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      07-15-2009, 12:29 PM   #1
alanchan
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dispute traffic ticket, please comment

do you guys think this would work?
I guess this should be in BC, not other provinces.

I can't vouch for this, but a guy I know has done this and it worked for him in Port Alberni recently, this is what he sent to me:

Well, there is a better method of dealing with traffic tickets, or parking tickets for that matter. Refuse to play ball in their system, and use yours instead.

Traffic tickets issued are governed under the Equities Act. For all intents and purposes it is a "Bill of Exchange". I want you to remember that phrase, you are going to use it when the officer asks you to sign the ticket, which you are permitted to refuse. Look them squarely in the eye and say, "Officer, I recognize that as a Bill of Exchange. I will require the original, in order to properly pay it". While you're at it, do yourself a favor, keep a notepad and pen in your vehicle. You want to make notes of your encounter.

If you feel like showing the officer you are not afraid of him, you can go a step further. Any officer who interacts with you and asks you to provide him with identification and/or insurance and registration forms is legally required to provide you with three things, upon demand by you. "Officer, I'm going to need a copy of your business card, your photo id, and your badge." ** Now, trust me, he will not like that you have asked for it - but he is obliged to provide it to you. Just remember, this guy is packing heat - if he refuses to provide any of it to you - make complete precise notes with the date and time and don't go out of your way to piss him off. If you have a cell phone, or some other audio or video/audio recording device, you should already have turned it on before he even got to your window. It can come in handy down the road.

But at the very least, tell the officer you recognize the ticket as a Bill of Exchange and that you can only pay an original document. A copy will not be good enough for you. Of course, he cannot provide you with an original - this is their trick of putting you into dishonor immediately upon receiving the ticket and playing the game their way.

What you want to do within THREE business days, is to take that copy to a Notary Public and ask them to stamp it "DISPUTED - IMPROPERLY SERVED". You are not going to pay a bill that is not an original. In my business and personal dealings with any organization or individual, I must receive an ORIGINAL invoice - or I will not pay it.

Do not, under any circumstances, play the game their way. They would like you to follow the instructions imprinted on the reverse of the ticket. Do not do this. Ignore those instructions. Yes, they tell you on the reverse of the ticket what you should do if you want to dispute the ticket. If you follow those instructions, you haven fallen into the trap and are playing the game the way they want you to. Don't do it.

You may not believe this will work, but it will. Notary Publics are prohibited from advertising their services. This is one example why that is.

A notary public can do many things that lawyers do. In many cases, they have even more power. Did you know that a Notary Public can even issue default judgments? Have a problem with someone not paying their bill? Don't go to a lawyer. Go see a Notary Public.
--------------

(I wonder how much a Notary Public would charge to do this...)
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Last edited by alanchan; 07-15-2009 at 01:34 PM.
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      07-15-2009, 01:27 PM   #2
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I'm not too sure this would work all that well - but I'm not a lawyer ... any lawyers in the house?


First, the Highway Traffic Act is different in all the provinces (albeit mostly the same ni each province) so you might want to be careful with the information in the post above.

Second - I know that in Toronto, cops have a lot of power (a little too much if you ask me) so being confrontational with a cop in Toronto (asking him for ID, business card, etc. can be quite insulting and) could sometimes lead you to a day spent at the police station and having your car towed. You definitely don't want that for a measly traffic ticket that you can fight in court anyway. You can say you're recording him, but I don't think they really care all that much ... Remember those Peel cops who beat up a Mississauga guy for video taping them in for getting high and drunk on contraband every month? Those fcuking cops eventually got off with only a slap on the wrist ... btw, that guy had to go into hiding for like 2 years for fear of those cops friends.


I didn't know about the notary public though, that's interesting.
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      07-15-2009, 04:49 PM   #3
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Interesting. Thanks for sharing.
I usually just pay the ticket quickly and get a small discount off the fine, because it was my fault to break a rule. But this is good information and another option for us.
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      07-15-2009, 05:07 PM   #4
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when the cops give you a ticket... if you didnt put a signature, are you still required to pay for the ticket?

sorry off the topic....
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      07-15-2009, 05:48 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e90sexion View Post
when the cops give you a ticket... if you didnt put a signature, are you still required to pay for the ticket?

sorry off the topic....
like my friend said, you don't need to sign it.
your options are pay or dispute.

another friend of mine got stop by a cop
he unbuckled his seat belt to reach for the glove compartment box to get the ICBC paper for the cop.
at the end, the cop gave him a ticket for not wearing seat belt.
WTF....
can you belive that????
this is in Vancouver too, so if you were the one, will you dispute or pay?
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      07-15-2009, 06:52 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanchan View Post
like my friend said, you don't need to sign it.
your options are pay or dispute.

another friend of mine got stop by a cop
he unbuckled his seat belt to reach for the glove compartment box to get the ICBC paper for the cop.
at the end, the cop gave him a ticket for not wearing seat belt.
WTF....
can you belive that????
this is in Vancouver too, so if you were the one, will you dispute or pay?
Same thing happened to my dad. He unbuckled thinking the cop might ask him to get out of the car. And got a ticket.
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      07-15-2009, 08:08 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e90sexion View Post
when the cops give you a ticket... if you didn't put a signature, are you still required to pay for the ticket?

sorry off the topic....
Yes you still required to follow the directions and options on the back of the ticket.

In GTA (Metro, Peel, York) their is no signature requirement. Cop gives you ticket with envelop. Advises you to read the back of your options and advises you that you have a right to challenge it in the Traffic Court.
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      07-15-2009, 09:32 PM   #8
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this info is interesting, good read!

this is kind of OT, but i got a ticket for front window tint over a year and half ago, and i disputed it, and i never got a letter advising me of my court date.....does anyone know if i am off the hook now or something??
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      07-15-2009, 09:32 PM   #9
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I'm by no means an expert and/or legal adviser on this subject and purely speaking from my personal experience.

I've had my share of tickets approx 15 over the past 20 years. Please don't think that it's something I'm proud of nor do I consider myself a rebel or bad driver. I just enjoy fast spirited driving. My tickets ranged from Speeding, Careless Driving, Unnecessary noise, not wearing seatbelt, Headlight, Going through intersection during restricted time. The first ticket I got was the day I bought my first car approx 20 years ago and drove home. The next 9 during the first 2 years, I was in my early 20's and was driving Moded Olds 2dr Midnight Black Cutlas Supreme with 350HP to the crank... I called it Cop magnet


Luckily to the precedence set by Regina v. Askov, [1990] 2 S.C.R. 1199 (Supreme Court of Canada) in early 90's due to court back log or Cop not showing and doing my homework out of those tickets 8 were thrown out. One I had to fight, Unnecessary noise. The cop showed up, Judge wouldn't dismiss it based on Regina v. Askov precedence, Crown Attorney was prepared to proceed and I was ready to defend myself make story short Judge ruled in my favor based on defense I presented.



The other ticket Careless driving I've negotiated with Cop and Crown to reduce it down to making right turn on red with out stopping. Certainly 2 demerits beats 6 demerits points and 50% insurance increase.

Then I had smooth sailing for 16 years with only 2 tickets, one got dismissed, cop didn't show up the other I took the offer of reduced speed and fine with no demerits when I saw cop in the court and I had no defense to fight it.

Like they say "when it rains it pours". In the past 1.5 years got charged with 3 Traffic violations. Speeding, Careless driving for rear ending the guy and the last one what could of been border line racing/careless driving charge was only unsafe lane change. Careless Driving was reduced to Failed Turn Out to Avoid Collision with reduced the fine from $350 to $110. I did hire Traffic defender to represent me.



The Speeding waiting for a new trial date after the Crown requested for adjournment during first court appearance.



The unsafe lane change waiting for a trial date.

So what have I learned from my experiences. The last thing you want to do is to be an ass to the cop no matter what your personal feelings and his conduct, show them respect they're doing their job even on the days they're pulling you over for minor infraction to meet their end month quota. They're in power when you're pulled over, act like a jack ass and they'll make sure to give maximum ticket for traffic violation you committed with no breaks and make notes in their note book of your conduct. If you or your representative decides to fight it in the court and the cop shows up he'll advise Crown not to settle it during your opportunity before appearing in front of the Justice of the Peace and pursue the case with no reduction of fine or charge and make sure to state your conduct based on the notes they've taken.



The following url is a good outline http://www.chiff.com/legal/traffic-violations.htm what you should do when you're pulled over and a good starting point if you decide to pursue your constitutional right to have a day in court to defend your innocence.
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      07-15-2009, 09:43 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ehhhwik View Post
this info is interesting, good read!

this is kind of OT, but i got a ticket for front window tint over a year and half ago, and i disputed it, and i never got a letter advising me of my court date.....does anyone know if i am off the hook now or something??
I suggest you go to court where you filed your ticket I'm assuming with plea not guilty and requesting court date. To make sure the letter of summons for court appearance wasn't lost by post office or .....

If the summons was sent even though you didn't receive it and therefore you didn't appear to defend yourself you'll be charged with traffic offense. If that happens there are venues to re-open or/and appeal your case to get new date and offense stricken from your record until your new court appearance.
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      07-16-2009, 08:01 AM   #11
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ah shit... i think i past my court day for disputing a ticket of mine worth $400. What happens if i miss the court date LMFAO
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      07-16-2009, 10:13 AM   #12
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Not sure what this topic is about, but if you speed, get caught, and get a ticket ... just pay it.

Just something you have to deal with when breaking the law. Not much to argue about here ...
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      07-16-2009, 12:29 PM   #13
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that is a interesting info!
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      07-16-2009, 02:41 PM   #14
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interesting point about the Notary......unsure of how it would work, but i'll look into it....

another approach that has apparently worked for some friends in the past is to schedule a court date, and then just at the deadline of having to notify to reschedule, call and say you can't make it, and reschedule the date. the reasoning behind this is apparently the cops are given certain days off in their schedule for court appearances, and so an attempt would be made to try to schedule a particular cop's cases on those days. If last minute you cancel, and reschedule, it makes it potentially more difficult for the date to be on the cops dedicated court day(s), and your chance that he/she won't show is therefore, potentially, emphasis on potentially, greater.......

worth a try, i would say.....
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      07-16-2009, 03:01 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kosaic View Post
Not sure what this topic is about, but if you speed, get caught, and get a ticket ... just pay it.

Just something you have to deal with when breaking the law. Not much to argue about here ...

Maybe that's ok out east ... but what's happening in Toronto is outrageous imo.

There's more than a few threads about tickets in the GTA. I just read one with Jim Kenzie's article - his opinions of Toronto traffic ticketing is clear to me if you read between the lines; not that I value all of his opinions all that much but atleast he's a notable public figure who also disagrees with what local law enforcement is doing and made a publis statement about it.

In Toronto, if you get a ticket - just fight it. Yea you were probably speeding and breaking the law, but technically 5 kph over the limit or coming to a rolling stop at a light or stop sign is also breaking the law.

Traffic enforcement shouldn't be black and white, and abusing it is literally highway robbery.


Anyone get a ticket for not having a bell on their bicycle yet? I heard the police are beginning to crack down on this too ... cash grab ... that's just ghey - I can't believe our police have nothing better to do.
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      07-16-2009, 04:36 PM   #16
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Quote:
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reschedule the date. ...
good point, will they let you reschedule?
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      07-16-2009, 08:19 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kosaic View Post
Not sure what this topic is about, but if you speed, get caught, and get a ticket ... just pay it.

Just something you have to deal with when breaking the law. Not much to argue about here ...
That is certainly your choice and be part of 96% of the people who get speeding tickets and just blindly pay to help government revenue because we don't pay enough taxes in Canada right ..... and as we look around our roads and highways, education school system and health care falling apart. They need people like you mindlessly fork out $$$ and make insurance companies reach.

Based on US studies average cost of speeding ticket is $851 when you take into consideration Higher insurance rates for the next 3-7 years depending where you live, that you will get slapped with on top of the fine. The amount of money you'll to the insurance is nearly five times more than the cost of your ticket and stays on Insurance file in Ontario for 7 years even though on MTO files for only 5.... I wonder why....


I'll re-quote two article since I agree with them 100%

"First, you need to know a few facts regarding the speeding ticket industry
If you got busted for speeding, whether you were guilty or not, you fell into a colossal government/insurance company, money-sucking machine.....
The Big, Ugly Picture...

