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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Exhaust/intake mod = instant warranty death?



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      08-26-2009, 08:50 AM   #1
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Exhaust/intake mod = instant warranty death?

Do all the people here with DCIs, catless DPs, and cat-back exhausts not give a hoot about their BMW warranty or do they remove these parts each and every time they get the car serviced?

I'm dying to get a coated DP and intake, to relieve the turbo's workload and move heat out of the turbocharger, but I'm not sure I am ready for a $16,000 gamble.

Just wondering what you felt about that.
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      08-26-2009, 08:54 AM   #2
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For regular maintenance I always kept my mods on. Of course it will vary from dealership but unless you bring your car in for a specific problem that has to do with the turbos or something they wont really care either.
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      08-26-2009, 08:57 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lpphreakx06 View Post
For regular maintenance I always kept my mods on. Of course it will vary from dealership but unless you bring your car in for a specific problem that has to do with the turbos or something they wont really care either.
...... whatever intake I happen to have installed at the time, DPs etc. stay on for routine service. No issues ....... yet.
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      08-26-2009, 09:02 AM   #4
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Bro I brought my car in for service at Circle BMW (NJ) with all my mods on.

BMW Performance Exhaust
Headlights Converted from Halogen to HID Xenon
H&R Touring Cup Suspension kit
afe intake

The only thing they did was complement me on my car looking and sounding good.
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      08-26-2009, 09:04 AM   #5
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I wonder if the service advisors take note of any modifications so in the event of a future turbo/engine issue they can play that card?
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      08-26-2009, 09:06 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DefBringer View Post
I wonder if the service advisors take note of any modifications so in the event of a future turbo/engine issue they can play that card?
SA's are puppets ....... the tech/mechanic working on your car makes the determination as to whether or not anything is noted on the car.
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      08-26-2009, 09:07 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ToadHollow View Post
SA's are puppets ....... the tech/mechanic working on your car makes the determination as to whether or not anything is noted on the car.
So they build portfolios or cases for each car to reference? Scary.
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      08-26-2009, 09:13 AM   #8
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If someone brings their car in due to runnability issues requiring the vehicle be run through diagnostics THEN everything that has been changed on the car that could/might have a remote connection to the problem with the car ...... will be noted. This information is also uploaded to BMWNA automatically as soon as diagnostics are started.

I brought my car in a while back for a CEL issue. Catted DPs, FMIC, exhaust & intake installed. Diagnostics were run, BMWNA informed my dealer that car would have to be returned to stock to perform proper diagnostics.

No worries, no problem. BMWNA knows my car intimately at this point. Full warranty remains intact.

I installed an O2 simulator and all is well in my world.
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      08-26-2009, 09:16 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ToadHollow View Post
If someone brings their car in due to runnability issues requiring the vehicle be run through diagnostics THEN everything that has been changed on the car that could/might have a remote connection to the problem with the car ...... will be noted. This information is also uploaded to BMWNA automatically as soon as diagnostics are started.

I brought my car in a while back for a CEL issue. Catted DPs, FMIC, exhaust & intake installed. Diagnostics were run, BMWNA informed my dealer that car would have to be returned to stock to perform proper diagnostics.

No worries, no problem. BMWNA knows my car intimately at this point. Full warranty remains intact.

I installed an O2 simulator and all iss well in my world.

That's exactly what the mechanic told me... Basically, if my car threw any engine codes I would have to put the OEM intake on before bringing it in.
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      08-26-2009, 09:25 AM   #10
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I saw this message on another forum dedicated to our cars on this same topic:

--------------------------------------
Before:
Originally Posted by Boost_Nation
going into my dealer today just to have them scan for codes on DME and give me a print out.

Going in with PROcede V3 fully installed, a BMS intake, and a cat back. . . .

After:
Originally Posted by Boost_Nation
Went in for an oil change and fuel pump replacement, which there was a recall for anyway. . . . . played it fair and honest with the dealer knowing that one way or another, they would/will find out about my mods. I'm beyond upset right now. They wont do anything to it and have flagged it. . . . seriously, I'm extremely down about this. I've been so anxious, nervous, and worried all these weeks about this situation, and now, the worst outcome that could have happened to me, happened to me.

Please, save the "You pay to play," and "you should have known" comments to yourself. I'm not new to this forum or ANY of the issues currently circulating on the forum regarding the 335 and warranty issues. So unless you have something positive or enlightening to say. . . . I'd sincerely appreciate it if you guys kept the rubbing of the issue in my face to a minimum. Try to understand the situation I, as well as others, are in. I wasn't even given a chance. . . . I've talked to Shiv and he's disappointed with this non sense as well. They say nice people finish last, well, I'm sure it's because they let people walk all over them. Should I have taken my procede and intake out and tried to fraud the dealer? Sure, but why. . . . we all know that they can/will find out if it's been tampered with. The techs and I had honest conversations about BMW and their crack down tactics. Its a dead end.

