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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > GIAC Stage 1 boost graph - WOT 3rd



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      09-06-2009, 04:22 PM   #45
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GIAC offers 30 days money back as a standard policy. Check on their site.
Also even a Stock 335i will heatsoak pretty fast by doing constant pulls, same with the BMW performance kit. Our std. Intercoolers are extremely small if you compair for example with an Audi or VW intercooler in the TFSI serie.
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      09-06-2009, 04:42 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enrita View Post
GIAC offers 30 days money back as a standard policy. Check on their site.
Also even a Stock 335i will heatsoak pretty fast by doing constant pulls, same with the BMW performance kit. Our std. Intercoolers are extremely small if you compair for example with an Audi or VW intercooler in the TFSI serie.
This is not the problem. The problem is that they INCREASE boost instead of fading it when heatsoak occurs. This is a problem for the long-term reliability of the engine.
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      09-06-2009, 05:12 PM   #47
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Maybe I'm missing something but where is the data that shows they are raising boost targets as IAT's increase? THe logs I see earlier in this thread show a nice boost taper to redline with the actual boost right in line where it should be.

Has anyone actually seen any graphs of EGTs for the different tunes? IMO EGTs are the major cause for concern in terms of long term reliability followed closely by staying on the compressor map. There are lots of different ways to tune for the same power(more timing, leaner, more boost etc etc) but the safety of the tune is usually seen in the EGTs they are putting out and if it's in spec. IN the audi world APR GIAC, REVO and Unitronic all tune quite differently but in the end all make nearly the same gains and within the same safety margins.

Note that any car with a downpipe will lower EGTs as it is reducing friction post turbo so that should be kept in mind.
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      09-06-2009, 05:32 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cstavaru View Post
This is not the problem. The problem is that they INCREASE boost instead of fading it when heatsoak occurs. This is a problem for the long-term reliability of the engine.
Check my boost logs. I have been keeping an eye on my boost gauge and boost after 6000 tapers very quickly down to 11 and 10 psi.
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      09-06-2009, 05:40 PM   #49
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is anyone familiar with the affect of Techron??

look guys,

if you read the bottom of the dyno chart .... i specifically state that these runs were done with Techron additive added to the fuel ... yes the car is pulling timing hard.. not because of IC heat soak.. if you note the third run showed the highest numbers so if the IC was heat soaked -- the DME would have pulled timing earlier, and much more signifcantly.

also the boost per run is realitively the same, showing no sign of sloppy boost control, only the DME reacting to the knock event activity in the engine.

If there are any guys out there who have run techron on a consistent basis as i have, will know that once this very low volatility solvent is out the system car runs very well. the knock events are more pronounced by the solvents ability to wash the cylinder walls(hence not burning completely) and thats why it so effective in cleaning up carboned up engines.

the dyno results are no tune related -- but rather driver induced (me)
I was going to change the oil, found i had some free time this weekend .. scheduled a dyno -- picked up my son .. and forgot about it till i jumped on freeway to go to MD.. and felt her pull back on me..

now will that account for another 20-30whp -- i doubt it .. but it will pick up a bit .. and the graphs will be a hell of a lot smoother.. and hopefully it will not be 100 degrees when i go back.

i'll post the STD numbers shortly

Cheers
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      09-06-2009, 06:04 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OctoberfestE92 View Post
look guys,

if you read the bottom of the dyno chart .... i specifically state that these runs were done with Techron additive added to the fuel ... yes the car is pulling timing hard.. not because of IC heat soak.. if you note the third run showed the highest numbers so if the IC was heat soaked -- the DME would have pulled timing earlier, and much more signifcantly.

also the boost per run is realitively the same, showing no sign of sloppy boost control, only the DME reacting to the knock event activity in the engine.

If there are any guys out there who have run techron on a consistent basis as i have, will know that once this very low volatility solvent is out the system car runs very well. the knock events are more pronounced by the solvents ability to wash the cylinder walls(hence not burning completely) and thats why it so effective in cleaning up carboned up engines.

the dyno results are no tune related -- but rather driver induced (me)
I was going to change the oil, found i had some free time this weekend .. scheduled a dyno -- picked up my son .. and forgot about it till i jumped on freeway to go to MD.. and felt her pull back on me..

now will that account for another 20-30whp -- i doubt it .. but it will pick up a bit .. and the graphs will be a hell of a lot smoother.. and hopefully it will not be 100 degrees when i go back.

i'll post the STD numbers shortly

Cheers
I'd have to agree with you. Just looks like a fuel quality/knock issue from this side of the keyboard. Plus, it's hard to induce a heat soak condition at MD after just 3 runs. That fan is a monster (high velocity and high flow). Boost control looks ok as well.

Just use straight 91oct with any additives and let's see what she can do

Shiv
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      09-06-2009, 06:22 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cstavaru View Post
This is not the problem. The problem is that they INCREASE boost instead of fading it when heatsoak occurs. This is a problem for the long-term reliability of the engine.
This is not by GIAC's doing, this is what a STOCK car does... they simply left that mechanism in place. I have seen it myself.

