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      02-03-2010, 02:53 PM   #89
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It's mighty cold out here right now, but I'd gladly do some 2-3-4 testing with my AMS unit if you think the cold weather won't skew the results too much. It would be interesting either way I think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TTurboBullett View Post
the best comparisons we can all make is if people(end users not tuner data) do a 2-3-4 gear wide open throttle run datalogging boost,rpm and ambient temps. i have a very good calculator that can estimate pre intercooler temps and translate that into intercooler efficiencies using the estimated pre intercooler temps/post intercooler temps and ambient temps. the standardization done this way over multiple gears also shows an intercoolers ability to thwart heat soak... most of the current 2-3-4 data is done at 13.5-14.5psi boost levels, as you said earlier comparing data at stock boost to tuned boost is useless and can be wrongly interpreted. I just want the TRUTH to be shown, as many people it seems get caught up in a name or believe marketing hype... Let independant DATA and FACTS be the judge!


I have proposed an intercooler shootout on several threads, Helix will gladly put our FMIC in the mix as I know from the data i have seen on the opposition we will be at or very near the top of the heap in every apspect: pressure drops, ait drops, intercooler efficiency and reluctance to heat soak
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      02-03-2010, 05:17 PM   #90
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I have order the ETS IC what you you guys think about it?
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      02-03-2010, 05:53 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpsimon View Post
It's mighty cold out here right now, but I'd gladly do some 2-3-4 testing with my AMS unit if you think the cold weather won't skew the results too much. It would be interesting either way I think.
a 27 degree ambient will not be a valid comparison as the other independant tests have been done in the 80's and 90's ambients. by design an intercooler works better the as the delta between ambient and hot side charge temps increase!
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      02-03-2010, 06:13 PM   #92
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yeah that's what I thought, oh well I'll do testing come spring/summer then.
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      02-04-2010, 06:16 AM   #93
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I am glad people do realize that a standardized test must be done if a comparison is to be done. Make sure rpms, TPS voltage, and IATs are included.
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      02-04-2010, 07:09 AM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Former_Boosted_IS View Post
I am glad people do realize that a standardized test must be done if a comparison is to be done. Make sure rpms, TPS voltage, and IATs are included.
and boost
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      02-04-2010, 09:43 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevak View Post
I have order the ETS IC what you you guys think about it?
This one is probably my favorite. I'll be ordering sometime in April. Wish the PSI drop wasn't so harsh though.
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      02-04-2010, 10:57 PM   #96
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anyone have any feedback on the Spearco FMIC?
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      02-04-2010, 11:03 PM   #97
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Which intercooler is 100% bolt on and 100% reversable? Only helix?

Thanks
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      02-04-2010, 11:20 PM   #98
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great thread...
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      02-05-2010, 01:08 AM   #99
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As requested, I added Picture/Graph 12 showing a 2-3-4 Gear Full Throttle Datalog with RPM, Boost, and IAT for the AMS FMIC to the first post of this thread:
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=346745
-----------------------------------------
Edit: Please note that this was performed on a slightly uphill stretch of road. Therefore, it was on boost longer than if it were on a flat stretch of road.
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Last edited by usc335; 02-07-2010 at 12:07 PM. Reason: Clarified datalog conditions
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      02-05-2010, 05:38 AM   #100
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if anyone else can add Independant 2-3-4 datalogs(with an ambient temp and boost preferably at 13.5-14 as these other charts show) to any other intercoolers please get them to me and I can add to this post


AMS FMIC 2-3-4 gear run 58 Degree ambient temp - 22 Degree temp rise in 3 gears


Helix FMIC 2-3-4 gear run 85 degree ambient temp - 8 degree temp rise in 2-3-4 gear


Spearco/Code 3, 2-3-4 gear run in CELSIUS 65 degree ambient temp-
Temps rise from 46(114f) degrees C to 59(139f) 25 degree temp rise in 3 gears