I'm sorry about this super emo post guys, but to a die hard enthusiast who has loved his car for over a year now, this is very disturbing news.

shit chokes me up.
---------------------------------------
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      08-26-2009, 09:31 AM   #11
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DIRECTED TO THE POST ABOVE ........ ^^^^


Going in with a piggyback tune INSTALLED is beyond the realm of common sense. If you have the tune installed at ANY time then you're already "defrauding" the warranty of the vehicle manufacturer the minute you attempt to have the car repaired or serviced due to issues.

No-brainer ...
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      08-26-2009, 09:31 AM   #12
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Going in with PROcede V3 (or any turbo mod chip) is a bad idea and even the most forgiving mechanic will frown upon it. That is the one MOD that you should NOT have on your car when going in for maintenance.
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      08-26-2009, 09:34 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Delta0311 View Post
Going in with PROcede V3 (or any turbo mod chip) is a bad idea and even the most forgiving mechanic will frown upon it. That is the one MOD that you should NOT have on your car when going in for maintenance.
So the distinction exists between going in with any kind of ECU modification and exhaust/intake mods?

I would always fully remove a piggyback before going in (it's too easy to do). I just wasn't sure about the exhaust/intake business. Those are obviously a little more involved when it comes to removal!
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      08-26-2009, 09:39 AM   #14
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ECU flash is non-detectable (so they say). Dinan is known by BMW .......... a piggyback voids EVERYTHING if found out.

Most dealers could care less about catback exhausts or intakes. Downpipes, especially catless, are a definite no-no. Yet, I haven't had any issues.
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      08-26-2009, 09:41 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DefBringer View Post
So the distinction exists between going in with any kind of ECU modification and exhaust/intake mods?

I would always fully remove a piggyback before going in (it's too easy to do). I just wasn't sure about the exhaust/intake business. Those are obviously a little more involved when it comes to removal!
The mechanic won't care about that as long as it is properly installed. The only time he will say something is if they have to run a diagnostic, at which point you will have to revert back to stock. The mechanic at Circle BMW told me to keep my OEM intake in my trunk when ever I come in. In my case the exhaust does not matter since it's BMW performance.
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      08-26-2009, 09:45 AM   #16
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Damn. Well, I really wanted a catless DP. So much for that
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      08-26-2009, 04:59 PM   #17
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I get so tired of reiterating this every day but alas it is my job.

Your dealer cannot "void your warranty" because of aftermarket parts. It's illegal. Read: Magnusson Moss Warranty Act.

They can, however, deny service, if they are able to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that your modifications caused the failure.

If you are running 20lbs boost and your engine is misfiring, good luck.
If you're running coilovers and your subframe cracks... good luck.

However, if you have a JB+ and your navigation stops working, or you are running an intake and your high pressure fuel pump goes out... tell them you know your rights and that they will have to prove your modifications caused the failure.

With that said, you probably don't want to deal with it. It's a headache and they can be real jerks. Last time I took my car in for service they made me agree to a $150 diagnosis charge contingent upon them determining it was my fault. I was right, it turns out the replacement was covered, but ... yeah.

Summary: Your warranty cannot be "voided"

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      08-27-2009, 01:41 PM   #18
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JLevi, is this the same in any country or just the US?
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      08-27-2009, 01:47 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valmont View Post
JLevi, is this the same in any country or just the US?
The Magnusson Moss Act is a part of American legislation only. Canada may have something similar...
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      08-27-2009, 01:49 PM   #20
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Quote:
Purpose

According to the Report of the House of Representatives which accompanied the law (House Report No. 93-1197, 93d Cong 2d Sess.) the Magnuson-Moss act was enacted by Congress in response to the widespread misuse by merchants of express warranties and disclaimers. The legislative history indicates that the purpose of the Act is to make warranties on consumer products more readily understood and enforceable and to provide the Federal Trade Commission with means to better protect consumers.[1]

The statute is remedial in nature and is intended to protect consumers from deceptive warranty practices. Consumer products are not required to have warranties, but if one is given, it must comply with the Magnuson-Moss Act.

[edit] Definitions used

The Magnuson-Moss Act contains many definitions:

* A "consumer" is a buyer of consumer goods for personal use. A buyer of consumer products for resale is not a consumer.
* A "supplier" is any person engaged in the business of making a consumer product directly or indirectly available to consumers.
* A "warrantor" is any supplier or other person who gives or offers a written warranty or who has some obligation under an implied warranty.
* A "consumer product" is generally any tangible personal property for sale and that is normally used for personal, family, or household purposes. It is important to note that the determination whether a good is a consumer product requires a factual finding, on a case-by-case basis. Najran Co. for General Contracting and Trading v. Fleetwood Enterprises, Inc., 659 F. Supp. 1081 (S.D. Ga. 1986).
* A "written warranty" (also called an express warranty) is any written promise made in connection with the sale of a consumer product by a supplier to a consumer that relates to the material and/or workmanship and that affirms that the product is defect-free or will meet a certain standard of performance over a specified time.
* An "implied warranty" is defined in state law. The Magnuson-Moss Act simply provides limitations on disclaimers and provides a remedy for their violation.
* Designations:
o A "full warranty" is one that meets the federal minimum standards for a warranty. Such warranties must be "conspicuously designated" as full warranties. If each of the following five statements is true about your warranty's terms and conditions, it is a "full" warranty:
+ You do not limit the duration of implied warranties.
+ You provide warranty service to anyone who owns the product during the warranty period; that is, you do not limit coverage to first purchasers.
+ You provide warranty service free of charge, including such costs as returning the product or removing and reinstalling the product when necessary.
+ You provide, at the consumer's choice, either a replacement or a full refund if, after a reasonable number of tries, you are unable to repair the product.
+ You do not require consumers to perform any duty as a precondition for receiving service, except notifying you that service is needed, unless you can demonstrate that the duty is reasonable.
o A "limited warranty" is one that does not meet the federal minimums. Such warranties must be "conspicuously designated" as limited warranties.
* A "multiple warranty" is part full and part limited.
* A "service contract" is different from a warranty because service contracts do not affirm the quality or workmanship of a consumer product. A service contract is a written instrument in which a supplier agrees to perform, over a fixed period of time or for a specified duration, services relating to the maintenance or repair, or both, of a consumer product. Agreements that meet the statutory definition of service contracts, but are sold and regulated under state law as contracts of insurance, do not come under the Act's provisions.

[edit] Requirements

The Act provides that any warrantor warranting a consumer product to a consumer by means of a written warranty must disclose, fully and conspicuously, in simple and readily understood language, the terms and conditions of the warranty to the extent required by rules of the Federal Trade Commission. The FTC has enacted regulations governing the disclosure of written consumer product warranty terms and conditions on consumer products actually costing the consumer more than $15. The Rules can be found at 16 C.F.R. Part 700.

Under the terms of the Act, ambiguous statements in a warranty are construed against the drafter of the warranty.

Likewise, service contracts must fully, clearly, and conspicuously disclose their terms and conditions in simple and readily understood language.

Warrantors cannot require that only branded parts be used with the product in order to retain the warranty.[2] This is commonly referred to as the "tie-in sales" provisions[3], and is frequently mentioned in the context of third-party computer parts, such as memory and hard drives.

[edit] Full Warranty Requirements

Under a full warranty, in the case of a defect, malfunction, or failure to conform with the written warranty, the warrantor:

* must, as a minimum, remedy the consumer product within a reasonable time and without charge;
* may not impose any limitation on the duration of any implied warranty on the product;
* may not exclude or limit consequential damages for a breach of any written or implied warranty on the product, unless the exclusion or limitation conspicuously appears on the face of the warranty; and
* if the product, or a component part, contains a defect or malfunction, must permit the consumer to elect either a refund or replacement without charge, after a reasonable number of repair attempts.

In addition, the warrantor may not impose any duty, other than notification, upon any consumer, as a condition of securing the repair of any consumer product that malfunctions, is defective, or does not conform to the written warranty. However, the warrantor may require consumers to return a defective item to its place of purchase for repair.

[edit] Limitations

The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act does not invalidate or restrict any right or remedy of any consumer under any other federal law, nor does the Act supersede the Federal Trade Commission Act as it pertains to antitrust actions.

The Act does not invalidate or restrict any right or remedy of any consumer under state law. The Act is not the dominant regulation of consumer product warranties, and while it prescribes certain disclosures and restricts certain limitations on warranties, it leaves other warranty law untouched.[4]

Although the Act covers warranties on repair or replacement parts in consumer products, warranties on services for repairs are not covered.

The federal minimum standards for full warranties are waived if the warrantor can show that the problem associated with a warranted consumer product was caused by damage while in the possession of the consumer, or by unreasonable use, including a failure to provide reasonable and necessary maintenance.

[edit] Remedies under the Act

The Act is meant to provide consumers with access to reasonable and effective remedies where there is a breach of warranty on a consumer product. The Act provides for informal dispute-settlement procedures and for actions brought by the government and by private parties.

The FTC has been mandated by Congress to promulgate rules to encourage the use of alternative dispute resolution, and full warranties may require mediation and/or arbitration as a first step toward settling disputes.

In addition, the federal government has the authority to take injunctive action against a supplier or warrantor who fails to meet the requirements of the act.

Finally, consumers may seek redress in the courts for alleged violations of the Magnuson-Moss Act. A consumer who has been injured by the noncompliance of a supplier may bring an action in state court if the amount in controversy is between $25 and $50,000, or a class action in state court if the number of class plaintiffs is less than 100. If the jurisdictional amount, or number of plaintiffs, exceed these limits, such an action may be brought in federal district court.[5] Moreover, one of the key aids to the effectiveness of the Act is that a prevailing plaintiff may recover reasonable costs of suit, including attorney fees.[6]

LEARN TO SEARCH PEOPLE !!!

KNOW YOUR OWN RIGHTS
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      08-27-2009, 02:34 PM   #21
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What's to stop them from voiding your warranty though? You're gonna pay up more money to hire a lawyer and fight them over a warranty which I'm sure their huge pool of lawyers would find some way to win in the end..
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      08-27-2009, 06:18 PM   #22
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^^^^ nail on the head.
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