This is basic n54 stuff... nothing to do with GIAC, the stock DME raises it to a point, to maintain maximum output. This is why a stock car on a really hot day will boost up to 10psi, and on a cool day, you will have a hard time breaking 8psi

It seems that the GIAC tune runs normally at around 13.5 psi, but in adverse conditions can boost up to 14.5 psi because of heat and altitude compensations.

I don't see anything wrong with doing this... bmw does it.... jb1, jb2, procede v1,v2 all did it...
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      09-06-2009, 06:35 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
I'd have to agree with you. Just looks like a fuel quality/knock issue from this side of the keyboard. Plus, it's hard to induce a heat soak condition at MD after just 3 runs. That fan is a monster (high velocity and high flow). Boost control looks ok as well.

Just use straight 91oct with any additives and let's see what she can do

Shiv
thanks for the feedback -- yea, she'll do better without any additives ....

and that fan is sick .. dropped the ambient by almost three degrees in a few minutes .. so go figure
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      09-06-2009, 06:41 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffc31337 View Post
Maybe I'm missing something but where is the data that shows they are raising boost targets as IAT's increase? THe logs I see earlier in this thread show a nice boost taper to redline with the actual boost right in line where it should be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by enrita View Post
Check my boost logs. I have been keeping an eye on my boost gauge and boost after 6000 tapers very quickly down to 11 and 10 psi.
Its not about boost taper, its about the overall boost targets, they will be higher on a hot day, to a point... ussually around 1psi higher between a cold day (40F) and a hot day (80-90F)

This is nothing new... stock 335's have been doing it since day one, lol.

Like I said, drive your car on a hot day and you will hear your turbos more and see higher peaks on your boost gauge than on a cold day. This is the car compensating for a less dense air charge. GIAC didn't invent this... the 335 stock tune does it. Its in the n54 documentation, and is easily observed using a boost gauge. I thought this was common knowledge??

You can even see this in effect on the dyno's in this thread... 3 back to back runs in 90F weather, and by the third run, peak boost is almost .5 psi higher, peaking out at 14.59 psi... which is much higher than the other giac dyno's we have seen, which ussually show mid 13's...

Last edited by RiXst3r; 09-06-2009 at 09:02 PM.
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      09-06-2009, 07:30 PM   #54
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std numbers for techron enhanced (j/k) dyno run

here are the STD corrected numbers and the enviroment information
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      09-06-2009, 07:45 PM   #55
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note --

if you look the last graph and compare the dip in torque (which the DME tries to recover) and the peak horsepower. that why it ONLY held peak for a moment.. but notice is still trying to adapt

by my third run it had adapted to the low octane situation and stabllized somewhat.. on top end the tune is running REAL fat -- trying to compensate for the fuel inability to burn.. just give it a little more ,,

but I'll make another run over to MD in the future.. before i make any changes so we can at least clear the air on my runs
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      09-06-2009, 09:31 PM   #56
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Alright guys,
Both Jason and I deleted and cleaned posts in this thread.
All Off Topic posts will be deleted. PERIOD.
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      09-07-2009, 12:36 AM   #57
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Thanks for keeping it clean Mr.5 , we got some good info now in the thread.
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      09-07-2009, 02:31 AM   #58
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Keep the accusations and off-topic posts off of this thread and other threads in this forum. Otherwise, do not complain if it gets deleted.

If you have any issues, contact me directly instead of airing it out on a thread and tanking the thread. Thanks.
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      09-07-2009, 04:27 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMR View Post
How are you catless cars getting rid of the CE light with the GIAC flash?
Ess has the possibility to enable the Ce light when your are catless, if Giac use the same technique they are probably able to do the same.
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      09-07-2009, 04:40 AM   #60
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Yes ESS can but they are based in EU/Norway. I have asked GIAC to remove my CE light as well since i am based in Sweden. I am expecting an answer from them about it. Depends on the laws.
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      09-10-2009, 01:23 PM   #61
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Hi Enrita,

I would be very happy to answer any of your questions. Just send me an e-mail.
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      09-10-2009, 01:24 PM   #62
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Hi Octoberfest92

As Enrita mentioned, our stage 1 program is designed for stock hardware, but can be safely run with many different exhaust and charge cooling options. The boost fluctuations are partially due to OEM safeties that we leave in tact. Just like the stock program, our performance calibration is designed to achieve specific torque values. To do this we have to calibrate a host of limits, factors, and targets with in the DME. We chose these settings based on duty cycles, temperatures and other factors we saw on test cars in real world conditions. There are layers of safety in the program, the torque targets are just the first one.

