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      06-04-2009, 06:23 AM   #1
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Speakers upgrade - a matter of taste

Hi,

After almost a week of scrolling thru the topics I am still not able to follow a certain path...
I wouldn't opt for the Alpine upgrade nor for the Blaupunkt one...I feel more for a stock speakers upgrade but here it comes: which ones?
I have an E90 with standard 6 speakers and Business Navigation (professional radio)...so far I saw people using Hifonics (HFI42) en Infinity (4012i) but not so many with Audio System (AUDIO SYSTEM CO 100 BMW or XION 200). Please help me make a choice!
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      06-04-2009, 06:40 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nmf69 View Post
Hi,

After almost a week of scrolling thru the topics I am still not able to follow a certain path...
I wouldn't opt for the Alpine upgrade nor for the Blaupunkt one...I feel more for a stock speakers upgrade but here it comes: which ones?
I have an E90 with standard 6 speakers and Business Navigation (professional radio)...so far I saw people using Hifonics (HFI42) en Infinity (4012i) but not so many with Audio System (AUDIO SYSTEM CO 100 BMW or XION 200). Please help me make a choice!
Did you see this? http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=170691

Most probably you will have better responses in the local sections in this forum, as the speakers that you are asking for are not that popular in the USA as OEM replacements.
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      06-04-2009, 07:07 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Technic View Post
Thanks, exactly what I was looking for!
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      06-04-2009, 07:14 AM   #4
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A bit off topic: what is the power output of the Professional radio?
Thanks
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      06-04-2009, 07:25 AM   #5
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Hi,

I have the X-ion 200 set in my e91, fed by a Hertz 4-channel amp. The subs are powered seperately (I think, it's installed by a car audio dealer).

Very nice upgrade, for a relative low price. Will cost you approx. the same as the factory hifi system (option# 676) and will sound much better (more close to the Logic 7).

You will need an amplifier to use the full potential of the speakers!

Your Business navigation has more power than the standard Professional radio. BMW won't confirm that, but it is true. The sound of a 3 Series equiped with Idrive is better (less bad...) than one without Idrive.
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      06-04-2009, 08:01 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LW View Post
Hi,

I have the X-ion 200 set in my e91, fed by a Hertz 4-channel amp. The subs are powered seperately (I think, it's installed by a car audio dealer).

Very nice upgrade, for a relative low price. Will cost you approx. the same as the factory hifi system (option# 676) and will sound much better (more close to the Logic 7).

You will need an amplifier to use the full potential of the speakers!

Your Business navigation has more power than the standard Professional radio. BMW won't confirm that, but it is true. The sound of a 3 Series equiped with Idrive is better (less bad...) than one without Idrive.
BMW did publish those power outputs in their "Audio systems: E87, E90, E91, E92" OEM documentation:

Quote:
Stereo System:

4 channels
6 loudspeakers
2 mid-range loudspeakers, front 100 mm
2 mid-range loudspeakers, rear, 100 mm
2 bass loudspeakers, 160 mm
Bandwidth: 50 Hz to 14,000 Hz
Max. acoustic pressure 98 dB
Amplifier power: depends on radio,
radio: 4 x 15 W (4 Ω)
M-ASK: 4 x 40 W (2 Ω) Business Navigation
CCC: 4 x 25 W (2 Ω) Professional Navigation


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      06-05-2009, 03:30 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Technic View Post
BMW did publish those power outputs in their "Audio systems: E87, E90, E91, E92" OEM documentation:





Good info, thanks! I wasn't aware of this!
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      06-05-2009, 06:59 AM   #8
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I've made up my mind: I will only upgrade the midrange speaker and, in addition, I will add a tweeter:
Midrange HIFI part:65139143147
Tweeter HIFI part:6513694012
To be honest i'am still anxious about dismantling the doors, keep fingers cross for me, please
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      06-05-2009, 07:59 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nmf69 View Post
I've made up my mind: I will only upgrade the midrange speaker and, in addition, I will add a tweeter:
Midrange HIFI part:65139143147
Tweeter HIFI part:6513694012
To be honest i'am still anxious about dismantling the doors, keep fingers cross for me, please
This will provide with a much better sound! The staging will be better, due to the tweeters, but I would seriously recommend an amp!

If your upgrade is limited to cost, skip the midrange and only buy the tweeters (don't forget to buy the speaker covers) + a Blaupunkt 2 channel PNP amp. This is also an easy install and will fit behind the glove compartment (plenty of DIY available too).
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      06-05-2009, 08:09 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LW View Post
This will provide with a much better sound! The staging will be better, due to the tweeters, but I would seriously recommend an amp!

If your upgrade is limited to cost, skip the midrange and only buy the tweeters (don't forget to buy the speaker covers) + a Blaupunkt 2 channel PNP amp. This is also an easy install and will fit behind the glove compartment (plenty of DIY available too).
Thanks, do you know a good address for purchasing the Blaupunkt 2 channel in The Netherlands?
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      06-05-2009, 08:12 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nmf69 View Post
I've made up my mind: I will only upgrade the midrange speaker and, in addition, I will add a tweeter:
Midrange HIFI part:65139143147
Tweeter HIFI part:6513694012
To be honest i'am still anxious about dismantling the doors, keep fingers cross for me, please
Adding those HiFi speakers -which are 2 ohms in impedance together- will make your front soundstage be 1.33 ohms in total impedance once you connect them in parallel to the underseat OEM woofers (4 ohms). That will exceed the stable rating of your Business Navigation of 2 ohms.

You could damage your Navigation computer doing so.

You either have to get the OEM Alpine upgrade (which in fact includes the better Top-HiFi mids and tweeters so you do not have to get those HiFi speakers) or the Blaupunkt THA555 amp if you want to keep this upgrade simple and plug 'n play with those particular speakers. Otherwise you will need to get the OEM Individual Audio front component set (tweeter, mid, crossover and connecting harness, 4 ohms total impedance) instead, as then you will keep your Nav computer internal amp output at 2 ohms impedance. You will need to check if the OEM conectors in your doors are compatible with these Individual Audio OEM mids (they should be), look for a place inside that door panel to install the OEM crossover and definitely get the OEM door trim to install the OEM tweeter.

You could get an aftermarket component set as long as they are 4 ohms if you do not want to add an aftermarket amp.

If you are set in getting those particular HiFi OEM speakers there could be a way of making this work without damaging your Nav internal amp, but it will require some homework first:

- check the impedance of your existing rear OEM full range speaker. Although the part number is different from the front OEM full range speaker, that doesn't imply that their impedance will have to be different.

You can do that with a multimeter like this:




- if the measured impedance of each rear speaker is around 4 ohms then what you could do is to custom wire the underseat OEM woofers to the rear speakers in parallel. In other words, you need to unplug each OEM woofer and run new cables to the input wires of each rear speaker respectively (left woofer to left rear speaker and so on). That will give you a 2 ohms impedance from the point of view of the Nav computer internal amp at the rear speakers, which will keep it in the stable range without any overheating/damaging issues.

Then install the front 2 ohms HiFi speakers. You will still need to install the new tweeter OEM trim in your front doors, though. That will keep the front at 2 ohms impedance, so the Nav computer internal amp will not any issues driving this new set.

- if the measured impedance of each rear speaker considerably less than 4 ohms then you cannot get these HiFi speakers. You are back to the original issue above.

FYI: if you still can get a Blaupunkt PnP harness -not the THA amp itself- for your E90 you can add any nice aftermarket 4-5 channel amp to your system without too much effort and achieve a much better sound improvement while keeping your OEM speakers than just replacing the fronts only without increasing the power output, IMO.

I think that those harnesses have been discontinued, though.
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      06-05-2009, 08:41 AM   #12
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Wow!
Unfortunately, I have already ordered and payed for the HIFI speakers!
I am not very good in this kind of calculations and therefore I based my decision on a few cases found all over the forum...
Still, is it possible to go on with the plan and in addition to order also the 2 Ohm subwoofer from the HIFI line?
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      06-05-2009, 08:52 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nmf69 View Post
Wow!
Unfortunately, I have already ordered and payed for the HIFI speakers!
I am not very good in this kind of calculations and therefore I based my decision on a few cases found all over the forum...
Still, is it possible to go on with the plan and in addition to order also the 2 Ohm subwoofer from the HIFI line?
You cannot get any 2 ohms speakers with your current system configuration.

You either have to get an amp and separate the underseat woofers from the front speakers or try the custom wiring job of the woofers with the rear OEM speakers.
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      06-05-2009, 09:36 AM   #14
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"Otherwise you will need to get the OEM Individual Audio front component set (tweeter, mid, crossover and connecting harness, 4 ohms total impedance) instead, as then you will keep your Nav computer internal amp output at 2 ohms impedance. You will need to check if the OEM conectors in your doors are compatible with these Individual Audio OEM mids (they should be), look for a place inside that door panel to install the OEM crossover and definitely get the OEM door trim to install the OEM tweeter."

Thanks for the response, i tried to cancel the order without success
I looked up for the OEM individual part numbers but I only could find the one for the tweeter (65136964013) and the one for the midrange (65139142512) so no connecting harness part number nor crossover ...so this time I didn't order them, I will first get the other order next week and try to change the HIFI speakers (plus money) for the Individual ones!
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      06-05-2009, 10:17 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nmf69 View Post
"Otherwise you will need to get the OEM Individual Audio front component set (tweeter, mid, crossover and connecting harness, 4 ohms total impedance) instead, as then you will keep your Nav computer internal amp output at 2 ohms impedance. You will need to check if the OEM conectors in your doors are compatible with these Individual Audio OEM mids (they should be), look for a place inside that door panel to install the OEM crossover and definitely get the OEM door trim to install the OEM tweeter."

Thanks for the response, i tried to cancel the order without success
I looked up for the OEM individual part numbers but I only could find the one for the tweeter (65136964013) and the one for the midrange (65139142512) so no connecting harness part number nor crossover ...so this time I didn't order them, I will first get the other order next week and try to change the HIFI speakers (plus money) for the Individual ones!
Individual Audio set

Mid: 65137838905
Tweeter: 65137839500
Crossover: 65137838929
Harness (from the mid to the crossover): 65137840987



The tweeter wiring (with connector) possibly will need to be extended in length to be plugged into the crossover, all depends on how far you install the crossover in the door panel from the tweeter wiring.

Trim to install tweeter

Pods: 51337171201 (left) and 51337171202 (right)
Insulation: 51337120659 (left) and 51337120660 (right)





You could use those HiFi mids/tweeters ordered as the replacement of the rear OEM full range speakers. Also, you could replace the underseat 6.5" woofers with either the Audio-System (4 ohms) or the SWS-8 (4 ohms) 8" woofers without the need of an aftermarket amp.

That should give you a better definition and bass to your stock system and set yourself up for an eventual 4-channel amp to really get your system to rock.
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      06-05-2009, 11:56 AM   #16
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[quote=Technic;5269897
You could use those HiFi mids/tweeters ordered as the replacement of the rear OEM full range speakers. [/QUOTE]

Thanks a lot for your help! I wonder if using the drivers as suggested above wouldn't get me in the same situation (1,3 Ohm) - as the drivers in the rear have 4 Ohm and the HIFI seems to have 2 Ohm...how do you calculate all this? I am in for a lesson
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      06-05-2009, 01:05 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nmf69 View Post
Thanks a lot for your help! I wonder if using the drivers as suggested above wouldn't get me in the same situation (1,3 Ohm) - as the drivers in the rear have 4 Ohm and the HIFI seems to have 2 Ohm...how do you calculate all this? I am in for a lesson
See the attached document.

We don't know for a fact the actual impedance in the OEM rears in your system, that's the reason I recommended measuring it. It could be either 4 or 2 ohms.

What we know for a fact is the minimum total impedance of the front OEM speakers in your system -2 ohms- just because that's the minimum impedance that your Nav computer can handle (40W at 2 ohms per channel). The front speakers in your system are connected in parallel with the underseat woofers, so for a total of 2 ohms two speakers in parallel should commonly have 4 ohms each in impedance.

So the minimum impedance of the rear speakers by themselves should be 2 ohms each by the same explanation above (they are not connected in parallel to any other speakers), which is also the impedance of your HiFi speakers as they are driven by an external OEM amp with a power output of 25W at 2 ohms.

You will be fine running those HiFi in the rear and the Individual Audio in the front with your base Stereo system, however sooner or later you will feel the need of more power.
Attached Images
File Type: pdf E90-87 Sound System.pdf (191.5 KB, 740 views)
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      06-06-2009, 02:13 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Technic View Post
The front speakers in your system are connected in parallel with the underseat woofers, so for a total of 2 ohms two speakers in parallel should commonly have 4 ohms each in impedance.
I get it, thanks...but making an analogy: shouldn't be the same in a midrange+tweeter combination? They are also connected in parallel, don't they? Especially if they don't have a crossover, like in the HIFI scenario (4x25W at 2 ohm) which is 2 speakers in each door (midrange plus tweeter) connected in parallel....so logicwise they should have 4 ohm each.
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      06-06-2009, 06:59 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nmf69 View Post
I get it, thanks...but making an analogy: shouldn't be the same in a midrange+tweeter combination? They are also connected in parallel, don't they? Especially if they don't have a crossover, like in the HIFI scenario (4x25W at 2 ohm) which is 2 speakers in each door (midrange plus tweeter) connected in parallel....so logicwise they should have 4 ohm each.
The HiFi speakers have a capacitor that acts as a filter in the tweeters. Your existing Stereo system does not have any capacitor between the front full range speaker and the woofer, as your Nav computer can handle 2 ohms of load by channel.

Therefore it can be assumed that the HiFi tweeter and the mid are 4 ohms each, however what you want to do with the HiFi speakers that you ordered is to install them at the front doors of your E90. And we already established that the existing front speakers in your particular system are already connected in parallel to the underseat woofers.

Therefore you will end up with three speakers on each front door connected in parallel one to the other to the other... that's 4 ohms (tweeter) in parallel to 4 ohms (mid) in parallel to 4 ohms (woofer). That's 1.33 ohms total impedance.

The Individual Audio components are 4 ohms together thru their separate crossover, so if you connect them to your front doors then you will have just 4 ohms (component) connected in parallel to 4 ohms (woofer). That's 2 ohms total impedance.

That's the difference.
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      06-06-2009, 08:15 AM   #20
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It is worth remembering that impedance of a driver is related to frequency.

The capacitor progressively raises the tweeters' impedance below it's crossover point. The mid impedance will rise progressively above the point at which it starts to roll off naturally.

The woofer underseat is more of an issue. Technic identifies the parallel nature of the problem. I am surprised that BMW runs these in parallel and I am also surprised that there is no capacitor on the mid, progressively raising its impedance below its effective range.

An inductor in series with the underseat woofer would progressively raise its impedance above the crossover point - but experience tells me that the output of your HU will not like a series inductor, and not play the woofer loud enough afterwards.

Listen to Technic telling you to buy an amp
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      06-06-2009, 09:52 AM   #21
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Thanks for the additional explanation of impedance/frequency relationship...

The basic Stereo system in BMW outside the USA is a extremely cheap system, speaker-wise IMO. I think that what BMW did here was trade quality for quantity, as they can say that their standard system has 6 speakers just to make it sound -pun intended- like it is something better than a Kraco 4-speaker system.

At least with the Business Navigation somehow BMW invested some money in a better IC amp with 40W at 2 ohms, while saving money in removing the cap in the front full range.

So if there are complaints in the USA that the standard HiFi system sounds like crap, I can't imagine how a Stereo system could have been received here if offered...
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      06-06-2009, 09:35 PM   #22
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The E60 uses deck power to the 4 doors, high-passed in the deck, and a 2-channel amp driving the underseat woofers. I'm surprised BMW doesn't use that as the base system architecture.
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