E90Post
 


TNT Racewerks
 
BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Why can't Shiv create a flash tune?



Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      07-05-2009, 10:20 PM   #23
shiv@vishnu
Tuner
 
Drives: X1, 335i
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: SF Bay, CA

Posts: 17,616
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by onesuperboi View Post
I've been reading daily and keeping a lookout for new tunes. I really respect Shiv's tune and would pick it over any product out there, but I wanted to know why can't Shiv create a flash tune? There are other flash tune's available, so I don't know/understand why he can't offer a flash? Is it because he's worried about cannibalizing his current tune or is he lacking the hardware to do it? If he offered a flash tune, I would definitely get it from him.
We wont offer it because it can't be competitive with the PROcede in both features, performance and invisibility. So why bother?

Shiv
shiv@vishnu is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      07-05-2009, 10:35 PM   #24
onesuperboi
Major
 
onesuperboi's Avatar
 
Drives: '08 e92 335i COBB 4.01 Stage 1
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Bay Area, CA (Alameda)

Posts: 1,342
iTrader: (6)

How can it not be competitive or even better than Procede? Are you saying that if you are able to flash that you wouldn't be able to have the same features or even more control?

I can understand that it wouldn't be price competitive if we weren't able to flash on our own, but there is a market for flashes out there. I was just thinking that if you did offer a flash, that you would be able to become a leader in both piggybacks and flashes...

And the invisibility isn't a factor anymore in my opinion. Sure, we would have to revert to stock somehow by reflashing, but people do have remove the piggyback and remove codes before service in order to be invisible. Granted, you could leave the Procede in the car for service, clear codes, and run valet mode, but I think most people remove the Procede to be safe.

In the end, I really respect all your efforts in tuning the car. I have read about you even before I purchased my car and have seen the progress that you've made. I just hope that you would one day offer flashes.
onesuperboi is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      07-05-2009, 11:49 PM   #25
TMR
Colonel
 
TMR's Avatar
 
Drives: M3
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Torrance

Posts: 2,826
iTrader: (11)

Features like O2 sim, traction nanny, multiple maps, code clearing and many more are why im still running a proceed. Not to mention its a well tuned, tune. The car drives and runs really good.
TMR is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      07-06-2009, 12:57 AM   #26
StartupJunkie
First Lieutenant
 
StartupJunkie's Avatar
 
Drives: 07 BMW 335i Sedan+2 Baby Seats
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: SF South Bay Area, CA

Posts: 314
iTrader: (0)

Hi Guys,

I think there might be another problem with flashes ... there is no way to protect the intellectual property of the tune.

If you a tuner offered a self-flash kit, you can quickly simulate the flash storage on the ECU and see the writes and "ripoff" what they did.

If the ECU is cracked, you might be able to pull down the difference between a tuned ECU and a stock one.

In either case, if a tuner values the "artistic nature" of their tunes, there is no way to protect it using a flash based system. Any joe-shmoe (like me), could buy a flash tune from a hard working tuner and offer a cheaper tune that did the exact thing ... and not have any of the R&D costs to recoup.

Onesuperboi - I think the other thing Shiv may have been alluding to was the fact that if you play in the flash world, you are "limited" to the playground of the ECU. If you have an external system, you can do whatever you want.

Junk
__________________
11.535@124.423mph (1.641 60') - AutoTune 7-27, Race+Meth, Best ET w/ only 80% throttle 1st and 2nd
11.647@121.356mph (1.590 60') - AutoTune (beta pre-5-15), Race Gas, No METH

Perf Mods: Vishnu PROcede Rev3 v5, Vishnu PWM Meth Kit, AR Design DPs, AE Exhaust, Helix FMIC, Vishnu DCI, Forge DV, WaveTrac LSD (Best Trap - 124.665mph)
StartupJunkie is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      07-06-2009, 07:48 AM   #27
dmurray14
The Stig
 
dmurray14's Avatar
 
Drives: Quickly
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: US

Posts: 1,232
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slidewayz View Post
The Cobb AccessPort is used to good effect for some applications.

