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      05-16-2010, 10:42 PM   #199
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullitt View Post
+1.

According to Terry, it's not all about IAT numbers when testing an intercooler. Reference

Flow and pressure drop is also important. Increased flow allows for more boost than IAT's. Reference

According to the calculated efficiency results posted earlier (and if the data is indeed reliable), it appears three of the FMIC's so far perform relatively similarly (within 8%) in reducing IAT. However, I've been concerned about how well the Helix FMIC flows even with their updated design due to its stepped structure. Air does not turn well around sharp bends, especially around 90 degree angles, so there must be turbulence generated around this stepped area within the endtanks which will negatively affect overall flow.

Just based upon physical appearance, it seems the HPF and AMS should have the best flow within their endtanks, which are curved without sharp angles. I personally like the HPF endtanks the best...its curves look the smoothest for the least amount of air turbulence IMHO. Of course, the flow through the core is another important aspect, but this can't really be judged based on looks. We need testing and data for this.
I got a feeling we will agree on alot in this thread.
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      05-16-2010, 11:40 PM   #200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clap135 View Post
I got a feeling we will agree on alot in this thread.
You are not alone in challenging the method of comparison used in this thread which I feel has been inadequate and questionable thus far.

With the IAT data and calculations presented, it can be easy to believe that one FMIC is better or worse than another. However, there's more to evaluating FMIC performance than the reduction of IAT's.
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      05-17-2010, 01:00 AM   #201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullitt View Post
You are not alone in challenging the method of comparison used in this thread which I feel has been inadequate and questionable thus far.

With the IAT data and calculations presented, it can be easy to believe that one FMIC is better or worse than another. However, there's more to evaluating FMIC performance than the reduction of IAT's.
But those methods wouldn't make appear to be the best now would it
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      05-17-2010, 05:28 AM   #202
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all of this has been covered before, Shiv did independant testing on 3 aftermarket fmics and helix had the best ait and pressure drops of the 3, i will see if i can get some data from him on this... as far as flow goes our thinner higher section is really no different than having a taller-thinner intercooler ie AA/Stett the air will move in the same way the difference is we have a stock like lower section, since we cant make an intercooler with clear endtanks to physically see we did laser temp scans accross the face of the intercooler on dyno the results showed consistent temps vertically across the core. as far as internal flow and pressure are concerned you can always go back to Boyles Law in physics:
Boyle's Law shows that, at constant temperature, the product of an ideal gas's pressure and volume is always constant.

It really sounds like we need an independant FMIC shootout I have been calling for this for quite some time and we are 100% willing to put our FMIC in the game, lets get it done and stop contemplating what ifs

test criteria-please add tests
on road testing-same car same day
-ait/heatsoak
-pressure drop
-recovery time
-in gear accelleration/time

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullitt View Post
+1.

According to Terry, it's not all about IAT numbers when testing an intercooler. Reference

Flow and pressure drop is also important. Increased flow allows for more boost than IAT's. Reference

According to the calculated efficiency results posted earlier (and if the data is indeed reliable), it appears three of the FMIC's so far perform relatively similarly (within 8%) in reducing IAT. However, I've been concerned about how well the Helix FMIC flows even with their updated design due to its stepped structure. Air does not turn well around sharp bends, especially around 90 degree angles, so there must be turbulence generated around this stepped area within the endtanks which will negatively affect overall flow.

Just based upon physical appearance, it seems the HPF and AMS should have the best flow within their endtanks, which are curved without sharp angles. I personally like the HPF endtanks the best...its curves look the smoothest for the least amount of air turbulence IMHO. Of course, the flow through the core is another important aspect, but this can't really be judged based on looks. We need testing and data for this.
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      05-17-2010, 08:16 AM   #203
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To you it sounds like we need independant fmic shoot out threads. I "sorta" agree. To me it sounds like you are trying to make certain fmic's look better than others without providing data that would swing your argument either way.
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      05-17-2010, 01:23 PM   #204
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here are some datalogs for a few of the intercoolers that was posted several pages ago. make your own conclusions as to which one has superior heat soak control and ait temp reduction...I have been asking for datalogs for all of the intercoolers currently in production, regardless if they perform better or worse than helix. it sounds like you want to know the fmic landscape as much as I do and I am not worried one bit in regards to the pressure drop testing. I already know via shivs testing Helix beat 2 of the current units on the market. I know the quality of the core and internal fin aerodynamics and I know our additional 5-6 charge rows will lower our pressure drop while at the same time adding a larger internal surface area for Temp reduction. as I said we will be more than happy to throw one of our intercoolers into an INDEPENDANT fmic shootout on a same car same day test!

Ambient Temp: 58
PSi: 14.5
Starting IAT: 73
Ending IAT: 96


ETS FMIC 2-3-4 gear run 58 degree ambient temp 23 degree temp rise in 3 gears


AMS FMIC 2-3-4 gear run 58 Degree ambient temp - 22 Degree temp rise in 3 gears


Helix FMIC 2-3-4 gear run 85 degree ambient temp - 8 degree temp rise in 3 gears


Spearco/Code 3, 2-3-4 gear run in CELSIUS 65 degree ambient temp-
Temps rise from 46(114f) degrees C to 59(139f) 25 degree temp rise in 3 gears


Last edited by TurboBullett@Ambient Thermal Management; 05-17-2010 at 01:30 PM.
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      05-17-2010, 01:39 PM   #205
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I see you are still missing the point, so I'll just stop repeating myself after this post. IAT's are only one part of the equation. Unless you show the data asked for, your argument is useless. You can show me 80 more datalogs showing random people logging iat's and I will tell you that you just wasted 80 minutes of your life. lol
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      05-17-2010, 02:57 PM   #206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clap135 View Post
...
IAT's are only one part of the equation.
...


Nevertheless, the datalog used to calculate the results for the Helix is suspect because each pull, especially the ones in 2nd & 3rd gear, did not reach at or near redline like all the other FMIC's and their datalogs. The RPMs with the Helix reached only up to 6300 at most in the first two pulls and only up to 5600 in the third. In comparison with the other competing datalogs, the Helix FMIC was not subject to same high RPM conditions/stress as the others. Therefore, the Helix has an unfair advantage in IAT results. New datalogs must be made.

According to the calculator, the Spearco/Code3 seems to have performed the worst, but it's also the only one that used a datalog where the engine reached at or near redline in all 3 consecutive gears.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TTurboBullett View Post
...

Helix FMIC 2-3-4 gear run 85 degree ambient temp - 8 degree temp rise in 3 gears


Spearco/Code 3, 2-3-4 gear run in CELSIUS 65 degree ambient temp-
Temps rise from 46(114f) degrees C to 59(139f) 25 degree temp rise in 3 gears

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      05-17-2010, 03:45 PM   #207
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Who cares honestly, add meth injection into the mix and your choice of FMIC becomes less relevant. What matters is the FMICs listed in this thread are all doing their job.
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      07-19-2010, 09:52 PM   #208
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Heres another point, im on the stocker using meth, want a log of my IATS? Hell I'll run 100 percent ice water and blow these datalogs away, does that mean the stock intercooler with a water injectors performs better than any of these aftermarket intercoolers? No it doesn't, because the stock intercooler flows like shit due to its high pressure drop. Try again....again.
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      07-19-2010, 09:57 PM   #209
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95 degree heat soaked front mount
after 4 gear reving to over 6k in each gear, at 18psi, the ending ait was 104 degrees.

If its all about IATs why are people wasting 1k on intercoolers when they can get a pump and tubing for 200 dollars and blow these things away. If I showed you a log ar 13.5 psi 2nd through 4th on a 65 degree day, I doubt the temp would even budge once it droped from the starting point.

After all its all about Iats.....nub.


