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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > GIAC Stage 1 boost graph - WOT 3rd



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      09-05-2009, 08:22 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enrita View Post
We are all too tuned for stage 1. would be nice to hava a member with stock car and stage 1.
I am sure the issue on our cars will be resolved with stage 2 or higher.
well you asked for -- and you got it

Bone Stock E92 with BMW Performance Exhaust ... the numbers are.....

Note: these runs were performed after driving approx 30miles in 85-90 degree weather on California highways .. 20min cool down for dyno set up and a lil b/s session with Mark (the owner of MD) -- cool guy

all runs were back to back .. with no more than 30-45 sec cool down (no engine shutdown) .. just quick review of numbers and next run....

third run showed the most power and torque. maybe this tune does work well with the stock intercooler...

the numbers weren't what I expected.. and I knew the car was not at her peak with the frikkin techron in the tank.. but overall it running pretty smooth -- not the most powerful tune out .. but then again i'm not running a lot of power adders either.. Stage 2 -- here i come

p.s. unfortunately I dont have a baseline dyno to compare my improvements so .. this will stand as my baseline for the future.

cheers
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      09-05-2009, 08:38 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OctoberfestE92 View Post
well you asked for -- and you got it

Bone Stock E92 with BMW Performance Exhaust ... the numbers are.....

Note: these runs were performed after driving approx 30miles in 85-90 degree weather on California highways .. 20min cool down for dyno set up and a lil b/s session with Mark (the owner of MD) -- cool guy

all runs were back to back .. with no more than 30-45 sec cool down (no engine shutdown) .. just quick review of numbers and next run....

third run showed the most power and torque. maybe this tune does work well with the stock intercooler...

the numbers weren't what I expected.. and I knew the car was not at her peak with the frikkin techron in the tank.. but overall it running pretty smooth -- not the most powerful tune out .. but then again i'm not running a lot of power adders either.. Stage 2 -- here i come

p.s. unfortunately I dont have a baseline dyno to compare my improvements so .. this will stand as my baseline for the future.

cheers
While not the greatest results, they are in-line with the other two independent stock car GIAC dyno results posted on this forum. In fact, it may be even a litle bit better since you posted SAE corrected numbers and not the usual STD numbers we see on this forum. With their monster fan, MD certainly has an advantage with cooling compared to most other dyno shops. If you get a chance, post STD numbers along with the conditions (which will show the Correction Factor).

I think the reason are surprised with your results had to do with the initial wide spread expectation of making ~350whp at 13.5psi of peak boost on an otherwise stock car.

With better octane, I'd expect that top end to clean up. With your gas, on your warm runs, it's only making more than ~305whp for ~600rpm. There is an obvious and repeatable knock event at 5200rpm. It's nice to finally see some more results coming in. Thanks for taking the time to test your car and post your results.

Shiv
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      09-05-2009, 09:28 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OctoberfestE92 View Post
well you asked for -- and you got it

Bone Stock E92 with BMW Performance Exhaust ... the numbers are.....

Note: these runs were performed after driving approx 30miles in 85-90 degree weather on California highways .. 20min cool down for dyno set up and a lil b/s session with Mark (the owner of MD) -- cool guy

all runs were back to back .. with no more than 30-45 sec cool down (no engine shutdown) .. just quick review of numbers and next run....

third run showed the most power and torque. maybe this tune does work well with the stock intercooler...

the numbers weren't what I expected.. and I knew the car was not at her peak with the frikkin techron in the tank.. but overall it running pretty smooth -- not the most powerful tune out .. but then again i'm not running a lot of power adders either.. Stage 2 -- here i come

p.s. unfortunately I dont have a baseline dyno to compare my improvements so .. this will stand as my baseline for the future.

cheers
For a bone stock car, I think those numbers are great! Especially since they're the SAE numbers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
With better octane, I'd expect that top end to clean up. With your gas, on your warm runs, it's only making more than ~305whp for ~600rpm. There is an obvious and repeatable knock event at 5200rpm. It's nice to finally see some more results coming in. Thanks for taking the time to test your car and post your results.

Shiv
Will you show me the repeatable "knock" event that you are talking about in this dyno? I don't see anything.
Do you have any proof of the knock event?
Also, I believe that GIAC said that this is a map for 91 octane and that any race gas added won't make a difference.
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      09-05-2009, 09:45 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. 5 View Post
For a bone stock car, I think those numbers are great! Especially since they're the SAE numbers.



Will you show me the repeatable "knock" event that you are talking about in this dyno? I don't see anything.
Do you have any proof of the knock event?
Also, I believe that GIAC said that this is a map for 91 octane and that any race gas added won't make a difference.
See that RPM point (5100RPM) suddenly after which the power curves diverge by up to 20whp? Notice how Run 2 has the lowest power in that range yet runs the most boost?

That's evidence of knock. And, as such, the tune will make more power with higher octane fuel. More octane will also make the dyno results more consistent and smooth.

Cheers,
shiv
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      09-05-2009, 10:22 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
See that RPM point (5100RPM) suddenly after which the power curves diverge by up to 20whp? Notice how Run 2 has the lowest power in that range yet runs the most boost?
No, I don't see that point that you are talking about and also run 2 doesn't run the most boost.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
And, as such, the tune will make more power with higher octane fuel. More octane will also make the dyno results more consistent and smooth.
That's not what they say. They say that their stage 1 map has torque settings specified specificaly for 91 octane. Adding 100 octane might throw codes and or CELs. 94 octane was verified to work but saw at most another 3 whp.
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      09-05-2009, 10:53 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. 5 View Post
No, I don't see that point that you are talking about and also run 2 doesn't run the most boost.
Notice the boost pressure of Run 2 in the 5500-6200rpm range. It runs the most boost in that region. Yet has the least power. This is evidence of knock retard. I don't think I'm going out on a limb here.
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      09-05-2009, 11:43 PM   #29
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i cant see how they can tune it ONLY for 91. I would bet if you throw in 100 octane, boost levels may stay the same but the ignition advance the factory ECU would be able to do would be good for more power.
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      09-06-2009, 12:17 AM   #30
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how can you believe that adding race gas will make the car run worse????
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      09-06-2009, 01:14 AM   #31
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Those dyno results look OK, sort of what I expected, but I am surprised this flash is delivering such sloppy boost control? Say I buy the flash, when they fix it will they reflash it for me for free, or do I need to pay labor again?

Also can someone do a GIAC dyno on race gas?
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      09-06-2009, 07:56 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMR View Post
i cant see how they can tune it ONLY for 91. I would bet if you throw in 100 octane, boost levels may stay the same but the ignition advance the factory ECU would be able to do would be good for more power.
I dont' see it either, but I'll let them communicate what they said to me. I'm trying to understand everything that has been explained to me because the flashes are pretty different than the piggies.
You mention ignition advance. They have set the timing specificaly for 91, so do you think it's possible that even though 100 is added, timing will stay at the 91 octane level?.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sniz View Post
how can you believe that adding race gas will make the car run worse????
I know huh? It's hard to believe. I hope I'm wrong since I would love to get more power than I'm making right now, but why would it be so hard to believe that what I would be saying is true?
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      09-06-2009, 09:05 AM   #33
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I see way too much defensiveness and not enough reading comprehension and COMMON SENSE regarding basic engine fundamentals.

Everyone needs to take a moment and really think about what was is happening here, don't trust what people tell you, just think for yourself... learn about how the n54 works, learn about things like knock, and octane... the info is out there... Wikipedia is a good start

Here is my take on it... in 4 points.

1. The GIAC dyno here shows knock retard at 5200rpm , probably because of heat and octane. This is obvious, because if you look at the boost, as soon as it gets to its peak, power starts to pull off, in a "dip", this is knock retard... then as the boost starts to lower, the power comes back in a bit. The DME is pulling timing in reaction to knock. Too much pressure and heat caused knock, the DME reacted by pulling timing, then as the knock stopped, the DME eased timing back in, the n54 has a very good knock control system.

2. That knock would go away if you increase the octane... you are just raising the knock threshold, in NO WAY should this EVER cause problems... maybe GIAC thought you were talking about LEADED race gas?

3. Shiv pointed out that it was running 14.5psi of boost... Mr. 5 says that GIAC never claimed that their tune would run less, Shiv shows posts where GIAC said they run 13.5 psi peak, on average. Mr. 5 thinks that shiv meant 13.5 average over the rev range, when obviously shiv meant 13.5 PEAK, averaged over a sample group of cars, IN SIMILAR CONDITIONS.

4. it appears that GIAC's tune, as with a STOCK car, is compensating, to a point, with more boost as the air charge becomes less dense with oxygen because the ambient temp increased... this is something that other tunes do the OPPOSITE... for example, jb3 and procede have IAT based boost DECAY... they keep the peak targets the same, and then when it gets REALLY hot, they decay boost... why? because the hotter it gets, the more likely the car is going to knock... at which point you have choices... lower boost, lower the temp(intercooler, spray, fan, etc), retard timing, or, increase the octane... all of these increase KNOCK RESISTANCE. there are other things, but basically it IS as simple as that, and the data posted so far confirms this, as well as the data that everyone already has about how the n54's stock tune reacts to environmental changes by raising boost when it gets hot (or higher altitude), and lowering boost when it gets cool, to keep the same engine output as the air charge becomes less dense with oxygen. Apparently GIAC left this compensation in place with their tune.

