example.
We had a repairman come to the house to fix a brand new stove that was defective out of the box. My wife, who is puertorican and speaks english with a heavy accent, calls me crying because the guy starts giving her crap and aked her if she was an illegal. Needless to say she kicked his a$$ out of the house and I called GE. They apologized and sent a different repairman the next day.
CMD, immigration is a very complex issue and I, even as a hispanic, have mixed views on the subject. Not all immigrants are bad but, unfortunately, not all are good either. The bad ones ruin it for all. The stereotyping becomes very real. However, many of the complaints about immigrants can be down right ridiculous. You should see the looks we get when my wife and I speak spanish in public. We never do it if an english speakig person is part of the group or conversation. That would be rude. But if I'm having a private conversation with my wife, why should anybody care? The same goes for having a flag on your car or whatever. I myself do not use it and find it a bit silly when I see it, but to each their own. I also do not like any kind of bumper sticker. Anyways, frredom of expression IS part of the american way and they can display their flag if they want. I do not see how the flag is a problem that has anything to do with illegal immigration yet many of these article or satires include it. Thats when it starts crossing the line and you wonder what REALLY bothers these people about immigrants.
ga-bmwdrvr,

You obviously had a repair man that was a racist asshole and I wouldn't have blamed your wife if she'd popped a cap in his ass. You have every right to speak any language you want in private with your wife, and anytime, actually. But you aren't rude, you are obviously a gentleman. Flying the Mexican flag on your car or house is the ultimate in disrespect and unbelievably rude. That, to me, is the very DEFINITION of offensive and WAY over the line. That's EXACTLY the kind of behavior that really pisses the American public off.
 
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      08-13-2006, 03:36 PM   #32
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Not understanding the difference between legal and illegal immigration is like not understanding that you can possess aspirin but not cocaine. I mean they are both drugs right? One is an illegal drug and one is legal. I don't see how this is a complicated issue.
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      08-13-2006, 03:41 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by needforspeed
I entirely understand ... and this reflects my only difficult with CMD's posts. The illegal immigration situation in the USA is actually quite interesting and clearly the law has not been fully enforced (for various) reasons for quite some time. As I have pointed out the CMD I do not see a problem with the correct enforcement of law as such and I don't think we actually disagree on this.

Setting aside the question of illegal immigration - the use of racial stereotypes is (in my opinion) absolutely unnaceptable and should ALWAYS be challenged.

To explain - I am white and english, but my wife was born in Africa and her family are Indian.

My children are hence also partly Indian.

Although they actually look white I am accutely aware that some people will view them differently because they are not. There are still a great many racists in the world and far many more people who believe that racial stereotypes are acceptable and perhaps even funny.

I don't want my kids to have any less chances in life than I did and so, if I come across someone who is unwittingly racist (ie they cannot understand why stereotypes are damaging) then I will try to challenge them.
We are discussing a virtual invasion by illegal immigrants from the south here in the southwestern United States. Thousands cross the border under the cover of darkness every day. The fact is, due to Mexico being the country that is on the other side of the border, it's primarily Mexicans that are coming across illegally. It has NOTHING to do with race. I am not a racist, either wittingly or unwittingly. If you knew me, if we hung out together at a Starbucks and you got to know me, you'd see that, I promise. It has to do with our country being overrun, and financially over-burdened. If we don't shut the floodgates now, then when, never? Give me a number. We’ve got 20 million illegal immigrants in our country now, bankrupting our schools, hospitals and our criminal justice system. At what number should we stop? 50 million? 70 million? 100 million?
 
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      08-13-2006, 03:44 PM   #34
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please explain/expand
I think I'm done for the day, I'll get to it tomorrow if you really don't know.

I've appreciated the spirited debate today without getting censored by the Administrators or Moderators.

Peace, brother!
 
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      08-13-2006, 03:44 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by CMD
You may wish to seek medical or psychiatric help.
First off - I think you need to calm down. You obviously have not understood the various points I have tried to make.

That's fine, but there is no need to be insulting or aggressive. Your last 2 posts in response to mine are both, In short this is pointless and will achieve nothing.

Your earlier posts were more thoughtful and intelligent, but regrettably this does not seem to be the case here.