Last edited by TurboBullett@Ambient Thermal Management; 09-09-2011 at 02:39 PM.
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      02-05-2010, 05:52 AM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usc335 View Post
As requested, I added Picture/Graph 12 showing a 2-3-4 Gear Full Throttle Datalog with RPM, Boost, and IAT for the AMS FMIC to the first post of this thread:
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=346745
I am absolutely floored that it got that hot on the AMS intercooler with a 58F ambient? That is a huge rise at a temperature that cool. That is a 54F rise over ambient. I wonder why it is so high? What other mods do you have? How much boost?
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      02-05-2010, 06:00 AM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Former_Boosted_IS View Post
I am absolutely floored that it got that hot on the AMS intercooler with a 58F ambient? That is a huge rise at a temperature that cool. That is a 54F rise over ambient. I wonder why it is so high? What other mods do you have? How much boost?
boost is shown looks to be 13.5-14.5 as it is in the other fmic logs...exposed ambient face, internal and external fin density and weight(mass) ALL affect a fmics ability to thwart off heat soak!

Last edited by TurboBullett@Ambient Thermal Management; 02-05-2010 at 06:53 AM.
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      02-05-2010, 06:09 AM   #103
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You can add that the Stett has Tbolt clamps, and the AA requires cutting as well.
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      02-05-2010, 06:55 AM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terrance28 View Post
You can add that the Stett has Tbolt clamps, and the AA requires cutting as well.
can you or do you have a stett 2-3-4 datalog done at an ambient of 58-85 degrees which shows boost/rpm/ait?

Last edited by TurboBullett@Ambient Thermal Management; 02-06-2010 at 09:04 AM.
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      02-05-2010, 08:09 AM   #105
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we need INDEPENDANT 2-3-4 gear datalogs from the following manufacturers FMICS:
-HPF
-AA
-RPI
-VK
-Stett
-ETS
-forge


please make sure the tests are done between 58-85 degree ambient temps and at a boost level of 13.5-14.5 psi so we can standardize the testing!

log boost, ait and rpm

Last edited by TurboBullett@Ambient Thermal Management; 02-06-2010 at 09:55 AM.
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      02-05-2010, 11:30 AM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JerzeySux View Post
Which intercooler is 100% bolt on and 100% reversable? Only helix?

Thanks
ETS (Same core as VK used to make) is 100% bolt on. no fabrication, just take out stock, put this in. done.
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      02-06-2010, 05:21 AM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Former_Boosted_IS View Post
I am absolutely floored that it got that hot on the AMS intercooler with a 58F ambient?
I think we need to bare in mind that the AMS runs shifted at 7000 rpm and the entire run lasted for 19 seconds. The Spearco runs shifted at 7000 rpm and lasted for 14 seconds. Whereas the Helix runs shifted at 6200 rpm and lasted for 12 seconds (37% shorter than the AMS run).

These factors must have huge effects on AITs.

Also, I am interested to know at what temps the ECU starts to pull power - do we have this data anywhere? -at what temp does the engine begin to get heatsoaked?

Finally - to really determine the best FMIC we need to factor in pressure drop /air flow, as these also have a significant effect on peak power at a given boost level.

The best FMIC will provide a consistent performance on all of these factors at say 14psi on stock turbos. An FMIC that keeps temps in check (way below where timing is pulled), but has a greater pressure drop is not suited to stock turbos imo. Similarly, one that has minimal pressure drop, but can't handle the extra heat at 14psi is not up to the job.

For these reasons, I would not rule out the AMS FMIC on stock turbos just going by the runs posted above.

Last edited by Yahoo; 02-06-2010 at 05:29 AM.
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      02-06-2010, 06:07 AM   #108
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Another way to calculate the temp rise would be to look at how long temps were rising for, and how much temps had risen in that time during the runs.

The AMS IC rose by 22 degrees in 12 secs = 1.83 degrees per second
The Helix IC rose by 11 degrees in 7 secs = 1.57 degrees per second
The Spearco IC rose by 25 degrees in 11 secs = 2.27 degrees per second

This analysis shows a clear rank order in terms of temp increase over time.

