E90Post
 


European Auto Source
 
BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Blackstone report on my N54 - Wear metals went UP!



Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      05-19-2008, 06:20 PM   #1
scollins
Bootleggin' 'n Gunrunnin'
scollins's Avatar
No_Country
35
Rep
2,345
Posts

 
Drives: 2010 e70 X5 35d
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Renton, WA

iTrader: (3)

Blackstone report on my N54 - Wear metals went UP!

I just got the results of my second oil analysis from Blackstone. My E90 335i just passed the one year mark at 9,000 miles, so I got my free annual oil change from my dealer. They collected an oil sample for me, and I sent it off to Blackstone.

I did an "out of cycle" oil change on my own at 5,500 miles through an independent BMW shop back in December. They used BMW branded oil, just like you'd get at the dealer. That was my first oil analysis (column just to the right of the gray bar.) So the first oil sample had 5,500 miles and the second had 3,500 miles.

What Blackstone noted from the second oil sample was increased wear metal rates! Not only did the wear metal PPMs go up, but the wear rate (PPM/mile) also went up!



This is a little concerning, as they expected rates to drop as the engine "wears in." However, they asked if I had done any track sessions (no), autocross (no) or mountain drives (yes!) on this sample. I did a few spirited drives on this sample that didn't happen in the first 5,500 miles. I also had 7 passes on the drag strip on this second oil sample.

So it would seem that I stressed this second oil sample harder than the first. I have no plans to back off on harder driving on the oil that is currently in the car. I'll take another oil sample at the next oil change (probably 15,000 miles total, 6,000 miles on the oil.)

Anyway, in my opinion, ANYONE with an N54 that does any sort of spirited driving and not changing their oil at 5,000 miles or so is unneccesarily risking their engine. If you are following the BMW recommended interval of 15,000 miles just to save a few bucks, I don't think it will be worth it in the long run.

Edited to add: My car has a completely stock drivetrain. No tunes, no exhaust, no intakes, etc. The only mods on my car are tint, the "robot face" rear power outlets and hardwired V1.
Attached Images
 
__________________
Scott
2010 E70 X5 35d
Alpine White on Black with Dark Bamboo trim
ZAP | ZCW | ZPP | ZPS | ZRC | ZTP | 322 | 328 | 330 | 386 | 4AZ | 4UB | 655 | 6FL | 6NF
2008 Ducati 1098S Red naturally....
Appreciate 0
      05-19-2008, 06:25 PM   #2
TheAcAvenger
Brigadier General
TheAcAvenger's Avatar
United_States
45
Rep
3,099
Posts

 
Drives: 2007 E92 335i
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: 757, VA

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for the report. Such valuable information for those not already doing their own oil changes.
__________________
2007 E92 335i - TC Kline DA Coilovers, HPA M3 Suspension Retrofit, Quaife LSD, Stoptech 6/4 BBK, Volk TE-37s, AR Downpipes, RDSport Quads, Forge DVs, Stett OC, RB Turbos, Procede V5, PWM Meth, Helix IC, EAS DCI, Rixster VEI, M-Tech Sides, OEM Aero Lip, Rieger Spoiler, Vorsteiner V-35 Hood, Performance Steering Wheel, Anthracite Headliner, OSS Headlights
Appreciate 0
      05-19-2008, 06:25 PM   #3
gum5h03
Galactic Emperor
gum5h03's Avatar
15
Rep
801
Posts

 
Drives: Fast
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: WA

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by scollins View Post
I just got the results of my second oil analysis from Blackstone. My E90 335i just passed the one year mark at 9,000 miles, so I got my free annual oil change from my dealer. They collected an oil sample for me, and I sent it off to Blackstone.

I did an "out of cycle" oil change on my own at 5,500 miles through an independent BMW shop back in December. They used BMW branded oil, just like you'd get at the dealer. That was my first oil analysis (column just to the right of the gray bar.) So the first oil sample had 5,500 miles and the second had 3,500 miles.

What Blackstone noted from the second oil sample was increased wear metal rates! Not only did the wear metal PPMs go up, but the wear rate (PPM/mile) also went up!



This is a little concerning, as they expected rates to drop as the engine "wears in." However, they asked if I had done any track sessions (no), autocross (no) or mountain drives (yes!) on this sample. I did a few spirited drives on this sample that didn't happen in the first 5,500 miles. I also had 7 passes on the drag strip on this second oil sample.

So it would seem that I stressed this second oil sample harder than the first. I have no plans to back off on harder driving on the oil that is currently in the car. I'll take another oil sample at the next oil change (probably 15,000 miles total, 6,000 miles on the oil.)

Anyway, in my opinion, ANYONE with an N54 that does any sort of spirited driving and not changing their oil at 5,000 miles or so is unneccesarily risking their engine. If you are following the BMW recommended interval of 15,000 miles just to save a few bucks, I don't think it will be worth it in the long run.
Good stuff... I'm old school and have changed my oil twice now in the coupe. I have about 7500 miles on it. Some people say it's a waste, but after seeing your results I'm positive I've been doing the right thing.
Appreciate 0
      05-19-2008, 06:26 PM   #4
BzsBimmer
2-4-6-8 My car and house depreciate
BzsBimmer's Avatar
United_States
25
Rep
1,780
Posts

 
Drives: 2010 E90 M3
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Modesto CA

iTrader: (12)

Send a message via Yahoo to BzsBimmer
Thanks Scott,
How much are these reports?
Appreciate 0
      05-19-2008, 06:31 PM   #5
scollins
Bootleggin' 'n Gunrunnin'
scollins's Avatar
No_Country
35
Rep
2,345
Posts

 
Drives: 2010 e70 X5 35d
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Renton, WA

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BzsBimmer View Post
Thanks Scott,
How much are these reports?

Basic oil analysis is $22.50, plus $10 to calculate the TBN (Total Base Number.) The TBN basically measures how much additive is left in the oil. Here is a link to Blackstone about TBN: http://www.blackstone-labs.com/do_i_need_a_tbn_.html

So I wrote a check to Blackstone for $32.50 and paid about $2.50 on shipping the sample to them, so $35 grand total. They send you the test kit for free.
__________________
Scott
2010 E70 X5 35d
Alpine White on Black with Dark Bamboo trim
ZAP | ZCW | ZPP | ZPS | ZRC | ZTP | 322 | 328 | 330 | 386 | 4AZ | 4UB | 655 | 6FL | 6NF
2008 Ducati 1098S Red naturally....
Appreciate 0
      05-19-2008, 06:46 PM   #6
O-cha
Brigadier General
O-cha's Avatar
82
Rep
4,729
Posts

 
Drives: Mcoupe
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: In front of you

iTrader: (2)

Send a message via AIM to O-cha
Yea that is not good. I had a 2k change then a 6-7k more after and of course the metal went up, but not the amount per mile.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      05-20-2008, 01:30 AM   #7
Panoz
Lieutenant Colonel
Panoz's Avatar
27
Rep
1,576
Posts

 
Drives: E92 Space Grey 335i ,Aero Kit
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: EU

iTrader: (0)

You are so lucky...we have nothing like this localy.

I wonder if i could send a sample of my oils to a Laboratory (Blackstone-like) by postal/courier and have the analysis done. Do anyone knows if this would be possible?
__________________

Procede V4 , Catless DPs, Forge FMIC, Injen Intake, VK Oilcooler, Hartge Quads Exhaust, Modded CDV, Synapse BOV Kit, BMW Performance 335i SSK Kit, P3 vent boost gauge

Space Grey 335i -> See more pics HERE
Appreciate 0
      05-20-2008, 01:37 AM   #8
E30M3Driver
Captain
E30M3Driver's Avatar
10
Rep
782
Posts

 
Drives: 13 335is, 89 M3, 97 M3
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Here, there

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2007 BMW 335i  [4.00]
1989 BMW M3  [4.10]
Interesting. Maybe we should accept higher wear rates along with our higher oil temps as the new normal? WTF is BMW thinking?! Oh yeah, trade in and buy a new car every 50K miles.
__________________


Performance Center Delivery, June 21, 2013: 2013 E92 335is | Le Mans Blue | Gray Leather with Black | 6MT | 19" Style 313's | Michelin Pilot Super Sports | BMW Carbon Fiber Rear Spoiler |
Appreciate 0
      05-20-2008, 01:47 AM   #9
Neema
Major General
Neema's Avatar
United_States
200
Rep
7,224
Posts

 
Drives: a few BMWs
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: SoCal

iTrader: (12)

been changing my oil every 5k since day one. . . now have 23k
__________________

LTMW Widebody+1M front bumper+Slek CF Lip|M3 Hood|StopTech BBK|M-Sport Rear Bumper+DD CF Diffuser|Custom Recaro Seats|KW V2|BavX LS3|M3 Side Skirts+Custom CF Lip|BBS CHR 19x10.5+BBS Lugs|LCI Taillights|RD Sport Anti-Sway Bars|GIAC S2|ER Intercooler+CF Shroud+Charge Pipe|Tial BOV|Injen Intake|MS downpipes|Custom Exhaust|BMS Oil Catch Can|M3 DCT wheel+TiD CF Paddles|BMW CF Trunk Spoiler|Aluminum Pedals
Appreciate 0
      05-20-2008, 01:48 AM   #10
scollins
Bootleggin' 'n Gunrunnin'
scollins's Avatar
No_Country
35
Rep
2,345
Posts

 
Drives: 2010 e70 X5 35d
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Renton, WA

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Panoz View Post
You are so lucky...we have nothing like this localy.

I wonder if i could send a sample of my oils to a Laboratory (Blackstone-like) by postal/courier and have the analysis done. Do anyone knows if this would be possible?
Blackstone indicates on their website that they receive oil samples from international sources. It might cost a little more to ship and/or take longer to get there, but I'm sure you can mail them your oil.

Check the link in the lower right corner:
http://www.blackstone-labs.com/postal_requirements.html
__________________
Scott
2010 E70 X5 35d
Alpine White on Black with Dark Bamboo trim
ZAP | ZCW | ZPP | ZPS | ZRC | ZTP | 322 | 328 | 330 | 386 | 4AZ | 4UB | 655 | 6FL | 6NF
2008 Ducati 1098S Red naturally....
Appreciate 0
      05-20-2008, 01:54 AM   #11
garyhgaryh
Major
garyhgaryh's Avatar
United_States
25
Rep
1,208
Posts

 
Drives: Supercharged e30 M3
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: santa cruz

iTrader: (4)

I'm a little suspicious of the results. If bmw collected the oil for your sample, it was probably drained in a oil tank like this. Even if they emptied it, all the heavy metals are at the bottom. But I doubt they'll empty it for ya so the oil the sample was probably a mix of yours and other cars. Just my guess and I'm not saying I am absolutely sure. It's a possibility.
Attached Images
 
Appreciate 0
      05-20-2008, 01:55 AM   #12
scollins
Bootleggin' 'n Gunrunnin'
scollins's Avatar
No_Country
35
Rep
2,345
Posts

 
Drives: 2010 e70 X5 35d
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Renton, WA

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by E30M3Driver View Post
Interesting. Maybe we should accept higher wear rates along with our higher oil temps as the new normal? WTF is BMW thinking?! Oh yeah, trade in and buy a new car every 50K miles.
It seems the higher temps don't affect the oil too badly, provided it is monitored and changed frequently. I've got ZSP and 6MT, so I've got the factory oil cooler. I've never seen the temp go over 250, but I've never tracked my car either.

Anyway, the viscosity in both reports is at the low end of the range after 4,000-5,000 miles roughly, and the TBN is getting close to marginal. So, while the oil temps may be elevated, I don't think it is an issue.

What I think is an issue is elevated oil temps and an unrealistic 15,000 mile oil change interval, especially with turbos. I don't know what BMW's "oil condition monitoring" is actually checking, but I don't think it really works that well.

As such, I'll be getting oil changes every 5,000 miles, even if it means paying out of pocket. I'd love to see an oil analysis from someone who waited until the car said to change it. Someone with a lease that doesn't give a shit maybe?
__________________
Scott
2010 E70 X5 35d
Alpine White on Black with Dark Bamboo trim
ZAP | ZCW | ZPP | ZPS | ZRC | ZTP | 322 | 328 | 330 | 386 | 4AZ | 4UB | 655 | 6FL | 6NF
2008 Ducati 1098S Red naturally....
Appreciate 0
      05-20-2008, 01:58 AM   #13
scollins
Bootleggin' 'n Gunrunnin'
scollins's Avatar
No_Country
35
Rep
2,345
Posts

 
Drives: 2010 e70 X5 35d
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Renton, WA

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by garyhgaryh View Post
I'm a little suspicious of the results. If bmw collected the oil for your sample, it was probably drained in a oil tank like this. Even if they emptied it, all the heavy metals are at the bottom. But I doubt they'll empty it for ya so the oil the sample was probably a mix of yours and other cars. Just my guess and I'm not saying I am absolutely sure. It's a possibility.
Yeah, that crossed my mind too. My next change will be done by the independent shop, and they said they had done sample pulls before. So I'm hoping they did it right on the first one.

But yes, I'm am aware of the possibility that the dealer contaminated the sample by not properly collecting it. I guess I could call the SA and ask him how it was collected.....
__________________
Scott
2010 E70 X5 35d
Alpine White on Black with Dark Bamboo trim
ZAP | ZCW | ZPP | ZPS | ZRC | ZTP | 322 | 328 | 330 | 386 | 4AZ | 4UB | 655 | 6FL | 6NF
2008 Ducati 1098S Red naturally....
Appreciate 0
      05-20-2008, 02:03 AM   #14
garyhgaryh
Major
garyhgaryh's Avatar
United_States
25
Rep
1,208
Posts

 
Drives: Supercharged e30 M3
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: santa cruz

iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by scollins View Post
Yeah, that crossed my mind too. My next change will be done by the independent shop, and they said they had done sample pulls before. So I'm hoping they did it right on the first one.