This little gizmo flashes the ECU and can store multiple programs so you can always revert back to stock if needed. There's also some kind of facility for uploading new maps into it so they can get shoved into the ECU.
I'm no expert on the MSD80 DME but to my understanding there are some fundamental differences between the flashing process of these DMEs and those easily flashed with the Access Port/etc. As of right now at least, it seems flashing the DME is a pretty lengthy process (relatively) compared to the quick accessport and other flashes.
__________________
dmurray14 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      07-06-2009, 09:05 AM   #28
Potty_Pants
Colonel
 
Potty_Pants's Avatar
 
Drives: 2012 Genesis Sedan Rspec
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Southern NJ

Posts: 2,191
iTrader: (0)

not to mention experience or lack there of for programming the DME.

ppp
__________________
Olds Starfire > Chevy Malibu > Isuzu I-mark RS & Honda Magna 500 > Grand Am GT & YSR50 > Nissan Maxima & Ninja 750 > X-Wife > Hyundai Excel > Honda Prelude > Honda Accord > Honda Prelude & Ninja 250> Infiniti G35 > E90 335i > Hyundai Genesis Rspec, Hyunadai Sonata > Kia Sorento > Honda CRV-EX
Potty_Pants is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      07-06-2009, 09:30 AM   #29
munters
Captain
 
munters's Avatar
 
Drives: E91 335XI AT Dakota Black M
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Switzerland

Posts: 675
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Potty_Pants View Post
not to mention experience or lack there of for programming the DME.

ppp
Everyone needs to learn a new DME anyways. I don't get your point.
__________________
59 Corvette, 72 240Z, 73 Espada, ZXR
munters is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      07-06-2009, 09:59 AM   #30
Potty_Pants
Colonel
 
Potty_Pants's Avatar
 
Drives: 2012 Genesis Sedan Rspec
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Southern NJ

Posts: 2,191
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by munters View Post
Everyone needs to learn a new DME anyways. I don't get your point.
(just discussing)

Everyone doesn't need to learn a new DME. I deal with similar situations on a monthly basis. You have two different ways of doing things one could have been done for many many years, the owner has a ton of time and money invested into it. The 2nd way may be better or just different.

Why should the owner of way #1 change his solution and be forced to start at square one for just minimal gain if any.

I dont believe change for the sake of change is good practice.


If your a customer would you have a plumber fix your house who has 40 years of experience and quality is undesputed vs a plumber fresh out of school who has a new way of plumbing. Which would you choose... there will be ones who choose the first and there may be a few "latest and greatest" that would choose the 2nd. If I wanted the new technology I wouldnt force it on the first plumber... I'd go with the 2nd.


personally Im a DME flash kinda guy.

ppp
__________________
Olds Starfire > Chevy Malibu > Isuzu I-mark RS & Honda Magna 500 > Grand Am GT & YSR50 > Nissan Maxima & Ninja 750 > X-Wife > Hyundai Excel > Honda Prelude > Honda Accord > Honda Prelude & Ninja 250> Infiniti G35 > E90 335i > Hyundai Genesis Rspec, Hyunadai Sonata > Kia Sorento > Honda CRV-EX
Potty_Pants is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      07-06-2009, 12:19 PM   #31
onesuperboi
Major
 
onesuperboi's Avatar
 
Drives: '08 e92 335i COBB 4.01 Stage 1
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Bay Area, CA (Alameda)

Posts: 1,342
iTrader: (6)

Exactly. I too want a flash tune, but I want a flash tune from someone that has proven their tuning abilities (Shiv or Terry). They have tons of experience, so I still don't understand why they haven't applied their skills in creating flashes yet when other new companies are. Again, it's not a lack of demand for flashes; there is plenty as you can see with the hype of the GIAC flash.
onesuperboi is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      07-06-2009, 01:22 PM   #32
Bubbles
Green Bastard
 
Bubbles's Avatar
 
Drives: ZCP-Powered
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Bishop Bend

Posts: 3,550
iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
We wont offer it because it can't be competitive with the PROcede in both features, performance and invisibility. So why bother?

Shiv

Nice.
__________________
Bubbles is offline   Cayman Islands
0
Reply With Quote
      07-06-2009, 01:25 PM   #33
Bubbles
Green Bastard
 
Bubbles's Avatar
 
Drives: ZCP-Powered
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Bishop Bend

Posts: 3,550
iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
We wont offer it because it can't be competitive with the PROcede in both features, performance and invisibility. So why bother?

Shiv
Quote:
Originally Posted by onesuperboi View Post
Exactly. I too want a flash tune, but I want a flash tune from someone that has proven their tuning abilities (Shiv or Terry). They have tons of experience, so I still don't understand why they haven't applied their skills in creating flashes yet when other new companies are. Again, it's not a lack of demand for flashes; there is plenty as you can see with the hype of the GIAC flash.

Because, flashing was not an option until recently. There should be some good choices soon.
__________________
Bubbles is offline   Cayman Islands
0
Reply With Quote
      07-06-2009, 01:39 PM   #34
cincy335i
Lieutenant
 
cincy335i's Avatar
 
Drives: '08 Black Saph 335i coupe 6mt
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

Posts: 418
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
We wont offer it because it can't be competitive with the PROcede in both features, performance and invisibility. So why bother?

Shiv
I agree...why would Vishnu or Shiv want to do this? Frankly I am happy with the PROcede as a piggy and see no real advantage to the flash option? Maybe I am wrong but that is just my 2cents.

__________________
Performance |PROcede V5|Stett CAI|UUC/Corsa Exhaust|AA Intercooler|RPI Scoops|Stett Charge Pipe w/Forge DV's|UUC Evo3 SSK/DSSR|Mod CDV Style |Aero Lip|Aero rear|Aero Spoiler|M-Tech Side Skirts|Black Calipers|Black Grille|Black Shadow emblem|Black Vinyl Wrapped Window Trim|35%Tint|Tinted Tails|Style 230 19"rims|Lux H8'sTech |Nav|Cold Weather|Premium|Comfort Access|Sport|
cincy335i is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      07-06-2009, 01:50 PM   #35
lawdude
Colonel
 
lawdude's Avatar
 
Drives: 335i ZPP ZSP TiAg MT
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Georgia

Posts: 2,259
iTrader: (1)

I don't know much about flashes. Below are the pros and cons that I can see from what I've read:

Pros
1. Cheaper
2. Invisible
3. No taking your car apart to install for flashes uploaded via OBDII port.
4. The right tuner can work wonders.

Cons:
1. You either have to take it to dealer to flash; or
2. If you flash it yourself a mistake in uploading could be very expensive.
3. If you have to send your ECU off to have it flashed, downtime for your car.
__________________
What do I know? I'm insane.
lawdude is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      07-06-2009, 02:01 PM   #36
stressdoc
Moderator
 
stressdoc's Avatar
 
Drives: F80 YMB
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: MO

Posts: 10,127
iTrader: (0)

Flashing the ECU of the E9x is not a simple matter (like it is for the Evo). It requires very sophisticated programming and a stable electrical power backup platform.

IMO a flash is a more risky venture than the relatively simple hardware installation of a PNP piggy.

Lowest risk option is waiting for the BMW Perf tune, but that will be expensive and not as powerful as the high end piggys.
stressdoc is offline   Dominica
0
Reply With Quote
      07-06-2009, 04:18 PM   #37
onesuperboi
Major
 
onesuperboi's Avatar
 
Drives: '08 e92 335i COBB 4.01 Stage 1
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Bay Area, CA (Alameda)

Posts: 1,342
iTrader: (6)

OK. So it's not a viable option at this time... Can anyone speak for them as to if they are planning to create a flash tune in the future?

BTW, I'm getting my car serviced now and checked out (one year oil change- 11k miles). If everything is cool, after the next service at 15K, I am planning to get the Procede and try things out. In the mean time, they gave me a 128i loaner. Man... that thing is slow compared to the 335i. Thank god I got the n54 engine! =)
onesuperboi is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      07-06-2009, 06:38 PM   #38
joec500
Brigadier General
 
Drives: it has 4 wheels
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: San Francisco

Posts: 3,004
iTrader: (10)

Well it's also a business decision, the last 3 years or so of R&D were around using piggback technology, would it be wise to essentially scrap the majority of that and re-invest in all the infrastructure requires to develop a FLASH? Probably not... I mean if our cars were like older cars where we could buy spare ECU's and swap them in and out on top of having MUCH LESS complex ECU's to work with, it might be a good idea to bail out of the piggyback stuff.

On to the customer experience...Having the ability to totally remove the evidence of ECU tampering is very valueable to many customers (please leave the ethics arguments on another thread). Also the ability to sell the tune after end of leases etc is also a nice option.

Anyways I really don't want to go to deep into this, in the end this topic has beaten to death...Some people will want the flash for the simplicity of not having to deal with opening the ECU box and others like having the options that Piggy's provide... Boxers or briefs or boxer briefs... You get the picture??? Whatever floats your boat.... Just because I prefer brunettes doesn't mean the guy that prefers blondes is any less of a man....Lets just install our preferred tune and drive!!!!!

Hope everyone had a great 4th!
joec500 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      07-06-2009, 06:51 PM   #39
Bubbles
Green Bastard
 
Bubbles's Avatar
 
Drives: ZCP-Powered
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Bishop Bend

Posts: 3,550
iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by joec500 View Post
Well it's also a business decision, the last 3 years or so of R&D were around using piggback technology, would it be wise to essentially scrap the majority of that and re-invest in all the infrastructure requires to develop a FLASH? Probably not...
That's what GM said.
__________________
Bubbles is offline   Cayman Islands
0
Reply With Quote
      07-06-2009, 06:57 PM   #40
joec500
Brigadier General
 
Drives: it has 4 wheels
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: San Francisco

Posts: 3,004
iTrader: (10)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubbles View Post
That's what GM said.
HA....touche!!!!

Yes, Shiv does drive a Lambo, but he's def not in the realm of GM in regards to what he has to gain, lose or business complexity. He has a handful of platforms he tunes and is able to utilize the same tuning tool, the Procede Hardware. It works, he makes money we are happy...No complaints from me...But I do miss not having to deal harness installations when I had my GIAC'd Flashed Audis.
joec500 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      07-06-2009, 07:57 PM   #41
Bubbles
Green Bastard
 
Bubbles's Avatar
 
Drives: ZCP-Powered
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Bishop Bend

Posts: 3,550
iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by joec500 View Post
HA....touche!!!!

Yes, Shiv does drive a Lambo, but he's def not in the realm of GM in regards to what he has to gain, lose or business complexity. He has a handful of platforms he tunes and is able to utilize the same tuning tool, the Procede Hardware. It works, he makes money we are happy...No complaints from me...But I do miss not having to deal harness installations when I had my GIAC'd Flashed Audis.

There is always the S4

"The tuners at MTM have begun tweaking the all-new 2010 Audi S4 (B8) in Europe, and as expected, Audi's new supercharged 333-hp 3.0-liter V6 is rife with potential. With only a revised ECU no underdrive pulley, intake or exhaust mods MTM was able to coax 430 crank horsepower out of the blown six 97 hp more than stock."

So pretty:
__________________
Bubbles is offline   Cayman Islands
0
Reply With Quote
      07-06-2009, 09:53 PM   #42
onesuperboi
Major
 
onesuperboi's Avatar
 
Drives: '08 e92 335i COBB 4.01 Stage 1
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Bay Area, CA (Alameda)

Posts: 1,342
iTrader: (6)

I guess I what I was trying to find out why Shiv or Terry weren't offering flashes when other companies have started to. It seems that there are more flashes coming out than piggybacks if I'm not mistaken. What's the reason they didn't create piggyback units instead (for example GIAC)?

I'm not trying to discuss the pros/cons of pigggy vs flashes because it has been discussed a lot, just the reason these tuners aren't offering them, and if they plan to when?
onesuperboi is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      07-06-2009, 09:53 PM   #43
joec500
Brigadier General
 
Drives: it has 4 wheels
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: San Francisco

Posts: 3,004
iTrader: (10)

This powerplant looks very promising, as does the platform as a whole. My curiosity will be the chassis dynamics of this car vs my E92....
joec500 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      07-06-2009, 09:55 PM   #44
scottp999
Brigadier General
 
scottp999's Avatar
 
Drives: 335i - E92 - 6MT & 4runner SR5
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: MD

Posts: 4,639
iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2007 BMW 335  [4.50]
Quote:
Originally Posted by onesuperboi View Post
I'm not trying to discuss the pros/cons of pigggy vs flashes, just the reason these tuners aren't offering them.
Pros/Cons and reasons are one in the same. Can't talk about one without the other.
__________________
Rob Beck Turbos, PROcede Rev. 3, Procede Fueling Flash (via OpenFlash Tablet), PPS Methanol System (Devil's Own 12 GPH Nozzle/Aquamist Flow Sensor/Labonte VC25), DCI, Quaife LSD, BMW Performance Suspension, Autobahn Exotics Exhaust, Helix FMIC, AR Design Downpipes, BSH Catch Can, Forge Diverter Valves, P3cars Vent Boost Gauge, Alufelgen CSL Reps, Lux 5.1 H8 Angel Eyes, HPB HID Fogs, LTBMW M3 Side Skirts, BMW M3 Rear Spoiler, BMW Front Aero Lip, BMW Pedal Kit, BMW M Shift Knob, Autotecknic Matte Black Grilles.
scottp999 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:40 AM.




e90post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST