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      12-27-2013, 04:52 PM   #1
bion.pilcher
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RB Turbo swap questions/help..

Alright, so after much time saving and reading I have come to the conclusion of doing a swap from stock turbos to the RB Turbos. My current mods are:

Cobb Tune
ETS 5Ē FMIC
ETS Chargepipe w/Synapse BOV
ETS Catback
ETS Air Intake
BMS DPís

My current turbos have seal leaks, so itís about that time. I have read a lot about the RB Turbos and still have some unanswered, or unaddressed questions, which I may have just missed and I apologize for asking again. My goal is to just make 450whp and maybe later in the future adding methanol. So my questions are:

1. Do I need to upgrade my injectors? (even if I do decide to go with methanol in the future) I have read the stock ones are good up to 600 hp. Not sure if anyone has heard this before. Seems off to me, maybe I just misread.


2. I have a 5Ē FMIC, do I need to go up to the 7Ē? I live in England so the summers arenít all that warm, but if I NEED to go to a 7Ē.


Any lessons learned would be great as well if anyone has experience with these. Any recommendations. I hate having questions, posting a new forum, and then forgetting all my original questions so Iím sure more to follow.
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      12-27-2013, 04:59 PM   #2
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1. Nope, fuel injectors have been tested to 740hp as far as we know. You will need to add a inline fuel pump.

2. A 5" should be fine. A 7" might net a few degrees cooler and flow better but you should be fine. If you plan going balls out and max out the turbos you may want to go to a 7"
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      12-27-2013, 05:03 PM   #3
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450 wheel is super doable with hybrid twins, just need some octane, the tuning can be pretty conservative and net you those numbers.

You don't need new injectors. In fact...is anyone running different injectors than OE Piezo? The HPFP gets got pretty bad for BIG power guys, such as ^ him. But you should be fine at that type of power level. Will likely need to supplement low pressure if you plan on running corn fuel, though again you wouldn't need a ton of it to get to 450. So maybe you could get by on 100% stock fueling.
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      12-27-2013, 05:12 PM   #4
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I plan on sticking to high octane gas, but not E85 or anything. I will upgrade the fuel pump. I appreciate the heads up. I'm sure there will be more to come shortly as I do more reading.

I'm thinking to limit 16PSI cause I read going higher I start really putting my engine at risk.
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      12-27-2013, 05:22 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bion.pilcher View Post
I plan on sticking to high octane gas, but not E85 or anything. I will upgrade the fuel pump. I appreciate the heads up. I'm sure there will be more to come shortly as I do more reading.

I'm thinking to limit 16PSI cause I read going higher I start really putting my engine at risk.
A few things here

What are you considering high octane pump gas? If it's leaded race, that of course will provide the octane...but it's nasty stuff over the long term. E85 certainly has some drawbacks from a chemical standpoint as well though. Stock frame turbo setups get very, very octane hungry. So make sure you have the required octane to not only make the power, but have headroom against detonation. That's another reason why so many people here are partial to E85, it has fantastic knock resistance properties and burns nice and cool in our high CR motor.

What's far more important than peak boost is the boost taper. You can push 19-20psi midrange and down low, it's not an issue. Just be sure that you are tapering appropriately as you approach redline. There is absolutely, positively no evidence that this motor cannot handle 20psi as an absolute pressure matter. Where did you hear that?

Extraordinarily rare that N54s have catastrophic failures due simply to "too much boost". Too much boost up top you may smoke the turbos, but the actual block is very stout. Most failures we see are hydrolock, user error, or poor tuning.

Edit: on "normal" 91-93 pump, yes it is smart to keep boost levels and timing curves modest since you don't have much in the way of octane headroom or thermal management. But that's more or less common sense, or it should be at least.
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      12-27-2013, 05:50 PM   #6
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well the highest I can get on base (I live in England) is 94 Octane. So that may be a limfac. I will search for the post where it talked about too much PSI.

I just read:

"440-450 whp on 93 octane seems feasible. Keep in mind though power will tail off quicker than if you had water injection simply because you will heatsoak on sustained pulls even with an upgraded FMIC. The RBs will be a bit more less susceptible to heatsoaking than stock turbos though."





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Originally Posted by 135Pats View Post
A few things here

What are you considering high octane pump gas? If it's leaded race, that of course will provide the octane...but it's nasty stuff over the long term. E85 certainly has some drawbacks from a chemical standpoint as well though. Stock frame turbo setups get very, very octane hungry. So make sure you have the required octane to not only make the power, but have headroom against detonation. That's another reason why so many people here are partial to E85, it has fantastic knock resistance properties and burns nice and cool in our high CR motor.

What's far more important than peak boost is the boost taper. You can push 19-20psi midrange and down low, it's not an issue. Just be sure that you are tapering appropriately as you approach redline. There is absolutely, positively no evidence that this motor cannot handle 20psi as an absolute pressure matter. Where did you hear that?

Extraordinarily rare that N54s have catastrophic failures due simply to "too much boost". Too much boost up top you may smoke the turbos, but the actual block is very stout. Most failures we see are hydrolock, user error, or poor tuning.

Edit: on "normal" 91-93 pump, yes it is smart to keep boost levels and timing curves modest since you don't have much in the way of octane headroom or thermal management. But that's more or less common sense, or it should be at least.
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      12-27-2013, 05:55 PM   #7
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octane will be your limiting factor, for sure.

I have no first hand experience with hybrid twins on pump gas so don't want to give you incorrect power guestimates.
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      12-27-2013, 05:58 PM   #8
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I appreciate the honesty. I will keep looking for that post about the engine. I definitely agree with you though about the motor being pretty strong. I thought that originally.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 135Pats View Post
octane will be your limiting factor, for sure.

I have no first hand experience with hybrid twins on pump gas so don't want to give you incorrect power guestimates.
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      12-27-2013, 06:02 PM   #9
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On 94 octane with RBs on a good tune you will be looking at a solid 430whp, give or take depending on how your local dyno reads.

I would stick with the 5" FMIC, the extra 2" of the 7" cores doesn't do a whole lot for cooling and poses a potential reduction in throttle response.
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      12-27-2013, 06:09 PM   #10
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I was told to go to Protuning Freaks for my tune. I wasn't sure if it is something that I need to do versus getting a tune from the guys here in the UK. Does it come down to what I prefer? I just don't know how to communicate all needed information between those guys there and me being here. Another hurdle that is in my future.



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Originally Posted by Allen@PTF View Post
On 94 octane with RBs on a good tune you will be looking at a solid 430whp, give or take depending on how your local dyno reads.

I would stick with the 5" FMIC, the extra 2" of the 7" cores doesn't do a whole lot for cooling and poses a potential reduction in throttle response.
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      12-27-2013, 06:29 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bion.pilcher View Post
I was told to go to Protuning Freaks for my tune. I wasn't sure if it is something that I need to do versus getting a tune from the guys here in the UK. Does it come down to what I prefer? I just don't know how to communicate all needed information between those guys there and me being here. Another hurdle that is in my future.
We have tuned A LOT of N54s, everything from stock turbo tune only cars to 725whp VTT stage 3s and EVERYTHING in between, including several RB cars and have had very good results with them. If you choose to go with us we will walk you through the process and explain everything that needs to be done.

If you do choose to go with a shop local to you PLEASE do some research and be sure they know what they are doing and have experience with the N54, it can be a very tricky engine to get dialed in properly.
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      12-27-2013, 06:36 PM   #12
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well I have talked to multiple people, even some here in the UK, and they have recommended you guys there at PTF so that is where I will go for my tune. I will message you or go to the website when it's that time. Hopefully I can get my turbos ordered this weekend.
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      12-27-2013, 06:53 PM   #13
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Do you also have tunes for cars running boost? Like if I did get the RB Turbos, then ran 100% methanol, you would be able to tune it?