Estimates are that over 115,000 speeding tickets are written every single day in the United States.
That's a heck of A LOT of people! In one year, that's nearly 42,000,000 speeding tickets (roughly 21% of all licensed drivers)! Let's do some simple math based on easy to find statistics to put this in perspective...
The average speeding ticket is about a $150 fine (just look at your own ticket).
$150 fine x 115,000 daily tickets = $17,250,000 total daily fines.
If we multiply $17,250,000 daily fines by 365 days, we get $6,296,250,000 (6.3 billion dollars in yearly fines).
That should get speeding ticket fines as an industry into Forbes Fortune 500... don't you think?.....

Did you know that insurance companies often underwrite the cost of expensive radar and laser guns and GIVE THEM to troopers? Why do you think they do that? I can assure you it isn't from the goodness of their heart." You can read the rest on the website http://www.beatmyspeedingticket.com/

Second Article:
The AutoBahn
"Despite the general high speeds, the accident and death rate on the Autobahn is relatively low. Autobahn crashes account for only 10% of national traffic fatalities and, in fact, the fatality rate is lower on the Autobahn than on US Interstates."

We've all heard it before from the police, driver's ed classes, defensive driving classes, government officials, and many more that speed kills and the way to be safe on the road is to have low speed limits. Then tell me why then is the Autobahn, at which traffic averages 120 MPH, the safest highway in the world. In fact, the autobahn goes as far as to have absolutely no speed limit through parts of it. Speed doesn't kill, bad drivers do. Why is the autobahn safer than most US highways when the average speed is twice the legal limit? There are many reasons which will be pointed out in the links below but I'll give you a basic summary. It's highly maintained and always in excellent condition. Passing is only allowed on the left and things such as cellphones and eating while driving are strictly enforced. Drunk driving is not tolerated at all and can result in losing your license forever. This page was created to educate people about the speed limit and how there should be an autobahn in the US. I didn't realize until recently just how safe the autobahn is and I would bet less than 1% of America realizes this. This will probably not be a reality as the government cares more about revenue from speeding tickets than the actual safety of its citizens on the roads." http://www.rapidcars.com/autobahn.php

I hope this helps people to stop and think for a minute before they go and blindly feed the money generating machine.
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      07-18-2009, 01:05 PM   #18
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Belarus ... brilliant post.

I'll share my own story of first hand experience of the government and insurance companies robbing people ...


My dad got a speeding ticket for going 65 kph in a 50 kph zone near his house (he was actually going 67kph). My dad is about 60 years old and drives a 2001 pathfinder. The ticket was the end of the month and clearly a quota ticket from the pig. He decided it's only $85 so just pay it. I told him to fight it but he didn't listen.

about 9 months later, he got another ticket for going 70 in a 60 ... only 10 over in a speed trap also near his home. The cop also dinged him for failure to wear a seatbelt ticket. I told him to fight these tickets because you don't know what can happen to insurance. He didn't listen ... I think he just didn't want to go to court because his English isn't perfect, but trust me it's far beyond enough to get by in traffic court. I even told him I would go fight it for him.


Then about 1 month later he had to make a claim for about $2000 in damage from a hit and run (my parents don't live in the nicest of areas), but no fault claim.

Then he got insurance renewal papers for the following year. His insurance was going to be $7500 per year!! It went from $1400 in the prior years for the last 20 years with this insurance company (Royal Sun) to $7500! WTF?!! When he asked they told him it's because of the tickets.

He tried to swtich carriers and almost all of them won't even insure him. The lowest we could find was $4500 for just collision and liability only (not comprehensive) ... for a 2001 Pathfinder worth about $5 right now ... for a 60 year old man. Does that even seem fair? Right now he is on facility insurance.

This was all a couple of years ago and insurance has dropped to around $3k now, but for 3 years he paid $14,000 in insurance becuase he didn't bother to fight his tickets.


Trust me when I say my dad is not driving menace or a speeder or wreckless in any way - me and all my friends are far more aggressive drivers. I have friends with bikes that split lanes, riced up imports who used to street race and no one I know was paying as much as my dad for car insurance. 3 really stupid tickets caused $14,000 of pain for no good reason and it's still not as low as it used to be before the tickets.


Yea, you can argue these tickets were all his fault - but think about it ... after hearing about this, the next time you hit a speed trap, are you really just going to simply pay your tickets?!


Just fight your tickets. Stop the robbery. Again I don't know how it works outside of Toronto ... but in the GTA, tickets are a cash grab and the police, insurance companies seem to be working together for this huge cash grab and have labelled it "safety on the streets" ... such BS.
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      07-18-2009, 05:08 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by A.Kon View Post
Belarus ... brilliant post.

Just fight your tickets. Stop the robbery. Again I don't know how it works outside of Toronto ... but in the GTA, tickets are a cash grab and the police, insurance companies seem to be working together for this huge cash grab and have labelled it "safety on the streets" ... such BS.
Thank you.

I feel for your dad, specially when I hear people pay out more to insurance than what the car is worth.

I'm all for the police to enforce traffic laws, and probably would never challenge them specially speeding if it was not directly impacting my insurance rate. I would consider it a fee you pay for getting faster from point A to B.

I can understand tickets such as Careless, Dangerous, Running the red light, Unsafe lane change, Tail gating, Going through the stop sign, DWI, having impact on your insurance rates, since this type of traffic offenses the main reason for car accidents. But when it comes to speeding and your insurance rates go up, sorry I do not agree with that based on the studies done on speeding with accident results.

IMHO. When we're behind the steering wheel most of people if not all will drive at the speed they are comfortable and in control of their car (exception if they are DWI, talking on the cell and etc.). It also makes you more focus, be aware of driving conditions, other drivers and etc. Versus driving speed limit on HWY with 100KM speed limit this day and age in the cars that are build with more HP and better handling that makes you feel doing 60KM/h at 100Km/h and can put you to sleep literally.
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      07-18-2009, 09:04 PM   #20
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Great thread!

My wife's a notary so she's going to look into her abilities.

I ask everyone to please fight any speeding ticket!
If we all exercise our rights to a day in court we can make the world a better place

Cops seem to like me alot so I've also gathered my fair share of tickets over the years.
My advice, always book a court date and immediately after the date is set request full disclosure.
This basically means that you will be given everything that will be used against you in court.
There's a number of ways to get off the ticket using the disclosure.
If the officer's handwriting looks like your average Doctor's prescription notes and is essentially illegible you can get off.
If the information is not complete you can get off.
If you don't obtain the full disclosure, and other information is used to incriminate you, you can get off.

This discussion raises some very good points and reminds me of conversations I've had with some friends who are, and who have been officers.

If you do not actually sign the ticket being handed to you how can anyone prove that it was actually you driving the car, and not an impersonator with your license.
And remember they have to prove without a reasonable doubt.

I love this stuff.
The question of accuracy is always in doubt
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      07-18-2009, 09:47 PM   #21
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<Then tell me why then is the Autobahn, at which traffic averages 120 MPH, the safest highway in the world. In fact, the autobahn goes as far as to have absolutely no speed limit through parts of it. Speed doesn't kill, bad drivers do.>

no dissrespect here but do you know the driving schools here ? Please do not compare them with the ones in Europe. First of all, no AT there so all cars pretty much standard. For example, they'll make you go on a 45 degree ramp, make a complete stop and have to advance without going backwards not even 1 mm. In Canada, ANYBODY can get a driver license. You know who they are... they drive toyota corolas and camrys and chromed fender civics.. also. All german cars can handle 150km / h no issues. Hard to say about some americans. Music there helps too.... it's crack music, keeping you alert and stuff not like the country and propaganda radio in the USA.
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      07-18-2009, 10:24 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smartys View Post
interesting point about the Notary......unsure of how it would work, but i'll look into it....

another approach that has apparently worked for some friends in the past is to schedule a court date, and then just at the deadline of having to notify to reschedule, call and say you can't make it, and reschedule the date. the reasoning behind this is apparently the cops are given certain days off in their schedule for court appearances, and so an attempt would be made to try to schedule a particular cop's cases on those days. If last minute you cancel, and reschedule, it makes it potentially more difficult for the date to be on the cops dedicated court day(s), and your chance that he/she won't show is therefore, potentially, emphasis on potentially, greater.......

worth a try, i would say.....
This makes the most sense to me. It's funny most every time I've gotten pulled over the officer asks me do you know why I pulled you over? I just respond by saying yes sir I was blah blah blah. I have always gotten off when I disclose what I've done wrong, always! So maybe instead of fighting the system so hard, like everyone else, just go with the flow. If I was an officer I'd respect that more than someone saying I dunno, well now you do!
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