But yes, I'm am aware of the possibility that the dealer contaminated the sample by not properly collecting it. I guess I could call the SA and ask him how it was collected.....
Probably the best way would be to drain it yourself or tell the dealer how to do it (as if they would listen to you). As it is draining, stick the vial in the oil stream to collect it. You should not collect the stream that comes out the first few seconds as it holds the most "gunk" and will most likely skew the results.
Appreciate 0
      06-20-2009, 07:19 PM   #15
Camet11
New Member
2
Rep
21
Posts

 
Drives: 2007 Monoco Blue 335I
Join Date: May 2009
Location: El Segundo

iTrader: (0)

sorry to bump an old thread, but i'm going to send a quart of 11.5k mile oil (just changed oil & filter, very dirty) to 3 different labs for testing. Then i'm going to "erin brokovich" BMWNA for saying its ok for us to change every 15k miles. Now i know why everyone tells me to lease a bmw.

Last edited by Camet11; 06-23-2009 at 03:44 PM.
Appreciate 0
      06-20-2009, 07:25 PM   #16
ss134
Brigadier General
ss134's Avatar
United Kingdom
68
Rep
3,796
Posts

 
Drives: ...a hard bargain...
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Germany/UK

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for posting this info up- its great to have people on this forum who are willing to share their expieriences for the benefit of others.
Appreciate 0
      07-02-2009, 04:30 PM   #17
Camet11
New Member
2
Rep
21
Posts

 
Drives: 2007 Monoco Blue 335I
Join Date: May 2009
Location: El Segundo

iTrader: (0)

First Oil Report Received

Hey guys & gals I just got the first oil report back and as I thought, the oil was starting to oxidize heavily, showing high iron count (3 times the average) meaning pre-mature excessive wear on the cylinders, all rotating assembly, valve train, and any steel part sharing the oil.

At 210 degree F, the viscosity was already lost, so i cannot imagine how thin the oil gets with higher temperatures.

I will post as the other 2 lab reports come in
Appreciate 0
      07-02-2009, 04:50 PM   #18
MisterSkiMask
Lieutenant Colonel
36
Rep
1,940
Posts

 
Drives: I Can not say
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: you must not know

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camet11 View Post
Hey guys & gals I just got the first oil report back and as I thought, the oil was starting to oxidize heavily, showing high iron count (3 times the average) meaning pre-mature excessive wear on the cylinders, all rotating assembly, valve train, and any steel part sharing the oil.

At 210 degree F, the viscosity was already lost, so i cannot imagine how thin the oil gets with higher temperatures.

I will post as the other 2 lab reports come in
are you stock?
Appreciate 0
      07-02-2009, 05:04 PM   #19
Ramos
Colonel
Ramos's Avatar
53
Rep
2,127
Posts

 
Drives: 2014 M235
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: So-Cal

iTrader: (6)

Dude, may I recommend you send those results to BMWNA, AND write a letter to the Roundel magazine with your results, they publish every letter and that is usually a good way to get BMWNA's attention ...
Appreciate 0
      07-02-2009, 05:05 PM   #20
ontopofm
Lieutenant Colonel
28
Rep
1,548
Posts

 
Drives: stock
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: CA

iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camet11 View Post
Hey guys & gals I just got the first oil report back and as I thought, the oil was starting to oxidize heavily, showing high iron count (3 times the average) meaning pre-mature excessive wear on the cylinders, all rotating assembly, valve train, and any steel part sharing the oil.

At 210 degree F, the viscosity was already lost, so i cannot imagine how thin the oil gets with higher temperatures.

I will post as the other 2 lab reports come in
how many miles?
Appreciate 0
      07-03-2009, 11:15 AM   #21
scollins
Bootleggin' 'n Gunrunnin'
scollins's Avatar
No_Country
35
Rep
2,345
Posts

 
Drives: 2010 e70 X5 35d
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Renton, WA

iTrader: (3)

I've now had my oil changed (and tested) 4 times. Total miles at the time of this change was 19,000. According to BMW, I should have only had 1 oil change during that time and 1/3rd the way to second.

Here is the latest report. Doesn't look too bad, but I'm not going past 5-6,000 miles on the change interval.

This particular oil sample had a BMW CCA "Car Control Clinic" and a full track day (4 - 20 minute sessions) on it.
Attached Images
 
__________________
Scott
2010 E70 X5 35d
Alpine White on Black with Dark Bamboo trim
ZAP | ZCW | ZPP | ZPS | ZRC | ZTP | 322 | 328 | 330 | 386 | 4AZ | 4UB | 655 | 6FL | 6NF
2008 Ducati 1098S Red naturally....
Appreciate 0
      07-03-2009, 12:12 PM   #22
cbad335
Lieutenant Colonel
cbad335's Avatar
United_States
25
Rep
1,733
Posts

 
Drives: '09 E92 335i
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, CA

iTrader: (17)

Garage List
Thanks for sharing that info. It helps me feel justified in my frequent oil changes.
__________________

| 6MT | ZSP | ZPP |
Appreciate 0
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:25 PM.




e90post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST