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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > AMS FMIC Installed: +23 whp peak, +43 whp @ 6700!



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      09-07-2009, 12:00 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A418t81 View Post
There is no mistake, and I know for certain what map I was on. Also, if you look at the dyno graph, you can see that the power curves are nearly identical in their shape, other than the fact that the aftermarket IC starts to slowly deviate away from the stock IC run starting at around 4k, continuing to slowly pull away throughout the run. That's pretty obvious that IATs are playing a big factor in allowing the car to run maximum boost on the dyno. The biggest delta is near redline where the stock IC is out of heatsink capacity while the AMS unit still has quite a reserve (not accounting for the flow increases, etc of an aftermarket unit as well).

There was no dyno funny business. The pre and post IC dyno runs were the FIRST runs done at each dyno session and the highest power production of each. With the upgraded unit, there was a run where I nearly made 400 wtq, but hp was down 3-4 from the run above.
The data present is definitely impressive. My only question would be how are you making more boost down low? The only way of that I can think is having a smaller IC with less volume to pressurize meaning less pressure drop accross the IC.

Is the BMW unit really that detrimental to flow? I"m coming from the VW/Audi world and looking to pick up an x35 in 2010. The stock audi/vw intercoolers are usually quite good and only see ~15-20hp gains on race gas maps and sometimes with extra lag due to more volume.
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      09-07-2009, 12:43 PM   #24
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The differences in torque down low are mostly due to the fact that the runs were not started at the same rpm. If you start lower in the rpm band, more load on the powertrain is generated for a longer period of time which allows the turbos to spool up a touch more quickly and give the illusion of more low end.
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      09-07-2009, 12:47 PM   #25
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I was there as well. The results are a fact. What were you naysayers expecting? 5whp gains?
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      09-07-2009, 02:06 PM   #26
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      09-07-2009, 03:27 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by easy2speed View Post
I was there as well. The results are a fact. What were you naysayers expecting? 5whp gains?
No one is saying this guy is a lying sack of crap, far from it.
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      09-07-2009, 09:59 PM   #28
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AWESOME! Super stoked that it's working well for you and really glad we could help! Thank you for the post

Eric
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      09-07-2009, 09:59 PM   #29
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Great gains man. I'm curious to see/feel the butt dyno in your car now. But I know if I do, Ill be itching to buy dp's and a IC.
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      09-08-2009, 05:48 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A418t81 View Post
There is no mistake, and I know for certain what map I was on. Also, if you look at the dyno graph, you can see that the power curves are nearly identical in their shape, other than the fact that the aftermarket IC starts to slowly deviate away from the stock IC run starting at around 4k, continuing to slowly pull away throughout the run. That's pretty obvious that IATs are playing a big factor in allowing the car to run maximum boost on the dyno. The biggest delta is near redline where the stock IC is out of heatsink capacity while the AMS unit still has quite a reserve (not accounting for the flow increases, etc of an aftermarket unit as well).

There was no dyno funny business. The pre and post IC dyno runs were the FIRST runs done at each dyno session and the highest power production of each. With the upgraded unit, there was a run where I nearly made 400 wtq, but hp was down 3-4 from the run above.
By chance did you log IATs? The only reason I ask is we all know intercoolers do not make power, they stop us from losing power.

Last edited by Former_Boosted_IS; 09-08-2009 at 07:06 AM.
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      09-08-2009, 09:20 AM   #31
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By chance did you log IATs? The only reason I ask is we all know intercoolers do not make power, they stop us from losing power.
Technically you can say it from both sides.

We picked up 11whp on a back to back test on a car with a stock ECU. Intercoolers can pick up power from bolting them on. Lowering IAT's creates denser air. Denser air means more power. Couple that with less pressure drop and you have even more air making its way to the engine.

More air plus cooler air will make more power.

ERic
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      09-08-2009, 09:36 AM   #32
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Sorry if this sounds like a negative comment , but i really dont believe that just a FMIC could result in such gains. There must be a mistake on the dyno-run or you compared results using different maps. This is a really big difference.
Ah I see the problem.....

The dyno graph shows the runs out of order. Run 1 (Blue square), run 3 (Red Square) , run 2 (Green Sqaure) in that order. That is what is throwing us off.

The AMS FMIC is making 23HP and 10TQ over the stock FMIC. We are getting confused because of the out of sequence graph results compared to the RUN sequence above it.
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      09-08-2009, 09:42 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric@AMS View Post
Technically you can say it from both sides.

We picked up 11whp on a back to back test on a car with a stock ECU. Intercoolers can pick up power from bolting them on. Lowering IAT's creates denser air. Denser air means more power. Couple that with less pressure drop and you have even more air making its way to the engine.

More air plus cooler air will make more power.

ERic
Eric, come on. If you are taking the pressure loss into the equation then there is a problem. I agree it allows more boost with the same compressor RPMs, but we are talking strictly about power from the intercooler.

Cooler IATs are obviously the reason to use upgraded intercoolers, but I know you will agree that on a cool car that the power will not be the numbers posted in this thread on the first run.
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      09-08-2009, 10:13 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric@AMS View Post
We picked up 11whp on a back to back test on a car with a stock ECU. Intercoolers can pick up power from bolting them on. Lowering IAT's creates denser air. Denser air means more power. Couple that with less pressure drop and you have even more air making its way to the engine.

More air plus cooler air will make more power.
+1
This is basic physics. The delta is the sum of these factors. In his case the tune adds a third factor by adding boost. The results are spot on if you calculate the effects of the pressure loss, IATs and boost.
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      09-08-2009, 10:52 AM   #35
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Nice gains.
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      09-08-2009, 11:02 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Former_Boosted_IS View Post
Eric, come on. If you are taking the pressure loss into the equation then there is a problem. I agree it allows more boost with the same compressor RPMs, but we are talking strictly about power from the intercooler.

Cooler IATs are obviously the reason to use upgraded intercoolers, but I know you will agree that on a cool car that the power will not be the numbers posted in this thread on the first run.
I cannot agree to anything yet as I had not directly dealt with this car on the dyno. I did not monitor boost or any other HP contributing factors.

I am merely saying that this intercooler DOES add hp. It has on ever car so far we have seen tested. I don't think this can really be argued. What do we possibly have to gain by telling you it does and lying to you. All we would be doing is tarnishing our reputation.

So far we have no tested a back to back on a car being tuned. We are working out some fueling issues with my car and once we get that handled we will be doing one here where we can monitor IAT's and Pressure.

Also its not just cooling. Take a look at the cross section of the stock core. Velocity is certainly hindered with the factory tube and fin core. I am not blowing smoke here, we have done this several times before. Hell on an EVO with our IC on a stock car we have seen 10whp gains with no tuning or boost increase.

I think what you are trying to get at is that the HP gain is not from the intercooler but rather from the pressure/air temp. Regardless this is caused by putting the IC on so I think it's fair to say the IC adds HP

I think the fact that after bolting this on a car with stock boost it picked up 11whp is a testament that it makes power. Obviously on a car pushing more boost through the stock core the gains I would expect to be larger as you are putting more heat through it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jippii ensio View Post
+1
This is basic physics. The delta is the sum of these factors. In his case the tune adds a third factor by adding boost. The results are spot on if you calculate the effects of the pressure loss, IATs and boost.
Thank you, While I cannot say for certain this is a 100% accurate test as I was not there to conduct it I will say this is possible.

Eric
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      09-08-2009, 11:04 AM   #37
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eric, sent you a PM
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      09-08-2009, 01:53 PM   #38
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This will be my first of very few posts on this forum but i figure some of this info may help or not who knows..

The dyno room temps and humidity were actualy the same on both days
87-88 degrees but on the higher power runs the humidity was 37% vs 51%

here is the dyno graph from low boost these were both the 3rd runs of that day


here are the 1st and 2nd high boost passes of those days..
black and red lines are= stock intercooler
blue and green lines = AMS intercooler


and i am sure some are wondering who i am.. I am the operator of the dyno
Alabama Dyno Pros..

Enjoy

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      09-08-2009, 02:07 PM   #39
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I'd love to see some numbers from an on-road test in similar ambient conditions... even the best fans in a dyno room can't usually provide enough airflow for either a stock or aftermarket intercooler to really do its job (especially when you consider that an OEM-intercooled vehicle has its entire front-end aerodynamics involved in maximizing airflow through the cooling system). On a dyno I sort of suspect a big portion of the difference is in reduced pressure drop across the core, which will generally mean the ECU sees higher manifold pressure and drops boost at the turbo correspondingly, therefore putting the compressor into a more efficient range AND lower pressure ratio which means the air coming out of the turbo is already significantly cooler than it was with a stock IC.

I'm also curious, has anyone shown any demonstrable differences between brands of aftermarket intercoolers? Because aside from some pretty minor differences in endtank fabrication everything from ebay right on up to the most prestigious brands appear to use the same exact core.
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      09-08-2009, 02:23 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zerodb View Post
I'd love to see some numbers from an on-road test in similar ambient conditions... even the best fans in a dyno room can't usually provide enough airflow for either a stock or aftermarket intercooler to really do its job (especially when you consider that an OEM-intercooled vehicle has its entire front-end aerodynamics involved in maximizing airflow through the cooling system). .
I agree and can also tell you that the fans we used were sub-par low quality shop fans that provided very little air velocity across the front end of the car so it can be expected that the dyno numbers would more than likely go down after a few runs of getting things hot..

-Sam
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      09-08-2009, 02:23 PM   #41
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I assure you nobody is using our core. ebay core dimensions might be the same but core construction is WAY off. We have tested Ebay IC's comprable in size to what we make and the results are staggering. In many cases the STOCK core has outperformed the EBay unit.

Our cores are made in the good ol USA to our specifaction on not only construction but size.

Thanks for the post Sam! That looks right about what I was hoping for on a modified car

Eric
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      09-08-2009, 02:39 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric@AMS View Post
I cannot agree to anything yet as I had not directly dealt with this car on the dyno. I did not monitor boost or any other HP contributing factors.

I am merely saying that this intercooler DOES add hp. It has on ever car so far we have seen tested. I don't think this can really be argued. What do we possibly have to gain by telling you it does and lying to you. All we would be doing is tarnishing our reputation.

So far we have no tested a back to back on a car being tuned. We are working out some fueling issues with my car and once we get that handled we will be doing one here where we can monitor IAT's and Pressure.

Also its not just cooling. Take a look at the cross section of the stock core. Velocity is certainly hindered with the factory tube and fin core. I am not blowing smoke here, we have done this several times before. Hell on an EVO with our IC on a stock car we have seen 10whp gains with no tuning or boost increase.

I think what you are trying to get at is that the HP gain is not from the intercooler but rather from the pressure/air temp. Regardless this is caused by putting the IC on so I think it's fair to say the IC adds HP

I think the fact that after bolting this on a car with stock boost it picked up 11whp is a testament that it makes power. Obviously on a car pushing more boost through the stock core the gains I would expect to be larger as you are putting more heat through it.



Thank you, While I cannot say for certain this is a 100% accurate test as I was not there to conduct it I will say this is possible.

Eric
Eric, I am sure you would agree if the claim of 43 rwhp at peak wasn't listed that this would not be an issue. I think you would also agree that 43 rwhp from velocity and flow doesn't add up over the stock intercooler. With efficieny, flow, and P drop as the main variables, I am just trying to eliminate as many open variables as possible.
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      09-08-2009, 02:49 PM   #43
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Don't pay too much attention to the maximum difference. It is just the most extreme point for a split second and could be there by chance. It is evident though that the difference will more towards the end of the runs along with the increasing IATs as you can see in the graph.
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      09-08-2009, 02:51 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Former_Boosted_IS View Post
Eric, I am sure you would agree if the claim of 43 rwhp at peak wasn't listed that this would not be an issue. I think you would also agree that 43 rwhp from velocity and flow doesn't add up over the stock intercooler. With efficieny, flow, and P drop as the main variables, I am just trying to eliminate as many open variables as possible.
Ok take a look at the graph the gentleman from Alabama just posted....look at redline. That is showing a near 45 whp gain at redline comparing two cold passes. Even when cold the stock IC heat soaks so bad near redline on a cold pull that the AMS one just walks away with it. I am not really sure what you are trying to get at but you are missing a few key things. The stock core was designed to run 8 psi of boost and was constructed as thus. We are now throwing 14-16 psi at that nearly DOUBLING the input to that core and doing god knows what in way of heat. Seeing a gain like this is not that hard to believe.

You are adding a MUCH more efficient and higher volume core, Increasing the entry and exit ports of the end tanks substantially to 3". completely reworking the end tanks to optimize airflow. Adding in special tapered couplers to aid in flow and velocity. To top if all off you are switching from tube and fin to bar and plate on core construction. It's all right in front of you.

Again, please don;t take this the wrong way but this is not the first intercooler we have made. We have been doing this for a very long time so we know what works. Based on the vastly inferior stock core we are working with on this car these gains are not that out of line.

Again not quite sure what you are digging at but I have answered all of your questions as to where the power is coming from.

Eric
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