People are getting defensive and posting before actually thinking about what they are responding to... everyone needs to take a moment and REALLY think about the issues we see in this thread. There are logical conclusions to be made from this data.

In threads like this, the cooler heads will prevail.

-Rick

Last edited by RiXst3r; 09-06-2009 at 09:19 PM.
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      09-06-2009, 09:05 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. 5 View Post
Thanks for that equation Scalbert! I've always wondered how to determine the actual PSI based on the BT logs.
Here's the same graph but I put things into better perspective using your equation.

I started in 2nd gear at 40mph, then went to 3rd and ended in 4th.
GIAC states that the reason why actual boost is higher than specified is due to running the stage 1 tune on a stage 2 car. I'm slightly overboosting but this should be taken care of in a couple weeks.
Looks good. One adendum though, this is assuming you are at or near sea level which I beleive you are. You could record barometric pressure and subtract that to get perfect numbers. But this should be in the ballpark.
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      09-06-2009, 12:10 PM   #35
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I have FMIC, catted downpipes and catback exhuast, am I better off waiting until stage 2 comes out to flash?

I am getting a little bit nervous seeing the boost logs and reading comments that people can feel this drop in boost on the road because some of us are "over-modded" for only a stage 1 tune...
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      09-06-2009, 01:18 PM   #36
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How are you catless cars getting rid of the CE light with the GIAC flash?
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      09-06-2009, 02:45 PM   #37
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How are you catless cars getting rid of the CE light with the GIAC flash?
With BMS DPs fix / O2 sims
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      09-06-2009, 02:57 PM   #38
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Ok drove more today and by giving lets say 50-70% gas the boost cutting is even more pronounced on 4th for example. Really hope stage 2 is coming out soon. This is getting annoying...
Can someone technical agree or explain that the reason could really be because of overboosting with the Catless Dps?
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      09-06-2009, 03:14 PM   #39
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Enrita, why don't you ask for Giac support tomorrow? I believe no vendor wants their support requests on the forums.
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      09-06-2009, 03:26 PM   #40
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they already told me is because of the dps overboosting. I just would like to have the opinion of other people thats all.
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      09-06-2009, 03:33 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enrita View Post
Ok drove more today and by giving lets say 50-70% gas the boost cutting is even more pronounced on 4th for example. Really hope stage 2 is coming out soon. This is getting annoying...
Can someone technical agree or explain that the reason could really be because of overboosting with the Catless Dps?
Yes, it is very possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by enrita View Post
they already told me is because of the dps overboosting. I just would like to have the opinion of other people thats all.
Here is my opinion... since you asked

A stock car will do this as well, but since you are talking about much lower boost levels, it doesn't cause any issues... the DME controls it with throttle closure and adaptation... but there are still more spikes and overboosting with downpipes.

If a tune controls the wastegates to hit a boost target without compensating for different variables caused by adding catless DP's, the the quicker spool and reduced backpressure will cause overboosting, yes.

Anyone remember that PROcede v2, when first announced, was specifically NOT for cars with mods like DP's that reduce backpressure, for this same very reason... of course, this was YEARS ago... This is now a thing of the past for new piggybacks like jb3 and procede v3... they kinda have us spoiled... they act as a secondary boost control system, keeping things in check.

v3 and jb3 piggybacks get around this by making the tune *smart*, and detect/monitor the solenoid duty cycles as well as the boost pressure from the t-map sensor as boost is building, and create a P.I.D. based system to target your boost. This way, you can change anything about the flow with downpipes, intercoolers, etc... and the tune is smart enough to keep your boost on target, and keep the DME happy

Now, with a flash, you have to try and recode the new boost control logic into the DME... not an easy task to completely reprogram the boost control, rather than just change the targets and modify the range of the duty cycle allowed.

so, instead, they just make different flashes for different mods so that the tune is running on a predictable set of hardware.

-Rick

Last edited by RiXst3r; 09-06-2009 at 04:10 PM.
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      09-06-2009, 03:37 PM   #42
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Great! thanks Rick, makes sense :-)
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      09-06-2009, 03:38 PM   #43
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Their explanation makes sense.
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      09-06-2009, 03:52 PM   #44
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From all those graphs and explanations that I have seen until now it seems to me that the piggybacks are significantly more mature than the GIAC flash. I mean, look at the boost oscillations even with a stock car. Maybe GIAC should have had a more widespread beta testing phase or something. Or maybe the 30-trial period is in fact a BETA program ? Also, increasing boost when temps rise just proves that they wanted to compete with the piggybacks at any price, including the engine longevity price.
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