I am a bit partial to running it because I always feel like I'm going to get caught running out of Methanol and mess up my engine. I have no experience with using it so i'm weary. I just traded my HFS-4 Aquamist kit, but am already reconsidering about rebuying another one again.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Allen@PTF View Post
We have tuned A LOT of N54s, everything from stock turbo tune only cars to 725whp VTT stage 3s and EVERYTHING in between, including several RB cars and have had very good results with them. If you choose to go with us we will walk you through the process and explain everything that needs to be done.

If you do choose to go with a shop local to you PLEASE do some research and be sure they know what they are doing and have experience with the N54, it can be a very tricky engine to get dialed in properly.
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      12-27-2013, 07:18 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bion.pilcher View Post
Do you also have tunes for cars running boost? Like if I did get the RB Turbos, then ran 100% methanol, you would be able to tune it?

I am a bit partial to running it because I always feel like I'm going to get caught running out of Methanol and mess up my engine. I have no experience with using it so i'm weary. I just traded my HFS-4 Aquamist kit, but am already reconsidering about rebuying another one again.
We have tuned many RB cars on and off of meth. Of course, on methanol the power gains will be much more substantial and the car will be happier. The good thing about the Aquamist kits is that they will trip a failsafe should anything stop meth flow, whether it be a clog or running dry of meth.

We can make you a tune for regular pump gas and then another map for when methanol is flowing, if you choose.
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      12-27-2013, 07:31 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Allen@PTF View Post
We have tuned many RB cars on and off of meth. Of course, on methanol the power gains will be much more substantial and the car will be happier. The good thing about the Aquamist kits is that they will trip a failsafe should anything stop meth flow, whether it be a clog or running dry of meth.

We can make you a tune for regular pump gas and then another map for when methanol is flowing, if you choose.
So I could swap between tunes if I go on a road trip? That is what I'm hoping for. It sounds like the car would run better with meth instead of just pump gas cause of the octane increase so that's a huge plus.

After I get the new RB Turbos installed, can I drive the car back to my garage with a Cobb Tune? or do I need to get the PTF tune?
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      12-27-2013, 08:13 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bion.pilcher View Post
So I could swap between tunes if I go on a road trip? That is what I'm hoping for. It sounds like the car would run better with meth instead of just pump gas cause of the octane increase so that's a huge plus.

After I get the new RB Turbos installed, can I drive the car back to my garage with a Cobb Tune? or do I need to get the PTF tune?
Yep, you can freely swap between tunes as need be. Pump gas map for road trips and the meth map if you want to hoon around.

With the RBs installed on an OTS map you can drive the car, however I recommend going easy and staying out of boost. There's not much real danger but I ALWAYS recommend erring on the side of caution.
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      12-28-2013, 04:04 PM   #17
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I have RB turbos on my car here in the UK too and I would highly recommend the guys at PTF. Unfortunately my engine is currently being replaced due to the aux fan being sucked into the engine but I'm going to get the new one tuned by them again.

I didn't manage to get my methanol map sorted but after about 10 or so revisions the pump gas one felt spot on.

Drop me a PM if you need any help/advice as I've DIY'd all the bits on my car and can help you with any decisions you need to make.
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      12-29-2013, 06:01 AM   #18
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Awesome! I appreciate the help. Unfortunately it's the weekend so I haven't heard the shipping costs from RB to an APO address.

Sucks about the engine. Hope that doesn't run up the price too much.

I am sure I will hit you up for some advice and pointers. Thanks!
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      12-30-2013, 09:40 AM   #19
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RB turbos on pump 94 is fine. I run autotune on JB4 without issues.
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      12-30-2013, 10:09 AM   #20
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Quote:
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RB turbos on pump 94 is fine. I run autotune on JB4 without issues.
I was just curious because I will get them installed and then want to drive it back to my house to work with the PTF guys for a tune. I just don't want to hurt anything since the turbos will now be different.
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      12-31-2013, 09:38 AM   #21
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Bion is your car Left hand drive or right hand drive?
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      01-01-2014, 03:58 AM   #22
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It is LHD.

I also just bought the RB Turbos last night. $4050/£2450. Now it's a guessing game for when they will be built and shipped.
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