You don't know me and I don't know you. We live on opposite sides of the world and are united by a common enjoyment of a car. I have no particular difficulty with you as a person and there is no real reason why we should be attacking one another.

I have already agreed with your position that the US should and (are entitled to) enforce immigration law. You appear not to have realised this so I have said it again.

I will continue to argue against any posts you make which I believe to be based on a stereotypical and insulting view of mexicans or illegal immigrants generally. This is because I believe this to be inherently wrong and (to an extent) racist. I also believe that, because you are infinitely more fortunate than those you are insulting, the 'insult' is doubly unjust.

I don't want to do this and would rather you just didn't make those sort of posts (n.b. please note this would not stop you posting in a rational debate about immigration), but if you continue then so shall I.
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      08-13-2006, 03:58 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by needforspeed
The comparison was not illogical or irrelevant.

You consider illegal immigrants to be 'criminals by default' because they break the law.

Therefore, you must also consider speeders to be 'criminals by default'.

The nub of the question is - why is one crime worse than the other?

You obviously consider illegal immigration to be the bigger problem, but the mother of a child killed by a speeding motorist would probably disagree.
Yes I do "consider" speeders to be criminals by default. Because the fact is they are criminals by definition.

Your story of the mother of a child killed by a speeding motorist is an excellent example of the cost of illegal immigration vs the cost of a criminal guilty of felony manslaughter.

The are both equally DEVISTATING, but the illegal immigrant criminals are just guilty of a misdemeanor. They should legally be FELONS and we are working to make them just that.

Yes, they are both devastating, one to a nation, the other to a mother and family.
 
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      08-13-2006, 03:59 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pawarrant
Not understanding the difference between legal and illegal immigration is like not understanding that you can possess aspirin but not cocaine. I mean they are both drugs right? One is an illegal drug and one is legal. I don't see how this is a complicated issue.
Who doesn't understand the difference? It is the same as speeding and not speeding. Legal vs not legal. Pretty easy if you ask me. The immigration issue is more complicated than that. Just ask any polititian that wishes to win the next elections if it is complicated or not.
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      08-13-2006, 04:00 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CMD
We are discussing a virtual invasion by illegal immigrants from the south here in the southwestern United States. Thousands cross the border under the cover of darkness every day. The fact is, due to Mexico being the country that is on the other side of the border, it's primarily Mexicans that are coming across illegally. It has NOTHING to do with race. I am not a racist, either wittingly or unwittingly. If you knew me, if we hung out together at a Starbucks and you got to know me, you'd see that, I promise. It has to do with being overrun, and financially over-burdened. If we don't shut the floodgates now, then when, never? Give me a number. We’ve got 20 million illegal immigrants in our country now, bankrupting our schools, hospitals and our criminal justice system. At what number should we stop? 50 million? 70 million? 100 million?
Just saw this.

Thank you at least for replying without insults this time .

As I have said (many times now) you are entitled to your views on immigration policy. I don't share them, but as you have pointed out I do not have first hand experience of your situation.

As I have also said many times I support your position that immigration law should be enforced and that it is within your rights for you to campaign for this.

But, I have real difficulty with stereotyped imagery and argument (like the comedy mexican tourism skit, the comedy mexican driving license with the 'fat bandito', the stuff about women climbing fences whilst giving birth and your sig that said all illegal immigrants were robbers and thieves). This stuff IS offensive and stereotypes like these ARE the foundations of racism.

The other post that was deleted wasn't unwitting racism - it was deliberate (although it targetted a religion not a race). It was a poll asking how many forum members 'hated muslims for their beliefs'. I don't think anyone who is genuinely 'not racist' would have difficulty with the deletion of that thread.

If you can keep the posts factual and intelligent, avoid negative moral generalisations about illegal immigrants as a whole (or individual races) and perhaps engage in an argument about what you are trying to achieve by posting about this issue at all (which I have asked several times), then I believe we have nothing to argue about.
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      08-13-2006, 04:03 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CMD
Yes I do "consider" speeders to be criminals by default. Because the fact is they are criminals by definition.

Your story of the mother of a child killed by a speeding motorist is an excellent example of the cost of illegal immigration vs the cost of a criminal guilty of felony manslaughter.

