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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > what does a stock m3 put down to the floor?



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      08-26-2009, 12:00 PM   #45
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What do you guys think about the E92 335 Vs. E93 M3 DCT? Lets say stock for stock and then modded vs. modded? I am interested to know how the extra weight and loss of aerodynamics affects the $80k convertible M3... I personally think it is the dumbest car ever made since it weighs like 4200lbs and pushes like 350whp... Wouldnt it be better to get an E93 335 and mod it? I mean what could you do short of F/I on the E93 M3 to make it quick at all? My buddy is trading in his E92 335i for an E93 M3 DCT...
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      08-26-2009, 12:05 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by SouthCali335 View Post
What do you guys think about the E92 335 Vs. E93 M3 DCT? Lets say stock for stock and then modded vs. modded? I am interested to know how the extra weight and loss of aerodynamics affects the $80k convertible M3... I personally think it is the dumbest car ever made since it weighs like 4200lbs and pushes like 350whp... Wouldnt it be better to get an E93 335 and mod it? I mean what could you do short of F/I on the E93 M3 to make it quick at all? My buddy is trading in his E92 335i for an E93 M3 DCT...
The stock e93 M3 with DCT is going to trap in the 109-110 range.

Much quicker still than a stock e92 335i
Comparable to the earliest PROcede or JB2H tune.
Or you could say it's similiar in time to a JB3 1.4 Map 3 on 91 Octane time, but I may still give the edge to the Map 3 JB3 car but a tiny bit.
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      08-26-2009, 12:08 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by marcvtec View Post
Are you kidding?

That M3 was not even trying honestly.....
Honestly, it was. I was there.
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      08-26-2009, 12:08 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Driver72 View Post
The stock e93 M3 with DCT is going to trap in the 109-110 range.

Much quicker still than a stock e92 335i
Comparable to the earliest PROcede or JB2H tune.
Or you could say it's similiar in time to a JB3 1.4 Map 3 on 91 Octane time, but I may still give the edge to the Map 3 JB3 car but a tiny bit.
Wow so basically any e92 335 with a new tune like the JB3 1.4 running say map 7 or 8 with a DCI is going to pretty much destroy an E93 M3 modded or not...
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      08-26-2009, 12:24 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by SouthCali335 View Post
Wow so basically any e92 335 with a new tune like the JB3 1.4 running say map 7 or 8 with a DCI is going to pretty much destroy an E93 M3 modded or not...
of course not! you just said modded or not the M3 will lose....that opens up a whole new can of worms.......how modded?


the e93 M3 is a sick car, its not one you would buy if your a 19 yr old kid and all you want is the loudest quickest car available. it would be a fantastic sports cruiser and I would own one in a heartbeat if it fell in my lap. For the $$ there are plenty of other cars I would pick up 1st though.
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      08-26-2009, 12:52 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Sniz View Post
of course not! you just said modded or not the M3 will lose....that opens up a whole new can of worms.......how modded?


the e93 M3 is a sick car, its not one you would buy if your a 19 yr old kid and all you want is the loudest quickest car available. it would be a fantastic sports cruiser and I would own one in a heartbeat if it fell in my lap. For the $$ there are plenty of other cars I would pick up 1st though.
Yeah that's all i am saying too, is that for $85k+ (with tax and finance charges) there are cars our there convertible or not that will outperform the E93 M3... I honestly think BMW did not gap the performance enough from the N54 and their M3 V-8 motor... I hope the next gen M3 raises the bar and is actually worth the money... I know everyone hates to compare BMW to say, GM but when they build a sports car they make it 3175lbs pushing 505hp & 470tq(Z06)... I really hope BMW sticks a F/I motor in the next M3, then i would actually get one, but coming from the Audi S4 with an N/A V8 that is very very expensive to mod i just find it boring and sluggish...

