E90Post
 


VIBE Motorsports
 
BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Why can't Shiv create a flash tune?



Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      07-05-2009, 03:52 PM   #1
onesuperboi
Major
 
onesuperboi's Avatar
 
Drives: '08 e92 335i COBB 4.01 Stage 1
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Bay Area, CA (Alameda)

Posts: 1,339
iTrader: (6)

Why can't Shiv create a flash tune?

I've been reading daily and keeping a lookout for new tunes. I really respect Shiv's tune and would pick it over any product out there, but I wanted to know why can't Shiv create a flash tune? There are other flash tune's available, so I don't know/understand why he can't offer a flash? Is it because he's worried about cannibalizing his current tune or is he lacking the hardware to do it? If he offered a flash tune, I would definitely get it from him.
onesuperboi is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      07-05-2009, 03:54 PM   #2
dmurray14
The Stig
 
dmurray14's Avatar
 
Drives: Quickly
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: US

Posts: 1,231
iTrader: (1)

Because he doesn't want to. I don't see flash tunes doing many of the things he can do with the piggyback, and I think he is comfortable with it.

I'd say if you want a flash, go buy a flash...
__________________
dmurray14 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      07-05-2009, 03:58 PM   #3
Army X5 S5
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Army X5 S5's Avatar
 
Drives: '11 X5 35i / '13 S5
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Deployed to Kuwait

Posts: 1,752
iTrader: (2)

One Major draw back I see on a flash is, if you don't have all your mods already installed, then your gonna have to re-flash every time you get a new mod... With a piggy back I think you have more options available with the various stages, personally I like the idea to change your tune on the fly based on your other bolt on mods, VS. every time i change parts I have to get re-flashed... I could be wrong though...
__________________

BMW X5 35i: Boopie Exhaust, Boopie Intercooler, K&N Drop in Filter...
Audi S5 2013 (Delivery Sept 2013): Mods pending review
Army X5 S5 is offline   No_Country
0
Reply With Quote
      07-05-2009, 04:02 PM   #4
onesuperboi
Major
 
onesuperboi's Avatar
 
Drives: '08 e92 335i COBB 4.01 Stage 1
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Bay Area, CA (Alameda)

Posts: 1,339
iTrader: (6)

I agree that none of the flashes out there are doing what his product is capable of; that's why I haven't purchased a flash. However, I don't feel comfortable messing around with my ecu box and therefore asked whether he is capable of creating a flash and if he is, why won't he? From the discussions I've seen, he would be able to have just as much, if not even more, control over the parameters with a flash as opposed to a piggy-back.

I understand that's it's not difficult to install the Procede, but I'm sure that people would want the convenience of flashing through the OBDII port. If he offered a flash, he would blow everyone out of the water, especially his main rival, JB3.
onesuperboi is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      07-05-2009, 04:03 PM   #5
bimmerboy
Captain
 
bimmerboy's Avatar
 
Drives: 135i
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Bay Area

Posts: 601
iTrader: (0)

i'm sure in 2-3 years he will. But for now, the $$$ is in the piggybacks, so for now most companies are focusing on them. I see it as an evolution of tuning, as many platforms always begin with piggybacks and then move on to flash tunes later... Its all about supply/demand
__________________
--2009 BSM 135i--
-Manual, Sport Package, BMW Assist
bimmerboy is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      07-05-2009, 04:08 PM   #6
onesuperboi
Major
 
onesuperboi's Avatar
 
Drives: '08 e92 335i COBB 4.01 Stage 1
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Bay Area, CA (Alameda)

Posts: 1,339
iTrader: (6)

I agree that there will be no options to change the tune on the fly. However, people still have to update their maps with a computer through a USB port as opposed to the OBDII port with flashes.
onesuperboi is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      07-05-2009, 04:15 PM   #7
onesuperboi
Major
 
onesuperboi's Avatar
 
Drives: '08 e92 335i COBB 4.01 Stage 1
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Bay Area, CA (Alameda)

Posts: 1,339
iTrader: (6)

I'm sure there is a high demand for a flash tune. People are still waiting for the results of the GIAC flash. People have waited for good results from ESS. People got the Dinan flashes, but seem disappointed.

