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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Why can't Shiv create a flash tune?



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      07-05-2009, 10:20 PM   #23
shiv@vishnu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onesuperboi View Post
I've been reading daily and keeping a lookout for new tunes. I really respect Shiv's tune and would pick it over any product out there, but I wanted to know why can't Shiv create a flash tune? There are other flash tune's available, so I don't know/understand why he can't offer a flash? Is it because he's worried about cannibalizing his current tune or is he lacking the hardware to do it? If he offered a flash tune, I would definitely get it from him.
We wont offer it because it can't be competitive with the PROcede in both features, performance and invisibility. So why bother?

Shiv
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      07-05-2009, 10:35 PM   #24
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How can it not be competitive or even better than Procede? Are you saying that if you are able to flash that you wouldn't be able to have the same features or even more control?

I can understand that it wouldn't be price competitive if we weren't able to flash on our own, but there is a market for flashes out there. I was just thinking that if you did offer a flash, that you would be able to become a leader in both piggybacks and flashes...

And the invisibility isn't a factor anymore in my opinion. Sure, we would have to revert to stock somehow by reflashing, but people do have remove the piggyback and remove codes before service in order to be invisible. Granted, you could leave the Procede in the car for service, clear codes, and run valet mode, but I think most people remove the Procede to be safe.

In the end, I really respect all your efforts in tuning the car. I have read about you even before I purchased my car and have seen the progress that you've made. I just hope that you would one day offer flashes.
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      07-05-2009, 11:49 PM   #25
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Features like O2 sim, traction nanny, multiple maps, code clearing and many more are why im still running a proceed. Not to mention its a well tuned, tune. The car drives and runs really good.
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      07-06-2009, 12:57 AM   #26
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Hi Guys,

I think there might be another problem with flashes ... there is no way to protect the intellectual property of the tune.

If you a tuner offered a self-flash kit, you can quickly simulate the flash storage on the ECU and see the writes and "ripoff" what they did.

If the ECU is cracked, you might be able to pull down the difference between a tuned ECU and a stock one.

In either case, if a tuner values the "artistic nature" of their tunes, there is no way to protect it using a flash based system. Any joe-shmoe (like me), could buy a flash tune from a hard working tuner and offer a cheaper tune that did the exact thing ... and not have any of the R&D costs to recoup.

Onesuperboi - I think the other thing Shiv may have been alluding to was the fact that if you play in the flash world, you are "limited" to the playground of the ECU. If you have an external system, you can do whatever you want.

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      07-06-2009, 07:48 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slidewayz View Post
The Cobb AccessPort is used to good effect for some applications.

This little gizmo flashes the ECU and can store multiple programs so you can always revert back to stock if needed. There's also some kind of facility for uploading new maps into it so they can get shoved into the ECU.
I'm no expert on the MSD80 DME but to my understanding there are some fundamental differences between the flashing process of these DMEs and those easily flashed with the Access Port/etc. As of right now at least, it seems flashing the DME is a pretty lengthy process (relatively) compared to the quick accessport and other flashes.
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      07-06-2009, 09:05 AM   #28
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not to mention experience or lack there of for programming the DME.

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      07-06-2009, 09:30 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Potty_Pants View Post
not to mention experience or lack there of for programming the DME.

ppp
Everyone needs to learn a new DME anyways. I don't get your point.
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      07-06-2009, 09:59 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by munters View Post
Everyone needs to learn a new DME anyways. I don't get your point.
(just discussing)

Everyone doesn't need to learn a new DME. I deal with similar situations on a monthly basis. You have two different ways of doing things one could have been done for many many years, the owner has a ton of time and money invested into it. The 2nd way may be better or just different.

Why should the owner of way #1 change his solution and be forced to start at square one for just minimal gain if any.

I dont believe change for the sake of change is good practice.


If your a customer would you have a plumber fix your house who has 40 years of experience and quality is undesputed vs a plumber fresh out of school who has a new way of plumbing. Which would you choose... there will be ones who choose the first and there may be a few "latest and greatest" that would choose the 2nd. If I wanted the new technology I wouldnt force it on the first plumber... I'd go with the 2nd.


personally Im a DME flash kinda guy.

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      07-06-2009, 12:19 PM   #31
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Exactly. I too want a flash tune, but I want a flash tune from someone that has proven their tuning abilities (Shiv or Terry). They have tons of experience, so I still don't understand why they haven't applied their skills in creating flashes yet when other new companies are. Again, it's not a lack of demand for flashes; there is plenty as you can see with the hype of the GIAC flash.
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      07-06-2009, 01:22 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
We wont offer it because it can't be competitive with the PROcede in both features, performance and invisibility. So why bother?

Shiv

Nice.
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      07-06-2009, 01:25 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
We wont offer it because it can't be competitive with the PROcede in both features, performance and invisibility. So why bother?

Shiv
Quote:
Originally Posted by onesuperboi View Post
Exactly. I too want a flash tune, but I want a flash tune from someone that has proven their tuning abilities (Shiv or Terry). They have tons of experience, so I still don't understand why they haven't applied their skills in creating flashes yet when other new companies are. Again, it's not a lack of demand for flashes; there is plenty as you can see with the hype of the GIAC flash.

Because, flashing was not an option until recently. There should be some good choices soon.
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      07-06-2009, 01:39 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
We wont offer it because it can't be competitive with the PROcede in both features, performance and invisibility. So why bother?

Shiv
I agree...why would Vishnu or Shiv want to do this? Frankly I am happy with the PROcede as a piggy and see no real advantage to the flash option? Maybe I am wrong but that is just my 2cents.

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      07-06-2009, 01:50 PM   #35
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I don't know much about flashes. Below are the pros and cons that I can see from what I've read:

Pros
1. Cheaper
2. Invisible
3. No taking your car apart to install for flashes uploaded via OBDII port.
4. The right tuner can work wonders.

Cons:
1. You either have to take it to dealer to flash; or
2. If you flash it yourself a mistake in uploading could be very expensive.
3. If you have to send your ECU off to have it flashed, downtime for your car.
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      07-06-2009, 02:01 PM   #36
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Flashing the ECU of the E9x is not a simple matter (like it is for the Evo). It requires very sophisticated programming and a stable electrical power backup platform.

IMO a flash is a more risky venture than the relatively simple hardware installation of a PNP piggy.

Lowest risk option is waiting for the BMW Perf tune, but that will be expensive and not as powerful as the high end piggys.
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      07-06-2009, 04:18 PM   #37
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OK. So it's not a viable option at this time... Can anyone speak for them as to if they are planning to create a flash tune in the future?

BTW, I'm getting my car serviced now and checked out (one year oil change- 11k miles). If everything is cool, after the next service at 15K, I am planning to get the Procede and try things out. In the mean time, they gave me a 128i loaner. Man... that thing is slow compared to the 335i. Thank god I got the n54 engine! =)
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      07-06-2009, 06:38 PM   #38
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Well it's also a business decision, the last 3 years or so of R&D were around using piggback technology, would it be wise to essentially scrap the majority of that and re-invest in all the infrastructure requires to develop a FLASH? Probably not... I mean if our cars were like older cars where we could buy spare ECU's and swap them in and out on top of having MUCH LESS complex ECU's to work with, it might be a good idea to bail out of the piggyback stuff.

On to the customer experience...Having the ability to totally remove the evidence of ECU tampering is very valueable to many customers (please leave the ethics arguments on another thread). Also the ability to sell the tune after end of leases etc is also a nice option.

Anyways I really don't want to go to deep into this, in the end this topic has beaten to death...Some people will want the flash for the simplicity of not having to deal with opening the ECU box and others like having the options that Piggy's provide... Boxers or briefs or boxer briefs... You get the picture??? Whatever floats your boat.... Just because I prefer brunettes doesn't mean the guy that prefers blondes is any less of a man....Lets just install our preferred tune and drive!!!!!

Hope everyone had a great 4th!
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      07-06-2009, 06:51 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joec500 View Post
Well it's also a business decision, the last 3 years or so of R&D were around using piggback technology, would it be wise to essentially scrap the majority of that and re-invest in all the infrastructure requires to develop a FLASH? Probably not...
That's what GM said.
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      07-06-2009, 06:57 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubbles View Post
That's what GM said.
HA....touche!!!!

Yes, Shiv does drive a Lambo, but he's def not in the realm of GM in regards to what he has to gain, lose or business complexity. He has a handful of platforms he tunes and is able to utilize the same tuning tool, the Procede Hardware. It works, he makes money we are happy...No complaints from me...But I do miss not having to deal harness installations when I had my GIAC'd Flashed Audis.
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      07-06-2009, 07:57 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joec500 View Post
HA....touche!!!!

Yes, Shiv does drive a Lambo, but he's def not in the realm of GM in regards to what he has to gain, lose or business complexity. He has a handful of platforms he tunes and is able to utilize the same tuning tool, the Procede Hardware. It works, he makes money we are happy...No complaints from me...But I do miss not having to deal harness installations when I had my GIAC'd Flashed Audis.

There is always the S4

"The tuners at MTM have begun tweaking the all-new 2010 Audi S4 (B8) in Europe, and as expected, Audi's new supercharged 333-hp 3.0-liter V6 is rife with potential. With only a revised ECU no underdrive pulley, intake or exhaust mods MTM was able to coax 430 crank horsepower out of the blown six 97 hp more than stock."

So pretty:
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      07-06-2009, 09:53 PM   #42
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I guess I what I was trying to find out why Shiv or Terry weren't offering flashes when other companies have started to. It seems that there are more flashes coming out than piggybacks if I'm not mistaken. What's the reason they didn't create piggyback units instead (for example GIAC)?

I'm not trying to discuss the pros/cons of pigggy vs flashes because it has been discussed a lot, just the reason these tuners aren't offering them, and if they plan to when?
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      07-06-2009, 09:53 PM   #43
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This powerplant looks very promising, as does the platform as a whole. My curiosity will be the chassis dynamics of this car vs my E92....
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      07-06-2009, 09:55 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onesuperboi View Post
I'm not trying to discuss the pros/cons of pigggy vs flashes, just the reason these tuners aren't offering them.
Pros/Cons and reasons are one in the same. Can't talk about one without the other.
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