Some cars will reach these power levels and higher boost levels more easily than others due to hardware and/or octane differences. With higher octane you will make the torque targets more easily, which will result in more corrections from the DME. Running on a no load dyno also allows for the car to overboost more easily. The "knock" theory/guess is the least likely reason for the boost fluctuations. The DME receives completely unfiltered feedback on all knock activity, actual timing, boost and an assortment of temperature values, and is fully able to react to all of these variable. If knock activity is high due to ambient temps or poor octane, then timing will go down. In some cases the DME will even try to compensate by shifting power control from timing to boost.

Stage one is not the most aggressive file that we have run and there are a few stages designed for cars that will make boost more easily at lower temperatures that will be released soon.
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      09-10-2009, 01:57 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew@GIAC View Post
Hi Octoberfest92

As Enrita mentioned, our stage 1 program is designed for stock hardware, but can be safely run with many different exhaust and charge cooling options. The boost fluctuations are partially due to OEM safeties that we leave in tact. Just like the stock program, our performance calibration is designed to achieve specific torque values. To do this we have to calibrate a host of limits, factors, and targets with in the DME. We chose these settings based on duty cycles, temperatures and other factors we saw on test cars in real world conditions. There are layers of safety in the program, the torque targets are just the first one.

Some cars will reach these power levels and higher boost levels more easily than others due to hardware and/or octane differences. With higher octane you will make the torque targets more easily, which will result in more corrections from the DME. Running on a no load dyno also allows for the car to overboost more easily. The "knock" theory/guess is the least likely reason for the boost fluctuations. The DME receives completely unfiltered feedback on all knock activity, actual timing, boost and an assortment of temperature values, and is fully able to react to all of these variable. If knock activity is high due to ambient temps or poor octane, then timing will go down. In some cases the DME will even try to compensate by shifting power control from timing to boost.

Stage one is not the most aggressive file that we have run and there are a few stages designed for cars that will make boost more easily at lower temperatures that will be released soon.
How soon are we talking about....weeks...months?
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      09-10-2009, 02:39 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew@GIAC View Post
Hi Octoberfest92

As Enrita mentioned, our stage 1 program is designed for stock hardware, but can be safely run with many different exhaust and charge cooling options. The boost fluctuations are partially due to OEM safeties that we leave in tact. Just like the stock program, our performance calibration is designed to achieve specific torque values. To do this we have to calibrate a host of limits, factors, and targets with in the DME. We chose these settings based on duty cycles, temperatures and other factors we saw on test cars in real world conditions. There are layers of safety in the program, the torque targets are just the first one.

Some cars will reach these power levels and higher boost levels more easily than others due to hardware and/or octane differences. With higher octane you will make the torque targets more easily, which will result in more corrections from the DME. Running on a no load dyno also allows for the car to overboost more easily. The "knock" theory/guess is the least likely reason for the boost fluctuations. The DME receives completely unfiltered feedback on all knock activity, actual timing, boost and an assortment of temperature values, and is fully able to react to all of these variable. If knock activity is high due to ambient temps or poor octane, then timing will go down. In some cases the DME will even try to compensate by shifting power control from timing to boost.

Stage one is not the most aggressive file that we have run and there are a few stages designed for cars that will make boost more easily at lower temperatures that will be released soon.
I am also curious about the time line for this and about the anticipated release of the handheld flash loader unit and whether these various stages will be selectable like the maps on the JB3 or Procede.
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      09-11-2009, 01:46 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew@GIAC View Post
Hi Octoberfest92

As Enrita mentioned, our stage 1 program is designed for stock hardware, but can be safely run with many different exhaust and charge cooling options. The boost fluctuations are partially due to OEM safeties that we leave in tact. Just like the stock program, our performance calibration is designed to achieve specific torque values. To do this we have to calibrate a host of limits, factors, and targets with in the DME. We chose these settings based on duty cycles, temperatures and other factors we saw on test cars in real world conditions. There are layers of safety in the program, the torque targets are just the first one.

Some cars will reach these power levels and higher boost levels more easily than others due to hardware and/or octane differences. With higher octane you will make the torque targets more easily, which will result in more corrections from the DME. Running on a no load dyno also allows for the car to overboost more easily. The "knock" theory/guess is the least likely reason for the boost fluctuations. The DME receives completely unfiltered feedback on all knock activity, actual timing, boost and an assortment of temperature values, and is fully able to react to all of these variable. If knock activity is high due to ambient temps or poor octane, then timing will go down. In some cases the DME will even try to compensate by shifting power control from timing to boost.

Stage one is not the most aggressive file that we have run and there are a few stages designed for cars that will make boost more easily at lower temperatures that will be released soon.
if im not mistaken October was not relating the boost fluctuation to the knock --

looks like he said the knock activity was related to the degraded fuel ..
some one else said something about the boost control ..
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      09-11-2009, 01:51 PM   #66
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I am also curious about the time line for this and about the anticipated release of the handheld flash loader unit and whether these various stages will be selectable like the maps on the JB3 or Procede.
why would you select a different stage with the loader? if you are fully modded than you should run stage 2 plus, if you are stock just Stage 1.
I guess with the loader you will be able to select stock map, 1 stage, race gas map and a valet map .
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