Again, from all the reading I've done, Shiv is the best tuner for the 335. He has done a lot of research, has constantly updated and improved his product, and has the greatest innovations. I want a flash tune from him.
onesuperboi is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      07-05-2009, 04:23 PM   #8
scalbert
Major General
 
scalbert's Avatar
 
Drives: '08 E90 M3, '13 Volt, '08 Ody
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Woodstock, GA

Posts: 5,710
iTrader: (7)

It is on the road map.
scalbert is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      07-05-2009, 04:25 PM   #9
bimmerboy
Captain
 
bimmerboy's Avatar
 
Drives: 135i
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Bay Area

Posts: 601
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by onesuperboi View Post
I'm sure there is a high demand for a flash tune. People are still waiting for the results of the GIAC flash. People have waited for good results from ESS. People got the Dinan flashes, but seem disappointed.

Again, from all the reading I've done, Shiv is the best tuner for the 335. He has done a lot of research, has constantly updated and improved his product, and has the greatest innovations. I want a flash tune from him.

I disagree. There is no "best" tuner out there. Different tuners have different philosophies, and this shows in their tunes. Some tuners are all about peak power, some are all about midrange, some are conservative, some make balls-out tunes.... I would much rather have a great tune available from a variety of tuners, so that I(the consumer) can make a decision based on what suits my style the best.
__________________
--2009 BSM 135i--
-Manual, Sport Package, BMW Assist
bimmerboy is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      07-05-2009, 04:28 PM   #10
onesuperboi
Major
 
onesuperboi's Avatar
 
Drives: '08 e92 335i COBB 4.01 Stage 1
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Bay Area, CA (Alameda)

Posts: 1,339
iTrader: (6)

I hope so. I just want to know the reason why it hasn't been offered. Is it really because the piggyback solution is the best? Instead of making another version of his tune, a flash tune should be next.

BTW, I really appreciate the testing you've done in comparing tunes. I learned a lot. (Scalbert)
onesuperboi is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      07-05-2009, 04:28 PM   #11
dmurray14
The Stig
 
dmurray14's Avatar
 
Drives: Quickly
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: US

Posts: 1,231
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bimmerboy View Post
I disagree. There is no "best" tuner out there. Different tuners have different philosophies, and this shows in their tunes. Some tuners are all about peak power, some are all about midrange, some are conservative, some make balls-out tunes.... I would much rather have a great tune available from a variety of tuners, so that I(the consumer) can make a decision based on what suits my style the best.
Couldn't agree more.
__________________
dmurray14 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      07-05-2009, 04:29 PM   #12
onesuperboi
Major
 
onesuperboi's Avatar
 
Drives: '08 e92 335i COBB 4.01 Stage 1
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Bay Area, CA (Alameda)

Posts: 1,339
iTrader: (6)

Sorry, I should have said that IN MY OPINION, Shiv's tune is the best. I agree, the best tune is whatever people prefer and choose. Sorry, I didn't mean to start a tuner war. I just wanted to know why he didn't offer a flash? I would take it one step further and ask why Terry didn't offer a flash either, but I'm more interested with Shiv's product (especially with all the CANbus stuff).
onesuperboi is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      07-05-2009, 05:28 PM   #13
hotrod2448
grand poobah
 
hotrod2448's Avatar
 
Drives: E70 X5 SG, F10 535i
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Charlotte, NC

Posts: 2,015
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2011 335d  [0.00]
It will happen sooner or later. Once there is some solution for people to be able to flash the DME at home. It's the way the Evo and Subie markets went. They started out with the Exede and then gradually it became a flash with the exede and ultimately just a flash.
hotrod2448 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      07-05-2009, 05:36 PM   #14
ZTUNER
Lieutenant
 
Drives: 91 Z32TT, 2000 I30, 335i
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Sarasota

Posts: 528
iTrader: (0)

i would really like to see something like open ecu so we can tune our own cars.

