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      08-21-2006, 05:55 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by ScBlacksunshine
Where's Aztlan at?
I'm glad you asked, I don't know what nfs meant by "don't get him started."

First, in order to understand "where" Aztlan is, read this short blurb about MEChA. The whole post will take you only a few minutes to read. Don't kill the messenger, here is my source: http://www.mayorno.com/WhoIsMecha.html

The official national symbol of MEChA is an eagle holding a machete-like weapon and a stick of dynamite. (See photo at bottom of post)

WHAT IS MEChA?

The acronym MEChA stands for "Movimiento Estudiantil Chicano de Aztlan." or "Chicano Student Movement of Aztlan."

MEChA is an Hispanic separatist organization that encourages anti-American activities and civil disobedience. The radical members of MEChA who refer to themselves as "Mechistas," romanticize Mexican claims to the "lost Territories" of the Southwestern United States -- a Chicano country called Aztlan. In its national constitution, MEChA calls for self-determination by its members to liberate Aztlan. MEChA's national constitution starts out: "Chicano and Chicana students of Aztlán must take upon themselves the responsibilities to promote Chicanismo within the community, politicizing our Raza with an emphasis on indigenous consciousness to continue the struggle for the self-determination of the Chicano people for the purpose of liberating Aztlán."

These anti-American "Mechistas" live with the false illusion that they are being racially discriminated against because they are Latinos while totally dismissing the idea that maybe it is their ideology that is being discriminated against.

At the MEChA National Conference on March 15 - 18, 2001, the official "MEChA Philosophy" was ratified. An excerpt from the document states: "as Mechistas, we vow to work for the liberation of Aztlan."

The MEChA Clubs on each of the Santa Barbara high school campuses are not the only ones. MEChA groups exist on 90 percent of the public high school, college and university campuses in the Southwestern United States.

WHAT IS AZTLAN?


The myth of Aztlan can best be explained by California's Santa Barbara School District's Chicano Studies textbook, "The Mexican American Heritage" by East Los Angeles high school teacher Carlos Jimenez. On page 84 there is a redrawn map of Mexico and the United States, showing Mexico with a full one-third more territory, all of it taken back from the United States. On page107, it says "Latinos are now realizing that the power to control Aztlan may once again be in their hands."

Shown are the "repatriated" eight or nine states including Colorado, California, Arizona, Texas, Utah, New Mexico, Oregon and parts of Washington. (See photo at bottom of post). According to the school text, Mexico is supposed to regain these territories as they rightly belong to the "mythical" homeland of Aztlan. On page 86, it says "...a free-trade agreement...promises...if Mexico is to allow the U.S. to invest in Mexico...then Mexico should...be allowed to freely export...Mexican labor. Obviously this would mean a re-evaluation of the border between the two countries as we know it today." Jimenez's Aztlan myth is further amplified at MEChA club meetings held at Santa Barbara Public Schools.

The book, paid for by American tax payers, cites no references or footnotes, leaving school children totally dependent on their teacher to separate fact from opinion and political propaganda. The book teaches separatism, victimization, nationalism, completely lacks patriotism towards the United States, and promotes an open border policy. The book is 100 percent editorial -- the opinions of the author.

WHAT IS RAZA?

"La Raza" (The Race) is a broad term which refers to those whose ancestry is indigenous to the area of Mexico (or "Aztlan"). MEChA members refer to themselves as "La Raza" or "Raza," but the term itself is used to indicate camaraderie among those in different organizations with the same objectives. There are a number of organizations who consider themselves to be La Raza.

The most visible of these groups are MEChA, The Brown Berets de Aztlan, OLA (Organization for the Liberation of Aztlan), La Raza Unida Party, and the "Nation of Aztlan" to name a few. Although the activism of these organizations vary from somewhat radical to extremely radical, they share the same objectives, the "liberation of Aztlan." Each follows the Raza manifesto "El Plan de Aztlan (sometimes called "El Plan Espiritual de Aztlan"). The Nation of Aztlan, tied to La Voz de Aztlan disseminates the exact same propaganda that MEChA spreads including antisemitic propaganda. Believers in the Aztlan legend insist upon the indivisibility of "La Raza" and their common goals, one of them being the need to abolish the border between the U.S. and Mexico. There is a myriad of Raza college newspaper. Some are El Popo, Aztlan News, Chispas, Gente de Aztlan (UCLA), Voz Fronteriza (U.C. San Diego), La Voz Mestiza (U.C. Irvine) and La Voz Berkeley. It is not uncommon for the writers of these publications to refer to the U.S., as "AmeriKKKa."

Rhetoric by some Chicano educators strongly suggest Communist or Socialist leanings. In May, 2000, more than 1,200 students gathered at UCLA for the seventh annual Raza Youth Conference, which the members say promotes higher education and recognition of the Aztlan culture. Sponsored by MEChA, the year's theme was "Reclaiming Our Razas through education, resistance, and promoting the idea of remembering the historical struggles of Raza" said Erika Ramirez, co-chair of the conference. The conference drew students from 80 middle and high schools and community colleges; featured speeches by those actively involved with the Chicano community.

The keynote speaker was Antonia Darder, a professor of education and cultural studies at Claremont Graduate University and director of the Institute for Cultural Studies in Education, who received a standing ovation for her speech.

Darder described American capitalism and what she said were its impacts on racism and sexism. "I grew up in a capitalist society, a society that taught us that the greed of corporations control politics," Darder said. "Capitalism is the root of domination. Racism and sexism exist because capitalism requires it." Darder said a globalized economy forced smaller countries to give up their self-sufficiency, resulting in people migrating to the U.S. "We're here because U.S. foreign policy in Latin America has forced us here," she said.

The University of Oregon Chapter of MEChA hints at its communist sentiments by posting a picture of Cuba's communist dictator Fidel Castro. On its web site, "La Voz de Aztlan" has an excerpt from a speech of February 7, 1997, by Fidel Castro who said "the United States should return to Mexico huge chunks of that country's territories it acquired more than a century ago" La Voz de Aztlan, whom Antonio Villaraigosa refuses to repudiate, also disseminates antisemitic propaganda.

Apparently, these "Raza" cults are composed of people who unabashedly hate the United States and often support other groups and leaders who also hate America. Raza's hatred of America is so intense, that most make bedfellows to anyone else who also hates America, like dictator Fidel Castro; murderer of his own people Sadam Hussain; and the women hating Taliban -- and of course they sympathize with all Islamic Terrorists over the Israel/Palestine issue. Raza cults are the loudest and most insistent element of the immigration lobby in California. Inebriated with a sense of righteous victimhood, and entranced by myths of a heroic racial past, devotees of the Aztlan cults are rapidly extending their influence within California's Hispanic population, particularly among students in the university system.
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Last edited by CMD; 08-21-2006 at 06:18 PM.
 
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      08-21-2006, 08:12 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CMD
My point is clear and you know it. There's only one reason you are reacting to my post(s) the way you are: You must be a Muslim male between the ages of 17 and 40.
Um, no
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      08-22-2006, 04:06 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CMD
My point is clear and you know it. There's only one reason you are reacting to my post(s) the way you are: You must be a Muslim male between the ages of 17 and 40.
That's nonsense - I think whippersnappers point makes perfect sense and I am 33, white and NOT muslim. Having said that - if I were muslim I would still deplore terrorism and would not be ashamed on my faith.

It's pretty clear that a large number of acts of terrorism have been commited by Islamic extremists in recent years. The reasons why this would be the case are very complex and in my opinion this is a socio economic problem rather than one of religion. The current problems of large scale international terrorism are exclusively linked to muslim extremism.

It is important though to acknowlelge 2 things - which I think is whippersnappers point:

1. Terrorism is not exclusive to muslim extremists, but like all violence it is largely exclusive to young men. My alternative quiz demonstrates this.

2. The majority of muslims (particularly those who live in the western world)are not terrorists and do not sympathise with terrorist action.

Unfortunately there does seem to be a particular ability for the terrorist agenda to flourish in Muslim countries and societies. In particular the 'suicide bomber' ideal seems to somehow capture and be acceptable to many muslims in a way that seems completely alien to more western societies.
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      08-22-2006, 04:28 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CMD
I'm glad you asked, I don't know what nfs meant by "don't get him started."
I meant don't get him going on the immigration thing again .....

Anyway ... while we are here, this thread reminds me of something that interested me a lot while I was looking into some of your other posts.

I am sure you know about this site:

http://www.aztlan.net/

What astonished me was not the biased content ... all pressure groups use propaganda. The strangest part is the anti-semitic content - stories like 'was mel gibson set up' for instance. I also see paralells with the palestinian conflict, but these guys even link to a palestinian site.

Contrast this with articles like this one by Michelle Malkin. She is not only a fierce opponent of illegal immigration, she also writes for the Jewish World Review:

http://jewishworldreview.com/michelle/malkin090804.asp

The purpose of this article seems to be the same as your quiz. To remind the reader that the terrorism discussed was carried out 'in the name of Islam'. (notwithstanding the fact that in the Beslan incident at least most of the deaths were the result of the bungled russion military intervention).

I don't understand why she wants to bring this back to religion, but she clearly does and that is to a large extent anti-islamic.

So why do the 2 sides on the immigration debate seem determined to copy the situation in the middle east?

I find the apparent religious hatred on both parts quite disturbing.
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      08-22-2006, 10:30 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by needforspeed
That's nonsense - I think whippersnappers point makes perfect sense and I am 33, white and NOT muslim. Having said that - if I were muslim I would still deplore terrorism and would not be ashamed on my faith.

It's pretty clear that a large number of acts of terrorism have been commited by Islamic extremists in recent years. The reasons why this would be the case are very complex and in my opinion this is a socio economic problem rather than one of religion. The current problems of large scale international terrorism are exclusively linked to muslim extremism.

It is important though to acknowlelge 2 things - which I think is whippersnappers point:

1. Terrorism is not exclusive to muslim extremists, but like all violence it is largely exclusive to young men. My alternative quiz demonstrates this.

2. The majority of muslims (particularly those who live in the western world)are not terrorists and do not sympathise with terrorist action.

Unfortunately there does seem to be a particular ability for the terrorist agenda to flourish in Muslim countries and societies. In particular the 'suicide bomber' ideal seems to somehow capture and be acceptable to many muslims in a way that seems completely alien to more western societies.
You and Mr. whippersnapper are living in total and complete denial. (IMO). It's no wonder we live in the kind of world we do. One that is completely upside-down. Kind of Alice In Wonderland like.

It's really difficult to carry on a discussion with those that look at the color black, for example, and call it green.
 
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      08-22-2006, 11:52 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CMD
You and Mr. whippersnapper are living in total and complete denial. (IMO). It's no wonder we live in the kind of world we do. One that is completely upside-down. Kind of Alice In Wonderland like.

It's really difficult to carry on a discussion with those that look at the color black, for example, and call it green.
Your problem is simply not connsidering for even a second that you might be wrong. If we truely live in different worlds how could you possibly know that yours is "better"

It is all about perspective. To you being labelled a conservative is something I am sure you are proud of. Where I'm from, that label is an insult (it means narrow minded and afraid of things that are different from what you know).

I agree that the world can appear upside down. Afterall the USA invaded a nation state illegally and then acted surprised when freedom fighters, sorry terrorists, fought back! The USA has 2 good Middle East friends in the war against terror, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. One is the source of most of the 911 attackers and the other the source of most of the terror attacks and alerts in the UK.

Strange world isn't it
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      08-22-2006, 06:05 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by whippersnapper
Your problem is simply not connsidering for even a second that you might be wrong. If we truely live in different worlds how could you possibly know that yours is "better"
Wrong about what, that ALL terrorism committed against the United States has been carried out by male Muslim extremists between the ages of 17 and 40?

No, I'm not possibly wrong.

And when did I EVER state that my world is better? I've never said that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by whippersnapper
It is all about perspective. To you being labeled a conservative is something I am sure you are proud of. Where I'm from, that label is an insult (it means narrow minded and afraid of things that are different from what you know).
Perspective on what, who carried out those terrorist atrocities listed in the "quiz"? Hello, it's a FACT, nothing more nothing less, that the answer to all those questions is d.) male Muslim extremists between the ages of 18 and 40. Period. There is no other answer or any other way to spin it. And as far as me being “labeled” a conservative, how does that have anything to do with what we are discussing here? And who labeled me a conservative? I have never been called a conservative in my entire life, nor have I ever considered myself one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by whippersnapper
I agree that the world can appear upside down. After all the USA invaded a nation state illegally and then acted surprised when freedom fighters, sorry terrorists, fought back! The USA has 2 good Middle East friends in the war against terror, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. One is the source of most of the 911 attackers and the other the source of most of the terror attacks and alerts in the UK.
The USA did not "invade" Iraq illegally. Only extreme left-wing, bleeding-heart liberals define the war on Iraq as "illegal." The fact is, it was not an illegal invasion.

You are right, however, on at least one point. The Saudis are the source of many terrorists. And if the truth be known, the Saudis are not our friends. They are two-faced back stabbers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by whippersnapper
Strange world isn't it
Apparently you are unaware of who carried out all of the terrorists acts in the quiz. If that's the case, and it appears that it is, then we have nothing to discuss. The point has flown over your head(s) at high altitude.

Last edited by CMD; 08-23-2006 at 09:50 PM.
 
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      08-22-2006, 06:49 PM   #30
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You should explain how US invaded Iraq legally since you are such an expert on the issue.
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      08-22-2006, 09:23 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CMD
Wrong about what, that ALL terrorism committed against the United States has been carried out by male Muslim extremists between the ages of 17 and 40?

No, I'm not possibly wrong.

And when did I EVER state that my world is better? I've never said that.



Perspective on what, who carried out those terrorist atrocities listed in the "quiz"? Hello, it's a FACT, nothing more nothing less, that the answer to all those questions is d.) male Muslim extremists between the ages of 18 and 40. Period. There is no other answer or any other way to spin it. And as far as me being “labeled” a conservative, how does that have anything to do with what we are discussing here? And who labeled me a conservative? I have never been called a conservative in my entire life, nor have I ever considered myself one.



The USA did not "invade" Iraq illegally. Only extreme left-wing, bleeding-heart liberals define the war on Iraq as "illegal." The fact is, it was not an illegal invasion.

You are right, however, on at least one point. The Saudis are the source of many terrorists. And if the truth be known, the Saudis are not our friends. The are back stabbers.



Apparently you are unaware of who carried out all of the terrorists acts in the quiz. If that's the case, and it appears that it is, then we have nothing to discuss. The point has flown over your head(s) at high altitude.
It would seem you reply to posts without comprehending their contents which makes it challenging to maintain a dialogue

You readily fall into the stereotypical behavior of people who have a dogmatic view but cannot explain it. An analysis of your posts simply shows you re-state the same thing over and over again which I understood we had already established as assinine.
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      08-22-2006, 09:24 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oz
You should explain how US invaded Iraq legally since you are such an expert on the issue.
1. To enforce the following U.N. resolutions (note how there has been no U.N. resolution condemning the U.S. for this war)

1454 (2002)
Implements revisions to the Goods Review List.
1447 (2002)
Extends the oil-for-food program by 6 months, obliges the council to review the goods review list within one month
1443 (2002)
Extends the oil-for-food program by 9 days only, due to disagreements over US proposals to broaden the Goods Review List.
1441 (2002)
Provides IAEA and UNMOVIC with a clear mandate in Iraq, with full and explicit authority for unrestricted inspections.
1409 (2002)
Defined a new system for the sale or supply of commodities and products to Iraq, through the adoption of the Goods Review List (GRL) and associated procedures.
1382 (2001)
Decided to adopt the proposed "Goods Review List (GRL)" and procedures of application for implementation beginning on 30 May 2002.
1352 (2001)
Expressed intent to revise UNSCR 986 (1995) arrangements for sale of goods and commodities to Iraq.
1284 (1999)
Confirmed IAEA mandate. Established UNMOVIC.
1194 (1998)
Condemned Iraq for suspending full cooperation with inspection process. Suspended bi-monthly sanctions reviews.
1154 (1998)
Endorsed UN Secretary General's efforts to secure Iraq's compliance in granting access to all sites including Presidential sites.
1137 (1997)
Condemned Iraq for continued violation of its obligations. Demanded full cooperation free of any conditions.
1134 (1997)
Condemned Iraq's repeated refusal to allow access by UNSCOM personnel demanded full cooperation with UNSCOM.
1060 (1996)
Deplored Iraq's refusal to allow access by UNSCOM personnel. Demanded that Iraq cooperate fully with UNSCOM.
1051 (1996)
Established Import/Export monitoring mechanism. Consolidated periodic reports required under UNSCR 699 & 715
986 (1991) Established the oil sales for humanitarian purposes, also known as "oil-for-food program" (subsequent resolutions have extended this program).
715 (1991)
Approved the Ongoing Monitoring and Verification Plan submitted by the IAEA.
707 (1991)
Repeated demands that Iraq comply with the provisions of previous UNSCR and declared Iraq in material breach of UNSCR 687.
699 (1991)
Established Iraq's liability for the costs of the Special Commission and the IAEA.
687 (1991)
Established the mandates for the United Nations Special Commission and the IAEA in Iraq.

2. Because Iraq was in violation of the terms of surrender from the first Gulf War which most importantly included the daily firing upon U.S. Air Force aircraft patrolling the no-fly zones that were part of said terms. I would consider firing upon our military as an act of war and legal reason enough for me.

an interview of a Air Force pilot about this subject...
http://www.defenselink.mil/transcrip..._t1003nfz.html

3. The Congress of the United States authorized the invasion (which included more reasons than just WMD's which I know you are going to bring up, I've heard that broken record before).

4. I'll throw this reason out there for fun. To apprehend and bring to justice a murderous dictator who exterminated hundreds of thousands of people. That reason alone should be enough for anyone who is concerned about humanity.
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      08-22-2006, 09:26 PM   #33
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This is what you are up against CMD.
BadBob, saddy, it appears you are correct.
 
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      08-22-2006, 09:28 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Oz
You should explain how US invaded Iraq legally since you are such an expert on the issue.
It looks like my friend pawarrant has stepped up and explained for me!

Thank you sir!
 
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      08-22-2006, 09:29 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CMD
It looks like my friend pawarrant has stepped up and explained for me!

Thank you sir!
No problem, I'm sure I'm going to have to include pictures for it to be understood by some.
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      08-22-2006, 09:35 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pawarrant
1. To enforce the following U.N. resolutions (note how there has been no U.N. resolution condemning the U.S. for this war)
There are outstanding resolutions against Israel too but no-one has invaded that country.(interesting to note Bush raving on about how you can't have countries ignore resolutions, ironic when the exact same thing is the case for its greatest middle east ally and the threats he made to totally ignore the UN). There is no point in a UN resolution condemning the US for this war since the US or Britain would exercise a veto right. By the way it isn't actually a war since war was not declared

Quote:
Originally Posted by pawarrant
2. Because Iraq was in violation of the terms of surrender from the first Gulf War which most importantly included the daily firing upon U.S. Air Force aircraft patrolling the no-fly zones that were part of said terms. I would consider firing upon our military as an act of war and legal reason enough for me.
this is probably your strongest argument but non military solutions were being prosecuted and would have resuted in around 3,000 americans and god knows how many tens or hundreds of thousand of innocent iraqis would still be alive today.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pawarrant
an interview of a Air Force pilot about this subject...
http://www.defenselink.mil/transcrip..._t1003nfz.html

3. The Congress of the United States authorized the invasion (which included more reasons than just WMD's which I know you are going to bring up, I've heard that broken record before).
Interesting insight into your psyche. Doing whatever you like is ok if the congress approved it

Quote:
Originally Posted by pawarrant
4. I'll throw this reason out there for fun. To apprehend and bring to justice a murderous dictator who exterminated hundreds of thousands of people. That reason alone should be enough for anyone who is concerned about humanity.
Well the US government has propped up other governments just as bad, this is an especially weak argument. Rwanda or Dafur are of no strategic interest so the massacres may continue unabated.
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      08-22-2006, 09:48 PM   #37
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What does Rwanda or Dafur have to do with the question of invading Iraq. I showed how the Iraq invasion was legal. Maybe the invasion of those other places would be legal too, but we are not talking about that. The Commander in Chief decides who to attack. When you become president, if the places you mention are legal to invade go for it. Something tells me if Bush invaded any of those places you would still be opposed. And if the U.N wants to enforce those resolutions Isreal violated, I say bring it on. Maybe the French could lead the assault.
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      08-22-2006, 09:49 PM   #38
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Its getting worse. CMD can't understand anyone elses posts, pawarrant can't understand his own. No wonder you make such silly statements if you are incapable of making a logical argument
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      08-22-2006, 09:56 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whippersnapper
Its getting worse. CMD can't understand anyone elses posts, pawarrant can't understand his own. No wonder you make such silly statements if you are incapable of making a logical argument
I understand my posts, your the one that seems confused by answering with irrelevant comments.
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      08-22-2006, 10:03 PM   #40
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I'll make it simple for you.

Given that

A) You argue that a valid reaosn for the invasion of Iraq was to stop the massacre of innocents

and

B) I inform you that the US government has in the past supported such governments, including Iraq

and

C) ignored similar massacres in other parts of the world

then it follows that your argument is not a sounds basis upon which to argue the Iraqi invasion.

Got it now?
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      08-22-2006, 10:19 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whippersnapper
I'll make it simple for you.

Given that

A) You argue that a valid reaosn for the invasion of Iraq was to stop the massacre of innocents

and

B) I inform you that the US government has in the past supported such governments, including Iraq

and

C) ignored similar massacres in other parts of the world

then it follows that your argument is not a sounds basis upon which to argue the Iraqi invasion.

Got it now?
Again, the question was to outline how the Iraq invasion was legal. I did that.

Your response pointed out how the invasion of parts of Africa would be legal. I agree. I am glad you would support the Bush administration if it was to invade Rwanda or Dafur.
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      08-23-2006, 03:16 AM   #42
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LOL @ nfs
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      08-23-2006, 03:53 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CMD
You and Mr. whippersnapper are living in total and complete denial. (IMO). It's no wonder we live in the kind of world we do. One that is completely upside-down. Kind of Alice In Wonderland like.

It's really difficult to carry on a discussion with those that look at the color black, for example, and call it green.
Exactly what am I in denial about?

This is the post that prompted the above response:

Quote:
Originally Posted by needforspeed
That's nonsense - I think whippersnappers point makes perfect sense and I am 33, white and NOT muslim. Having said that - if I were muslim I would still deplore terrorism and would not be ashamed on my faith.

