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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Ign. Correction datalog example! If this doesn't convice you, not sure what will!



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      07-27-2009, 06:20 PM   #23
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      07-27-2009, 06:21 PM   #24
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      07-27-2009, 06:24 PM   #25
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your dog rules
thanks....and he can detail like no other
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      07-27-2009, 06:25 PM   #26
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ours helps datalog
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      07-27-2009, 06:28 PM   #27
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ours helps datalog
the best helper around.
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      07-27-2009, 06:28 PM   #28
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ours helps datalog
COM'ON dad...the dog park is waiting
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      07-27-2009, 06:29 PM   #29
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      07-27-2009, 07:01 PM   #30
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Always nice to see Carl!

I took his recommendation on the VK intercooler and was glad I did.
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      07-27-2009, 07:55 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
Knock is knock whether it happens at 2000rpm, 3000rpm, or 6000rpm, so lets post full logs. Perhaps also including IAT on all logs will also help spot variances. Something I've been guilty of omitting in a couple logs.
While I agree, knock is knock. That is not the focus of discussion. You/Terry say that CPS offsetting is "learned out". That is the focus so please stay with it. The topics of whether or not the DME copes quickly enough with knock events can be discussed in another thread. Right now we have a single topic and one which has merit; something we can test and discuss like adults which is a premise of the forums.

Personally, I would like to get a better understanding and get to the bottom of this. The logs I have captured have suggested CPS offsetting is not learned out. In addition, the programming in me as well as knowledge on Siemens programmable controllers would suggest the same as well. However, I am will conduct further tests to try and gain more insightful information. This would include performing multiple same gear pulls in the same location (I do not have a dyno at my house unfortunately) and with the same temperatures but with stock boost levels and no timing correction, tuned boost levels with and without timing correction. Ideally we would like ten pulls each with each overlaid and also averaged. That may provide some insight on what does and does not occur.

My gut feeling is that this is a futile exercise and will result in what we have seen; no correction learning. But for the interest of all, it can be conducted; just not tonight. I am currently in Gainesville, FL and will be traveling quite a bit in the coming days.

But getting back to discussions and considering the "knock is knock" comment, letís consider why the higher RPM range has been focused on. This should be obvious to any "tooner" as this is where the majority of CPS offset occurs. It would be more visible if any learning occurred in the higher revs. We are talking about minimal numbers yet they are still significant; 0.5 - 1.0 degrees can make a difference between knocking and not knocking. Yet, other variances can cause more sway.

There have already been some changes of stories in this adventure, which I am glad to see occur as it is enjoyable to many of us. And we can dissect that history if we must. But things may get a bit pointed when we go back and look at previous claims and now current stances. But that should be reserved for another thread; we all often get too OT and it makes threads hard to follow.

As a side note, please suggest the following to Terry (or subliminally I have I suppose ):

http://www.amazon.com/Excel-Charts-D.../dp/0764584731
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      07-27-2009, 07:56 PM   #32
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You must not take him to the vet in that car.
Will be driving through your area tomorrow, may give ya a ring...
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      07-27-2009, 07:58 PM   #33
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ours helps datalog
he looks guilty...like he left you a present in the backseat.
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      07-27-2009, 08:20 PM   #34
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Will be driving through your area tomorrow, may give ya a ring...
Should be done with court by 11 or so.
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      07-29-2009, 11:13 AM   #35
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A couple logs from today (overlayed)... I'm dialing in the settings prior to dyno time (ut89, ign.cor.60). But look how consistent the 2 pulls were (started at lower RPM for Mike... 3k/3.5k was the slowest I could go on the highway today):

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      07-29-2009, 12:26 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpsimon View Post
A couple logs from today (overlayed)... I'm dialing in the settings prior to dyno time (ut89, ign.cor.60). But look how consistent the 2 pulls were (started at lower RPM for Mike... 3k/3.5k was the slowest I could go on the highway today):
Boost looks good, but what's up with the throttle closure?

Mike
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      07-29-2009, 12:46 PM   #37
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Not sure, the rate of acceleration didn't seem much different at all though during and after that throttle closure (when I do a very un-scientific examination looking at the road speed and do some overlaying).

it was repeatable though, so something to look into and fix for sure.
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      07-29-2009, 12:51 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpsimon View Post
Not sure, the rate of acceleration didn't seem much different at all though during and after that throttle closure (when I do a very un-scientific examination looking at the road speed and do some overlaying).

it was repeatable though, so something to look into and fix for sure.
No need to fix it. You have PM.

Shiv
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      07-29-2009, 12:56 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpsimon View Post
Splitting hairs!

1) Mainly a space issue. 4000 - ~6500rpm is what I can reproduce effectively mid day where I am.
2) The boost varies in both: they both fluctuate slightly from ~14.9 - ~15.3. Yes I was attempting to keep the variables as close to the same as I can... same road, etc.

The point was to demonstrate timing changes based on ign. correction adjustments.... which this demonstrates.

I'm almost surprised you haven't asked about light-weight mods such as taking a big shit before the run to reduce weight by 2lbs, which could potentially change overall timing The answer to that variable is in fact no, no JDM shats.
I don't usually post in these technical threads that turn to back and forth "soap operas", but JP, I gotta admit, I LOL'd at that comment
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      07-29-2009, 12:56 PM   #40
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got it thanks, makes sense. For those wondering, the aggressive boost targeting I'm using creates this in the mid range which is normal. You don't feel it and performance doesn't change (there was no slow down in acceleration at all). It could be eliminated but I like that torquey "kick"


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No need to fix it. You have PM.

Shiv
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      07-29-2009, 01:15 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpsimon View Post
Not sure, the rate of acceleration didn't seem much different at all though during and after that throttle closure (when I do a very un-scientific examination looking at the road speed and do some overlaying).

it was repeatable though, so something to look into and fix for sure.
Not a big deal, I only ask because I've seen it crop up in V3 logs as well but others suggested it never happened. Really, the throttle moves so fast and effectively to stabilize over boost conditions it's hard to feel it closing on the road.

Mike
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      07-29-2009, 01:20 PM   #42
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It crops up for me under lighter loads right after boost aggressively ramps up, like the new logs i just posted starting at ~3-3.5k

here is a 1st - 3rd gear launch, heavy loads in each gear with no throttle closure. (different settings/road/day/etc, just comparing heavy vs. light loads)

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      07-29-2009, 02:07 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpsimon View Post
It crops up for me under lighter loads right after boost aggressively ramps up, like the new logs i just posted starting at ~3-3.5k

here is a 1st - 3rd gear launch, heavy loads in each gear with no throttle closure. (different settings/road/day/etc, just comparing heavy vs. light loads)
Must have something to do with the starting gear, starting RPM, etc.

Your newest log brings up an interesting point for analysis. Check out how timing drops each gear, yet boost and CPS offset are staying around the same. By 4th gear timing is almost to the floor, yet a 4th gear dyno pull like the ones posted in my thread show much higher values. IAT isn't logged here but with your intercooler we're probably looking at a ~30F rise over the run? Not enough to trigger more CPS offsetting per the V3 tuning.

So does that mean your car is ridiculously knocking in 4th gear? (spoiler alert: it doesn't, but curious for your analysis).

Mike
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      07-29-2009, 02:35 PM   #44
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Mike,
The DME trims timing based up IAT, gear and rate of acceleration. Not just knock activity. And contribution of knock activity can be isolated by retesting that same run on race gas.

Shiv
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