People will talk about balance and useless crap but that really means nothing to me since i know my 335 felt very balanced at 420whp and 410wtq, so if the M3 was pushing something like that stock and then was more mod friendly i and a lot of other people would be all over it compared to a 335, aside from the extra options on the M3 i think the 335 is the better choice for performance if that is the goal, unless you dont mind spending $20k in performance mods to F/I an M3...
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      08-26-2009, 01:54 PM   #51
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the issue with an N54 racing an S65 engine, is that the N54 keeps its peak HP up to 6500 rpms, at which point u shift to the following gear. While you have shifted to the following gear, the S65 engine matched to a DCT is still climbing up the rev band producing more and more power every time its RPMs climb, and ur N54 is still trying to pick up power on the following gear u've shifted to. Once the s65 reaches its peak hp it shifts lightning quick on a really really short gear ratio, keeping the rev's right where the power is. Now imagine that 4 times (4 gear shifts). those couple of seconds are the ones that count, those are the seconds where the M3 equipped with an s65 matched to a DCT will pull away from u. And the only way you can prevent that from happening is by overcoming your gear shifting and 6500 rpm shifts with massive amounts of HP, not torque, but HP. Torque will only get ur car moving faster, horsepower will make your car pull away, and u will need, by the crap loads.
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      08-26-2009, 02:01 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by zamm3k View Post
the issue with an N54 racing an S65 engine, is that the N54 keeps its peak HP up to 6500 rpms, at which point u shift to the following gear. While you have shifted to the following gear, the S65 engine matched to a DCT is still climbing up the rev band producing more and more power every time its RPMs climb, and ur N54 is still trying to pick up power on the following gear u've shifted to. Once the s65 reaches its peak hp it shifts lightning quick on a really really short gear ratio, keeping the rev's right where the power is. Now imagine that 4 times (4 gear shifts). those couple of seconds are the ones that count, those are the seconds where the M3 equipped with an s65 matched to a DCT will pull away from u. And the only way you can prevent that from happening is by overcoming your gear shifting and 6500 rpm shifts with massive amounts of HP, not torque, but HP. Torque will only get ur car moving faster, horsepower will make your car pull away, and u will need, by the crap loads.
Horsepower is the by-product of torque... The M3 is seriously lacking in that torque dept... I drove a DCT M3 coming from my 400+whp 335 and i was just astounded by how sluggish it felt compared to my 335... Just felt a lot like my B6 S4...
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      08-26-2009, 02:10 PM   #53
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agreed.....no TQ, but plenty of HP up top, you have to wind the hell out of the engine but if you do you are rewarded.
also agreed. you wind it up and its a hell of a toy with a lovely sound. lol
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      08-26-2009, 02:12 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by SouthCali335 View Post
Horsepower is the by-product of torque... The M3 is seriously lacking in that torque dept... I drove a DCT M3 coming from my 400+whp 335 and i was just astounded by how sluggish it felt compared to my 335... Just felt a lot like my B6 S4...
keep your eye on the speedometer though........it is moving, you just dont have the same throw you back in the seat feeling.

I too was underwhelmed by the TQ, but coupled with the DCT the M3 is a capable machine for sure. On a track its not a contest at all.
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      08-26-2009, 02:14 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by SouthCali335 View Post
Horsepower is the by-product of torque... The M3 is seriously lacking in that torque dept... I drove a DCT M3 coming from my 400+whp 335 and i was just astounded by how sluggish it felt compared to my 335... Just felt a lot like my B6 S4...
I understand how it can feel sluggish. My 135i is fast. and my best friend owns a DCT m3 which I drive regularly. Unfortunately, just cuz it feels sluggish doesnt mean its slow. It lacks torque, specially for a V8. But again, its got a very high rev band, and it produces power, and a lot of it. And it does so, up top, which is specially important because once the N54 has shifted the M3 is still producing power, and is going to continue producing for at least 1500 more rpms. I'm not talking outta my butt. I tried this multiple times when I used to be on a jb3 1.3 alone. The result was always the same. Yes I could pull on him at first but once the M3 starts moving it just kept going and going. I stick to my original theory. With wut he's got, vs an M3, I still see the M3 beating him.
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      08-26-2009, 02:18 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by zamm3k View Post
I understand how it can feel sluggish. My 135i is fast. and my best friend owns a DCT m3 which I drive regularly. Unfortunately, just cuz it feels sluggish doesnt mean its slow. It lacks torque, specially for a V8. But again, its got a very high rev band, and it produces power, and a lot of it. And it does so, up top, which is specially important because once the N54 has shifted the M3 is still producing power, and is going to continue producing for at least 1500 more rpms. I'm not talking outta my butt. I tried this multiple times when I used to be on a jb3 1.3 alone. The result was always the same. Yes I could pull on him at first but once the M3 starts moving it just kept going and going. I stick to my original theory. With wut he's got, vs an M3, I still see the M3 beating him.

The problem in this situation is a 335i Manual and Tune vs the stock M3 DCT. M3 will most likely win in this situation on 91 pump gas. Now if the 335i runs a race gas map and shifts well, he will beat the DCT M3.
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      08-26-2009, 02:25 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by zamm3k View Post
I understand how it can feel sluggish. My 135i is fast. and my best friend owns a DCT m3 which I drive regularly. Unfortunately, just cuz it feels sluggish doesnt mean its slow. It lacks torque, specially for a V8. But again, its got a very high rev band, and it produces power, and a lot of it. And it does so, up top, which is specially important because once the N54 has shifted the M3 is still producing power, and is going to continue producing for at least 1500 more rpms. I'm not talking outta my butt. I tried this multiple times when I used to be on a jb3 1.3 alone. The result was always the same. Yes I could pull on him at first but once the M3 starts moving it just kept going and going. I stick to my original theory. With wut he's got, vs an M3, I still see the M3 beating him.
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The problem in this situation is a 335i Manual and Tune vs the stock M3 DCT. M3 will most likely win in this situation on 91 pump gas. Now if the 335i runs a race gas map and shifts well, he will beat the DCT M3.
I agree with both above posts.

you have to remember that coming from a tuned n54 you are used to monster TQ down low (3000rpms or so) so when you romp on the new M3 at 3,000rpms it feels dog slow. Downshift w the paddles and half a second later your blasting forward at 5500rpms all the way to 8000+. Its addicting, I liked it.

and damned the sound of an Eisennmann race or however you spell it is just sex on wheels on those cars. Cant wait to ride in a blown M3 soon.

for a street car ill take the 335 because it will keep me out of trouble, if I had to rev the crap out of my highly wound V8 to make power I'd be on the cops radars all the time. Being able to squirt forward really quick from 3k rpms is easier.

on the track, N/A v8 all day.
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      08-26-2009, 03:08 PM   #58
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I agree with both above posts.

you have to remember that coming from a tuned n54 you are used to monster TQ down low (3000rpms or so) so when you romp on the new M3 at 3,000rpms it feels dog slow. Downshift w the paddles and half a second later your blasting forward at 5500rpms all the way to 8000+. Its addicting, I liked it.

and damned the sound of an Eisennmann race or however you spell it is just sex on wheels on those cars. Cant wait to ride in a blown M3 soon.

for a street car ill take the 335 because it will keep me out of trouble, if I had to rev the crap out of my highly wound V8 to make power I'd be on the cops radars all the time. Being able to squirt forward really quick from 3k rpms is easier.

on the track, N/A v8 all day.
hell yeah i agree completely.

I know this is kind of off topic but my cousin used to have a e60 m5 which i used to drive from time to time and on the street it was ok but nothing special because you had to rev that sucker to get the power out. For quick traffic darts it wasnt great but when it came to wide open highway forget about it nothing could keep up.

Reading your post makes me really wanna drive a dct m3 VERY BAD i wanna feel that high end power again!!! The other car i drive frequent is CLS 55(brothers) and im so used to having power at low end.
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      08-26-2009, 03:22 PM   #59
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Keep in mind its only a matter of time before the 335i gets the DCT too. Its already in Europes 335i's and hopefully they deciede to change their minds and put it in a 2011.
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      08-26-2009, 03:43 PM   #60
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Keep in mind its only a matter of time before the 335i gets the DCT too. Its already in Europes 335i's and hopefully they deciede to change their minds and put it in a 2011.
true, that will be great. I wonder if it will match as well with the narrower rev band of the n54
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      08-26-2009, 03:44 PM   #61
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hell yeah i agree completely.

I know this is kind of off topic but my cousin used to have a e60 m5 which i used to drive from time to time and on the street it was ok but nothing special because you had to rev that sucker to get the power out. For quick traffic darts it wasnt great but when it came to wide open highway forget about it nothing could keep up.

Reading your post makes me really wanna drive a dct m3 VERY BAD i wanna feel that high end power again!!! The other car i drive frequent is CLS 55(brothers) and im so used to having power at low end.


you'd probably like to drive my turbo'd M3 then......boost from 3k to 7.2k and TQ as well. At 3100lbs and over 400whp its a rocket. and its about to get faster! Much faster!
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      08-26-2009, 08:11 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by zamm3k View Post
the issue with an N54 racing an S65 engine, is that the N54 keeps its peak HP up to 6500 rpms, at which point u shift to the following gear. While you have shifted to the following gear, the S65 engine matched to a DCT is still climbing up the rev band producing more and more power every time its RPMs climb, and ur N54 is still trying to pick up power on the following gear u've shifted to. Once the s65 reaches its peak hp it shifts lightning quick on a really really short gear ratio, keeping the rev's right where the power is. Now imagine that 4 times (4 gear shifts). those couple of seconds are the ones that count, those are the seconds where the M3 equipped with an s65 matched to a DCT will pull away from u. And the only way you can prevent that from happening is by overcoming your gear shifting and 6500 rpm shifts with massive amounts of HP, not torque, but HP. Torque will only get ur car moving faster, horsepower will make your car pull away, and u will need, by the crap loads.






i dont know about that from the words or Carrol Shelby ......

"Horsepower sells car's tourqe wins races" iam sure my boy don can
vauge for me on that 1 .......
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      08-26-2009, 08:50 PM   #63
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i dont know about that from the words or Carrol Shelby ......

"Horsepower sells car's tourqe wins races" iam sure my boy don can
vauge for me on that 1 .......
I guess I have no answer for that. But if the equation were that simple, an RS4 would have to beat an M3 every single run. And it doesn't. It never has and probably never will. (atleast for now). Again, I talk from experience. I've sat on the cockpit of an M3 while we pulled from an RS4, and I've been in that same RS4 being beat by the M3. (I was in two places at once, lol, JK).
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      08-27-2009, 07:37 AM   #64
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just make sure the m3 doesn't mix in 100 octane either..
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      08-27-2009, 09:21 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Jon335iFL View Post
i dont know about that from the words or Carrol Shelby ......

"Horsepower sells car's tourqe wins races" iam sure my boy don can
vauge for me on that 1 .......
shelby is referring to road courses with very similar cars.
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      08-27-2009, 10:14 AM   #66
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you'd probably like to drive my turbo'd M3 then......boost from 3k to 7.2k and TQ as well. At 3100lbs and over 400whp its a rocket. and its about to get faster! Much faster!
Haha thats sick!!! I have yet to feel what it's like for big power in a small light car like yours the rush is probably awesome. Sure AMGs have lots of torque but they are big and hefty suckers. What are you going to do to it next??? Any faster and it's gonna be hard to contain on the streets it's probably a handful already lol
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