PS notice how my ic returns right back to staging temps in mere seconds....why upgrade, my iats are great lol.
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      07-19-2010, 10:08 PM   #210
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I can answer that question... Flow.
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      07-19-2010, 10:09 PM   #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by themyst View Post
I can answer that question... Flow.
ehhhhh, more common sense arrives. Stick around, this thread needs more of it.
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      07-19-2010, 11:53 PM   #212
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Regardless of how the test were performed IATs do mean alot. Lets say hypothetically we are trying to reach a target 14psi manifold pressure and we are comparing two intercoolers. Intercooler A has more pressure drop but at the same manifold pressure has lower AITs than intercooler B which has less pressure drop but higher IATs than intercooler A. Eventhough the turbos will work harder to create a manifold pressure of 14psi in intercooler A the resulting hp will me more since the air at 14psi will be denser. So since we dont have cars that are capable of creating an infinite amount of boost then it is my opinion that lower IATs are the most important characteristic of an intercooler since we have boost targets to meet.
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      07-19-2010, 11:58 PM   #213
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Flow starts becoming more a limiting factor when the car struggles to reach the boost target which at this point is beyond the limits of the stock turbos. With this statement it must be noted that none of the intercoolers I have seen so far on the market for the 335i have terrible flow characteristics especially that most if not all the aftermarket intercoolers are bar and plate designs.
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      07-20-2010, 07:52 AM   #214
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That's where I disagree. Aits are all close enough with all the Intercoolers mentioned here. The pressure drop is simply listed for some with zero info that actually shows something. If I have a boost target of 20 psi and intercooler A reaches that target with an iat of 100 and a pressure drop of 2 then that Turbo is pushing a min of 22 psi. Say if B hits 115 aits but the Turbo is spinning at 20.5 psi.....
I would chose option B every single time.
like I said iat wise they are all close enough to where it doesn't matter, ESP on Meth. Flow wise its clearly obvious that some end tanks flow better than others.
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      07-20-2010, 01:40 PM   #215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clap135 View Post
That's where I disagree. Aits are all close enough with all the Intercoolers mentioned here. The pressure drop is simply listed for some with zero info that actually shows something. If I have a boost target of 20 psi and intercooler A reaches that target with an iat of 100 and a pressure drop of 2 then that Turbo is pushing a min of 22 psi. Say if B hits 115 aits but the Turbo is spinning at 20.5 psi.....
I would chose option B every single time.
like I said iat wise they are all close enough to where it doesn't matter, ESP on Meth. Flow wise its clearly obvious that some end tanks flow better than others.
I do agree with you, however ur argument is more geared towards reliability than power. Regardless of how fast the turbo's aer spinning, if they both reach teh same boost target, the intercooler that produces the lower IATs, thus more dense charged air will produce the most power. In ur case choosing the intercooler that keeps the turbos spinning at a lower rpm will only extend the life of the turbos. Not making an argument of it but just saying that at the mod levels that i have seen anyone reach on this forum the most limiting factor to the intercoolers at this point is IAT and not pressure drop. All intercoolers i have seen so far have managed to improve on both factors over stock. I havent tried meth on my car yet so i cant give an accurate discussion into that. I do understand the chemistry behind alcohols and their rate of evaporation improving cooling efficiency so I will take your word for it. If it is indeed tru that all the intercoolers do have IATs in teh same range which this comparison does not suggest then i totally agree with ur statement.
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      07-20-2010, 02:07 PM   #216
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I disagree again. No point in making a Turbo work harder to drop an additially 5 degrees. Many of us are running at and far above the compressor maps of these little snail.....iat that close is useless.
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      07-20-2010, 03:52 PM   #217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clap135 View Post
I disagree again. No point in making a Turbo work harder to drop an additially 5 degrees. Many of us are running at and far above the compressor maps of these little snail.....iat that close is useless.
If you check the table on page 4 i think... there's definitely more than a 5 degree temp drop between intercoolers. Thats why i said according to this thread. My situation was hypothetical most likey temp increase as a function of rpm in turbos isnt linear at all, so in a real life situation it may be hard to find that an intercooler has lower IATs if the psi difference in output of the turbos is 2 psi as u suggest. In this thread the difference between aftermarket intercooler pressure drops are decimals such as 0.3psi but the IAT differences have been greater than 10 F. So I would say my statement is quite valid with regard to the information posted here since no intercooler has managed to stop the turbos from reaching their target boost pressure or caused them to work harder than the stock intercooler. And as a side note gotta pay to play. If it means the turbos gotta work harder to get that last bit of power so be it
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      07-20-2010, 05:48 PM   #218
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Thats the thing, the turbos DONT have to work harder if you have a proper flowing system. Stock car pushing 12psi vs a fmic car (that flows the way it should) pushing 12, the fmic car's turbos are actually producing less psi, hence staying on the map longer while attaining the same boost as the stock car and making more power due to them being more efficient.

I glimpsed through this thread quick, weather it be 5-10-15 degrees, who cares, they are all close.
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      07-20-2010, 10:33 PM   #219
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I guess you haven't realized that I havent disagreed with u... At the end of the day the discussion of turbo efficiency and maps still come back to the argument of heat and IATs. The whole point of my argument is that at any given manifold pressure colder denser air (air at lower IAT) will always make more power than hotter less dense air. Therefore keeping the final out put of the intercooler consant i.e the manifold pressure, the interooler that manages to keep the temps down will still produce better results. You do know that it is possible that an intercooler can compensate for a turbo operating out of its efficiency range? I do agree with you that they don't have to work harder but disagreeing with my statement shows that you do not get the point of my argument as stated above that colder will always yeild more power given that the final psi in the manifold is the same between the intercoolers in the comparison. Just to state a -10* F difference in temps for a 3000cc motor at 14psi above atmospheric pressure and a head with approximately 80% efficiency will have about 5.6x10^21 more molecules of oxygen in its combustion chamber meaning more power LOL. Just wanted to be silly so i did a quick calculation.
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      07-20-2010, 11:12 PM   #220
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I think you are both missing they key difference slightly.


Overboost, you are correct in that the intercooler that produces the lowest ait with make the most power.

Clap135, you are correct in that a lower pressure drop is optimal.


However, I think the issue is whether a lower ait or a lower pressure drop will benefit a faster 1/4 mile time.

Pros of a lower pressure drop and higher ait:
the turbo will need to produce less boost to achieve the manifold boost target.
The turbos will reach their boost target slightly quicker.

Cons:
The ait will be higher and thus produce less power.

Pros of a higher pressure drop and lower ait:
The engine will make more power from the increase in the density of oxygen molecules in the combustion chamber

Cons:
The turbos will have to work harder to achieve the boost target
The turbos will take slightly longer to reach the boost target

I think the question that must be answered is will the shorter time to boost target make for a faster 1/4 mile or will the gains be minuscule thus meaning that an increase in overall power would be most beneficial.
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