It's pretty clear that a large number of acts of terrorism have been commited by Islamic extremists in recent years. The reasons why this would be the case are very complex and in my opinion this is a socio economic problem rather than one of religion. The current problems of large scale international terrorism are exclusively linked to muslim extremism.

It is important though to acknowlelge 2 things - which I think is whippersnappers point:

1. Terrorism is not exclusive to muslim extremists, but like all violence it is largely exclusive to young men. My alternative quiz demonstrates this.

2. The majority of muslims (particularly those who live in the western world)are not terrorists and do not sympathise with terrorist action.

Unfortunately there does seem to be a particular ability for the terrorist agenda to flourish in Muslim countries and societies. In particular the 'suicide bomber' ideal seems to somehow capture and be acceptable to many muslims in a way that seems completely alien to more western societies.
I'll list the points I made more simply - 1 by 1 and you can tell me which ones you believe to be 'wrong'.

1. Muslim terrorism has arisen because of socio economic and political reasons rather than as a natural result of the basic principles of the Muslim faith.

2. Terrorism is not exclusive to Muslim extremists.

3. The majority of Muslims particularly those in the West do not support terrorism or commit terrorist acts.

4. Sadly, the terrorist agenda does seem to flourish in some Muslim countries and societies and in particular the idea of the suicide bomber seems to be embraced rather than vilified.


I can't imagine you disagree with the 4th point - so it must be one of the 1st three. Point 2 is an absolute fact (ref. the IRA) - so you must believe either:

1. The Muslim faith in itself directly leads to terrorism.
2. The majority of Muslims support terrorism.

Both positions are profoundly incorrect and I hardly think that my position is akin to arguing that 'black is green'.

I've noticed that you tend to get frustrated in these discussions (which you typically start) and that you begin to attempt to evade the salient points by becoming insulting or dismissive of other peoples views.

Do you believe this to be a useful debating technique?

Incidentally - I would be interested in your views on my aztlan related post above and the bizarre (IMO) links between that situation and the one in the middle east.
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      08-23-2006, 10:48 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by needforspeed
Exactly what am I in denial about?

This is the post that prompted the above response:



I'll list the points I made more simply - 1 by 1 and you can tell me which ones you believe to be 'wrong'.

1. Muslim terrorism has arisen because of socio economic and political reasons rather than as a natural result of the basic principles of the Muslim faith.

2. Terrorism is not exclusive to Muslim extremists.

3. The majority of Muslims particularly those in the West do not support terrorism or commit terrorist acts.

4. Sadly, the terrorist agenda does seem to flourish in some Muslim countries and societies and in particular the idea of the suicide bomber seems to be embraced rather than vilified.


I can't imagine you disagree with the 4th point - so it must be one of the 1st three. Point 2 is an absolute fact (ref. the IRA) - so you must believe either:

1. The Muslim faith in itself directly leads to terrorism.
2. The majority of Muslims support terrorism.

Both positions are profoundly incorrect and I hardly think that my position is akin to arguing that 'black is green'.

I've noticed that you tend to get frustrated in these discussions (which you typically start) and that you begin to attempt to evade the salient points by becoming insulting or dismissive of other peoples views.

Do you believe this to be a useful debating technique?

Incidentally - I would be interested in your views on my aztlan related post above and the bizarre (IMO) links between that situation and the one in the middle east.
1. The people that support terrorism are quite rich, while they may recruit poor people to their cause by using social economic arguments, that is not the reason the leaders of the terrorist groups engage in terrorism. They simply want the world controlled by Islam.

2. Your statement is true. From an American standpoint all international terrorism against us has been perpetrated exclusively by Muslims.

3. While point 3 may also be true, it should be noted that the Muslim population and leaders as a whole is not vocal in condemning terrorism. If they would do the job of "policing" their own, it would not be perceived that their entire population supports terrorism.
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