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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > FMIC Comparison - Data Compilation



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      02-06-2010, 09:55 AM   #111
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we need INDEPENDANT 2-3-4 gear datalogs from the following manufacturers FMICS:
-HPF
-AA
-RPI
-VK
-Stett
-ETS
-forge


please make sure the tests are done between 58-85 degree ambient temps and at a boost level of 13.5-14.5 psi so we can standardize the testing!

log boost, ait and rpm
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      02-06-2010, 09:56 AM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TTurboBullett View Post
Please lets stick to pure data and not opinion on this thread, this is a thread where independant data(not data done by the manufacturer is being used, as you may see sometimes end user data doesn't match the "marketing data" the manufacturer releases!
I'm not sure if this is aimed at anyone in particular - but all I have done is offer an alternative analysis of this independant data.

To further understand what might be going on here, I would like to know whether different starting temps have an effect on the overall temp gain during a run.

Would the same car with the same FMIC starting from a temp of 60 degrees see the same increase in temps of the same duration run as if it was doing a run from 100 degrees?

For example -

Run 1 - a 10 second 2 -3 -4 gear run with AITs starting at 60 degrees and ending at 80 degrees would clearly have had an overall increase of 20 degrees during the run.

If run 2 started with 100 degree AITs, would the laws of thermal dynamics expect the same car, with an exact duplicate of run 1 (with the same ambient temps etc), to end with AITs at 120 degrees?

or does a law of diminishing heat gain kick in as starting AITs increase?
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      02-06-2010, 10:31 AM   #113
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Knowledge is Power!

I was not aiming that quote at anyone in particular, I just want to open peoples eyes as to the realities of the FMIC landscape and things to look for in regards to real data vs marketing hype... Interestingly enough i use a very good turbo outlet temp calculator that also generates a FMIC efficiency using data that is provided in this thread that answers your ?'s about starting and ending temps.

http://www.stealth316.com/2-turbotemp.htm

using this calculator with the provided data we can see how efficient each unit is in a real world situation and is all based in Physics Law(an exact science). heres the data i got using the calculator, feel free to try it yourself its actually very eye opening. When designing a FMIC I use this during prototyping to determine the best balance of internal fin density and charge row/ambient row height as we don't use an "off the shelf" core!

Turbo Outlet Temp Calculator

inlet temperature-(use the ambient temperature to standardize the test)

input pressure-14.5(atmospheric pressure this does not change unless you are at altitude)

output pressure-(this is the boost pressure seen prior to the fmic, add pressure drop plus datalogged pressure for this #)

compressor efficiency-70%(this can be found by mapping the #'s on a compressor map OR to datalog intercooler inlet temps, lets use 70% to standardize the testing as all are running similar boost levels)

Outlet Temp- (this is the temperature leaving the turbo and entering the FMIC)

Intercooler Outlet Temperature and Pressure Calculator


IC input Temperature-(this is the Outlet Temp from the previous calculation)

IC Efficiency-(This is the how efficient the FMIC is in this test, it is also the factor you play with to try and match up to the known plenum temp(ending datalogged ait at the end of the run))

IC Pressure loss-.5 (this is the pressure drop through the core, lets use .5 psi to standardize the test)

Ambient Temp-(this is the ambient temp and also the turbo inlet temp)

Plenum Temp-(this is the datalogged ait temp at the end of the 2-3-4 gear run)


now lets crunch the #'s...

HELIX-Intercooler Efficiency 86% through 3 gears
Turbo Outlet Temp Calculator
inlet temperature-85
input pressure-14.5
output pressure-14
compressor efficiency-70%
Outlet Temp- 249

Intercooler Outlet Temperature and Pressure Calculator
IC input Temperature-249
IC Pressure loss-.5
Ambient Temp-85
Plenum Temp-108
IC Efficiency-86%

ETS-Intercooler Efficiency 80% through 3 gears
Turbo Outlet Temp Calculator
inlet temperature-50
input pressure-14.5
output pressure-?
compressor efficiency-***using datalogged output temp***
Outlet Temp- 248 ***taken from datalog***

Intercooler Outlet Temperature and Pressure Calculator
IC input Temperature-248
IC Pressure loss-.5
Ambient Temp-50
Plenum Temp-91
IC Efficiency-80%

AMS-Intercooler Efficiency 79% through 3 gears
Turbo Outlet Temp Calculator
inlet temperature-58
input pressure-14.5
output pressure-14
compressor efficiency-70%
Outlet Temp- 214

Intercooler Outlet Temperature and Pressure Calculator
IC input Temperature-214
IC Pressure loss-.5
Ambient Temp-58
Plenum Temp-112
IC Efficiency-79%

SPEARCO/Code 3-Intercooler Efficiency 54% through 3 gears
Turbo Outlet Temp Calculator
inlet temperature-65
input pressure-14.5
output pressure-14
compressor efficiency-70%
Outlet Temp- 223

Intercooler Outlet Temperature and Pressure Calculator
IC input Temperature-223
IC Pressure loss-.5
Ambient Temp-65
Plenum Temp-139
IC Efficiency-54%

What this data shows is the efficency and also the FMICs ability to thwart heatsoak through 2-3-4 gears, you can also get single gear efficiencies using the data provided



Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahoo View Post
I'm not sure if this is aimed at anyone in particular - but all I have done is offer an alternative analysis of this independant data.

To further understand what might be going on here, I would like to know whether different starting temps have an effect on the overall temp gain during a run.

Would the same car with the same FMIC starting from a temp of 60 degrees see the same increase in temps of the same duration run as if it was doing a run from 100 degrees?

For example -

Run 1 - a 10 second 2 -3 -4 gear run with AITs starting at 60 degrees and ending at 80 degrees would clearly have had an overall increase of 20 degrees during the run.

If run 2 started with 100 degree AITs, would the laws of thermal dynamics expect the same car, with an exact duplicate of run 1 (with the same ambient temps etc), to end with AITs at 120 degrees?

or does a law of diminishing heat gain kick in as starting AITs increase?

Last edited by TurboBullett@Ambient Thermal Management; 03-03-2010 at 05:25 PM.
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      02-06-2010, 11:45 AM   #114
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Great info - what is the efficiency of the stock IC?
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      02-06-2010, 11:46 AM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahoo View Post
Great info - what is the efficiency of the stock IC?
get me a 2-3-4 gear datalog that shows ait,boost,rpm and let me know ambient temp and we can crunch the #'s!
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      02-06-2010, 12:51 PM   #116
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Well I searched long and hard looking at every single intercooler and I luckily by chance (was given the wrong inventory information and bad customer service when trying to purchase a helix) and I will be recieving the HPF intercooler quite soon I would be glad to post a log using my BT tool.
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      02-06-2010, 01:21 PM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by possible335i2008 View Post
I will be recieving the HPF intercooler quite soon I would be glad to post a log using my BT tool.
when you do your datalogs we are trying to standardize the tests with a 58-85 degree ambient temp and a boost level of 13-14psi.
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      02-06-2010, 07:26 PM   #118
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This is excellent information..............This thread should be a sticky

Last edited by Sparky66; 02-08-2010 at 01:18 AM.
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      02-07-2010, 12:14 PM   #119
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FYI - I'm the one who posted the AMS FMIC datalog and I forgot to point out that it was performed on a slightly uphill stretch of road. Therefore, it was on boost longer than if it were on a flat stretch of road. That being said, the Helix FMIC does appear to be more efficient. I think I may have been the first one to post an IAT datalog for an AMS FMIC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TTurboBullett View Post
if you closely look at the AMS log you will see that the car was running slightly less boost and actually shifted in 2nd gear at 6500rpm, and 3rd gear at 6200rpm the increase in rpm at that time can be attributed to a throttle blip which can also be seen in the boost log at those rpms The OP for the AMS run stated that he was lazy shifting that can be the discrepancy in time, any time off throttle(the OP took a full 4 seconds to shift the 2 gears, in that time aits did not increase) while the car is moving helps the AMS as it gives the fmic time to cool. armed with this data THIS IS A VALID COMPARISON TO BOTH THE HELIX AND SPEARCO, if anything the test is skewed to favor ams when you factor in the slightly less boost and lower ambient temps.

heres the quote from USC335 from here:
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=346745

"(12) AMS FMIC IAT Datalog 2nd-3rd-4th Gear Full Throttle Datalog
[Note: Ambient Air Temp = 58 F]

(a) IAT at Start of Run = 86.1 F
(b) IAT at End of Run = 112.3 F
(c) Delta IAT = 26.2 F
(d) Yes, my shifts were really lazy."
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      02-07-2010, 01:30 PM   #120
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I already order the HPF FMIC....Will add to the list once I get the intercooler installed and do some logs....
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      02-08-2010, 12:44 PM   #121
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possible335i2008, just sent you a pm.
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      02-08-2010, 05:51 PM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ralph@helix View Post
possible335i2008, just sent you a pm.
I haven't seen this response yet, so I will ask again: How much does the Helix FMIC weigh?
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      02-08-2010, 06:32 PM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeph View Post
I haven't seen this response yet, so I will ask again: How much does the Helix FMIC weigh?
I think I read it weights 17 pounds
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      02-08-2010, 07:29 PM   #124
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Whats the best?
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      02-08-2010, 07:42 PM   #125
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where's a key grip when you need one..
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      02-08-2010, 07:55 PM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cn555ic View Post
I think I read it weights 17 pounds
Don't think so, more than that I am sure. I think AMS is around 17 according to that chart on page 3 or 4 of this post. I could believe maybe 27
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      02-08-2010, 08:09 PM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeph View Post
Don't think so, more than that I am sure. I think AMS is around 17 according to that chart on page 3 or 4 of this post. I could believe maybe 27
If thats the case it weighs more than the HPF one which weighs 22 pounds I believe...The only one that has a support brace is HPF, thats another reason why I went with theirs along with using the c-clip, and also their reputation
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      02-09-2010, 03:51 AM   #128
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guess no one has any info on the Spearco... =P
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      02-09-2010, 05:32 AM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Synergy 69 View Post
guess no one has any info on the Spearco... =P
spearco/code 3 are the same FMIC
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      02-12-2010, 07:36 AM   #130
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bump

we still need INDEPENDANT 2-3-4 gear datalogs from the following manufacturers FMICS:
-HPF
-AA
-RPI
-VK
-Stett
-ETS
-forge


please make sure the tests are done between 58-85 degree ambient temps and at a boost level of 13.5-14.5 psi so we can standardize the testing!

log boost, ait and rpm
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      02-24-2010, 07:04 AM   #131
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bump..
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      03-01-2010, 07:52 PM   #132
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BUMP

we still need INDEPENDANT 2-3-4 gear datalogs from the following manufacturers FMICS:
-HPF
-AA
-RPI
-VK
-Stett
-ETS
-forge


please make sure the tests are done between 58-85 degree ambient temps and at a boost level of 13.5-14.5 psi so we can standardize the testing!

log boost, ait and rpm as well as ambient temp
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