The are both equally DEVISTATING, but the illegal immigrant criminals are just guilty of a misdemeanor. They should legally be FELONS and we are working to make them just that.

Yes, they are both devastating, one to a nation, the other to a mother and family.
Thank you CMD, my work here is done. By the way, I thought you were done for the day..just kidding... I am going to go kook some BBQ ribs with the family now. This IS a great country. Later.
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      08-13-2006, 04:05 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by CMD
Yes I do "consider" speeders to be criminals by default. Because the fact is they are criminals by definition.

Your story of the mother of a child killed by a speeding motorist is an excellent example of the cost of illegal immigration vs the cost of a criminal guilty of felony manslaughter.

The are both equally DEVISTATING, but the illegal immigrant criminals are just guilty of a misdemeanor. They should legally be FELONS and we are working to make them just that.

Yes, they are both devastating, one to a nation, the other to a mother and family.
If I may - it seems to me that you are really campaigning for the law as it stands at the moment to be enforced (ie for the borders to be policed and illegal immigrants to be deported rather than supported).

I don't have a difficulty with this - I think the law should be followed and if it's wrong people should campaign to change it.

What I do struggle with is the way in which you seem to blame the illegals for the problem. The problem seems to really have been cause by lax enforcement of the immigration laws for more than a decade.

Can you really (morally) blame people for coming to the USA illegally when they can see that others are able to do so in free view of the authorities without penalty?

If I 'take your word for it' about the devastation caused by illegal immigration then I would still have to make the point that this devastion is caused en masse rather than individually. So it is not the individual act of lawlessness that causes the problem, but rather it is the collective impact of hundreds or thousands of lawless acts, which (for many reasons) are deliberately permitted by the american authorities.
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      08-13-2006, 04:12 PM   #41
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Who doesn't understand the difference? It is the same as speeding and not speeding. Legal vs not legal. Pretty easy if you ask me. The immigration issue is more complicated than that. Just ask any polititian that wishes to win the next elections if it is complicated or not.
The solution to the Illegal Immigration problem is not complicated at all. You close the borders and control who comes in and goes out, just like every other sovereign nation does. Then you go about systematically sending illegals back from where they came, starting with the criminal element first.

Our politicians are sissy-ass weasels that don't want to be labeled racist by the PC left, so they stay safely in the middle. Is sickening. Meanwhile our country is slowly sliding down the toilet while our politicians are living the good life. Most of them know nothing of life in the "real world."
 
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      08-13-2006, 04:15 PM   #42
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If you guys don't like what CMD posts, don't read it.
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      08-13-2006, 04:17 PM   #43
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Just saw this.

Thank you at least for replying without insults this time .

As I have said (many times now) you are entitled to your views on immigration policy. I don't share them, but as you have pointed out I do not have first hand experience of your situation.

As I have also said many times I support your position that immigration law should be enforced and that it is within your rights for you to campaign for this.

But, I have real difficulty with stereotyped imagery and argument (like the comedy mexican tourism skit, the comedy mexican driving license with the 'fat bandito', the stuff about women climbing fences whilst giving birth and your sig that said all illegal immigrants were robbers and thieves). This stuff IS offensive and stereotypes like these ARE the foundations of racism.

The other post that was deleted wasn't unwitting racism - it was deliberate (although it targetted a religion not a race). It was a poll asking how many forum members 'hated muslims for their beliefs'. I don't think anyone who is genuinely 'not racist' would have difficulty with the deletion of that thread.

If you can keep the posts factual and intelligent, avoid negative moral generalisations about illegal immigrants as a whole (or individual races) and perhaps engage in an argument about what you are trying to achieve by posting about this issue at all (which I have asked several times), then I believe we have nothing to argue about.
I apologize for being insulting, I get somewhat emotional about this topic at times. Anyway, I think we've debated enough for now. Let's go throw a steak on the barbie!

Peace, bro!
 
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      08-13-2006, 04:19 PM   #44
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Thank you CMD, my work here is done. By the way, I thought you were done for the day..just kidding... I am going to go kook some BBQ ribs with the family now. This IS a great country. Later.
It is a great country, and I'm glad that we are both a part of it. Enjoy your BBQ with your family, and have a cigar on me!
 
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