Interestingly, when looking at pressure drop the rank is opposite (AFAIK) - Spearco has least pressure drop, then AMS which is marginally better than Helix.
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      02-06-2010, 08:19 AM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahoo View Post
Another way to calculate the temp rise would be to look at how long temps were rising for, and how much temps had risen in that time during the runs.

The AMS IC rose by 22 degrees in 12 secs = 1.83 degrees per second
The Helix IC rose by 11 degrees in 7 secs = 1.57 degrees per second
The Spearco IC rose by 25 degrees in 11 secs = 2.27 degrees per second

This analysis shows a clear rank order in terms of temp increase over time.

Interestingly, when looking at pressure drop the rank is opposite (AFAIK) - Spearco has least pressure drop, then AMS which is marginally better than Helix.

thats another GOOD way to compare and im glad to see the temp rise/time results back up the logs as well but take in mind that the helix run was done in an 85 degree ambient, the AMS in a 58 degree ambient and the spearco in a 65 degree ambient.

Please lets stick to pure data and not opinion on this thread, this is a thread where independant data(not data done by the manufacturer is being used, as you may see sometimes end user data doesn't match the "marketing data" the manufacturer releases!

"The truth will set you free, but first it may piss you off!"-Gloria Steinem

how do you know ams and spearco has better pressure drop than helix? Shiv tested 3 different aftermarket FMICs and helix had the best temp AND pressure drops! AGAIN don't believe what the manufacturer tells you, look at the hard data done by independant end users. I'm saying this to you and I am the guy who designed the Helix, difference is all of our release data matches EXACTLY what our end users/tuners have posted in their personal logs!

“I've tested 3 different aftermarket FMICs in my car and the Helix unit performed the best in terms of cooling efficiency and pressure loss. I don't see things getting much better than that to be honest.”
Shiv

Last edited by TurboBullett@Ambient Thermal Management; 02-06-2010 at 09:17 AM.
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      02-06-2010, 08:38 AM   #110
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if you closely look at the AMS log you will see that the car was running slightly less boost and actually shifted in 2nd gear at 6500rpm, and 3rd gear at 6200rpm the increase in rpm at that time can be attributed to a throttle blip which can also be seen in the boost log at those rpms The OP for the AMS run stated that he was lazy shifting that can be the discrepancy in time, any time off throttle(the OP took a full 4 seconds to shift the 2 gears, in that time aits did not increase) while the car is moving helps the AMS as it gives the fmic time to cool. armed with this data THIS IS A VALID COMPARISON TO BOTH THE HELIX AND SPEARCO, if anything the test is skewed to favor ams when you factor in the slightly less boost and lower ambient temps.

heres the quote from USC335 from here:
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=346745

"(12) AMS FMIC IAT Datalog 2nd-3rd-4th Gear Full Throttle Datalog
[Note: Ambient Air Temp = 58 F]

(a) IAT at Start of Run = 86.1 F
(b) IAT at End of Run = 112.3 F
(c) Delta IAT = 26.2 F
(d) Yes, my shifts were really lazy."
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahoo View Post
I think we need to bare in mind that the AMS runs shifted at 7000 rpm and the entire run lasted for 19 seconds. The Spearco runs shifted at 7000 rpm and lasted for 14 seconds. Whereas the Helix runs shifted at 6200 rpm and lasted for 12 seconds (37% shorter than the AMS run).

These factors must have huge effects on AITs.

Also, I am interested to know at what temps the ECU starts to pull power - do we have this data anywhere? -at what temp does the engine begin to get heatsoaked?

Finally - to really determine the best FMIC we need to factor in pressure drop /air flow, as these also have a significant effect on peak power at a given boost level.

The best FMIC will provide a consistent performance on all of these factors at say 14psi on stock turbos. An FMIC that keeps temps in check (way below where timing is pulled), but has a greater pressure drop is not suited to stock turbos imo. Similarly, one that has minimal pressure drop, but can't handle the extra heat at 14psi is not up to the job.

For these reasons, I would not rule out the AMS FMIC on stock turbos just going by the runs posted above.

Last edited by TurboBullett@Ambient Thermal Management; 02-06-2010 at 09:26 AM.
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