Harry
ZTUNER is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      07-05-2009, 06:01 PM   #15
onesuperboi
Major
 
onesuperboi's Avatar
 
Drives: '08 e92 335i COBB 4.01 Stage 1
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Bay Area, CA (Alameda)

Posts: 1,339
iTrader: (6)

I read of the history of tuning subies and evos and that it progressed from piggybacks to flashes.

However, there are other companies that have created flash tunes already. I'm awaiting the results of the GIAC tune and from my understanding, they would allow you to flash via OBDII. So, if it's technically possible, why hasn't Shiv (or Terry), who are clearly the leaders of tuning for the N54 engine, been able to create a flash for us?
onesuperboi is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      07-05-2009, 06:31 PM   #16
GeorgeSmooth
Lieutenant
 
GeorgeSmooth's Avatar
 
Drives: 2008 E90 335i AT
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: South Africa

Posts: 568
iTrader: (0)

He won't create a flash tune because he can't mail it to you.
__________________
08 E90 335i AT RB Turbos -NX Wet Kit - Chiplogic Flash or Procede V5- M3 Diff - AE Exhaust- Forge Dv's - Helix Intercooler - AR DP's - P3 Boost Gauge - Vishnu Meth- Stett Chargepipe and CAI
09 C63
GeorgeSmooth is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      07-05-2009, 07:18 PM   #17
Humtek
Vishnu Powered
 
Humtek's Avatar
 
Drives: 335xi, S1000RR
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Proceding

Posts: 2,205
iTrader: (7)

I'd rather have to pay $1000 once and be able to go through the stages and my own pace. Compared to flashes where it is going to cost you $1000 each time to flash. Whether your buying the maps online and loading them with a tool similar to the BT, or mailing in your ECU.
__________________
2008 335xi Sedan | Titanium Silver | Black Dakota
PROcede v5 | Vishnu Exhaust | BMS DCI | AR Catless DPs | Helix FMIC | Stett Charge w/ Tial BOV | MORR VS8s | KWv3
Humtek is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      07-05-2009, 07:20 PM   #18
scalbert
Major General
 
scalbert's Avatar
 
Drives: '08 E90 M3, '13 Volt, '08 Ody
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Woodstock, GA

Posts: 5,710
iTrader: (7)

Quote:
Originally Posted by onesuperboi View Post
However, there are other companies that have created flash tunes already. I'm awaiting the results of the GIAC tune and from my understanding, they would allow you to flash via OBDII. So, if it's technically possible, why hasn't Shiv (or Terry), who are clearly the leaders of tuning for the N54 engine, been able to create a flash for us?
There are two steps to creating a flash.

Step 1: crack the DME/ECU and determining how to load the flash correctly and easily. So far, the companies that have flashes can only do this through their own mechanisms; meaning, you send your DME to them. This is hardly convenient for the masses although it is not a deal breaker IMO. But the other issue with the first is that it often causes issues with the second. The knowledge in cracking the ECU/DME may is strictly computer science/engineering. It does not mean the individual has any knowledge on how and why and engine reacts the way it does. All they may know are the bits and bytes per say.

There is an intermediate step which can fall on either party, determining what memory addresses control what.

That leads into the Step 2, which is to actually alter the data and create a tune. Often this may be done by someone who is comfortable with engine controls and the way the engine runs. However, they may not be extremely proficient in cracking encryption algorithms. This is where most tuners come into play. They may not create the upload/download method but do understand the how’s and whys of engine tuning.

Granted, there are some companies that employ both. But often it is a sub-contracting situation for the upload/download portion or vice versa. I cannot speak for Vishnu but I suspect the delay in creating a tune is in the availability of an easy download method which seems to be getting close. In addition, with the recent inclusion of CANBus data, the need is somewhat diminished for multiple reasons.
scalbert is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      07-05-2009, 07:45 PM   #19
Slidewayz
Major
 
Slidewayz's Avatar
 
Drives: 2007 335i
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Oakland, CA

Posts: 1,175
iTrader: (5)

The Cobb AccessPort is used to good effect for some applications.

This little gizmo flashes the ECU and can store multiple programs so you can always revert back to stock if needed. There's also some kind of facility for uploading new maps into it so they can get shoved into the ECU.
Slidewayz is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      07-05-2009, 08:15 PM   #20
onesuperboi
Major
 
onesuperboi's Avatar
 
Drives: '08 e92 335i COBB 4.01 Stage 1
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Bay Area, CA (Alameda)

Posts: 1,339
iTrader: (6)

Quote:
Originally Posted by scalbert View Post
There are two steps to creating a flash.

Step 1: crack the DME/ECU and determining how to load the flash correctly and easily. So far, the companies that have flashes can only do this through their own mechanisms; meaning, you send your DME to them. This is hardly convenient for the masses although it is not a deal breaker IMO. But the other issue with the first is that it often causes issues with the second. The knowledge in cracking the ECU/DME may is strictly computer science/engineering. It does not mean the individual has any knowledge on how and why and engine reacts the way it does. All they may know are the bits and bytes per say.

There is an intermediate step which can fall on either party, determining what memory addresses control what.

That leads into the Step 2, which is to actually alter the data and create a tune. Often this may be done by someone who is comfortable with engine controls and the way the engine runs. However, they may not be extremely proficient in cracking encryption algorithms. This is where most tuners come into play. They may not create the upload/download method but do understand the how’s and whys of engine tuning.

Granted, there are some companies that employ both. But often it is a sub-contracting situation for the upload/download portion or vice versa. I cannot speak for Vishnu but I suspect the delay in creating a tune is in the availability of an easy download method which seems to be getting close. In addition, with the recent inclusion of CANBus data, the need is somewhat diminished for multiple reasons.
I see. So, if I'm understanding you correctly, all that is lacking from either Shiv or Terry for them to get their tunes flashed is the technical aspect loading the tune...

I hope they will be able to do it soon for the consumers that just want to flash their cars. I know there are companies that do flash tunes, but I would only want a tune from one of these two guys since they have worked really hard in bringing out the best from our cars, they participate with us, and share their expertise.

Thank you for clarifying the issue and answering my question directly.
onesuperboi is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      07-05-2009, 09:57 PM   #21
ZTUNER
Lieutenant
 
Drives: 91 Z32TT, 2000 I30, 335i
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Sarasota

Posts: 528
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by onesuperboi View Post
I see. So, if I'm understanding you correctly, all that is lacking from either Shiv or Terry for them to get their tunes flashed is the technical aspect loading the tune...

I hope they will be able to do it soon for the consumers that just want to flash their cars. I know there are companies that do flash tunes, but I would only want a tune from one of these two guys since they have worked really hard in bringing out the best from our cars, they participate with us, and share their expertise.

Thank you for clarifying the issue and answering my question directly.
Not really - if i am not mistaken none of the piggys change the actual fuel / timing or other maps. They are simply modifying the signal from various sensors and fooling the ecu. ie there is nothing to "flash" onto the factory ecu.

Harry
ZTUNER is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      07-05-2009, 10:16 PM   #22
bimmerboy
Captain
 
bimmerboy's Avatar
 
Drives: 135i
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Bay Area

Posts: 601
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slidewayz View Post
The Cobb AccessPort is used to good effect for some applications.

This little gizmo flashes the ECU and can store multiple programs so you can always revert back to stock if needed. There's also some kind of facility for uploading new maps into it so they can get shoved into the ECU.
+1, this is what i used to run in my subaru, and it was amazing. I emailed cobb, but got a generic response.. Maybe more of us need to email cobb in order to show them a potential market for the accesport...

I think the rest of this year will be very interesting for n54 owners, as we will finally get to see some solid flash tunes become avaiable
__________________
--2009 BSM 135i--
-Manual, Sport Package, BMW Assist
bimmerboy is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:35 PM.




e90post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST