E90Post
 


N54Tuning.com
 
BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > VK downpipes whats the deal?



Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      09-10-2009, 12:34 PM   #23
tkillips
Casual Modder
4
Rep
55
Posts

 
Drives: '08 E92 BMW 335i
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bay Area (Home) / USC (School)

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vince@ V K Motorwerks View Post
Im sure there will be plenty of reviews very soon !
How soon are you thinkin? Looking to pick up some DPs myself and I'm curious how this product will play out
Appreciate 0
      09-10-2009, 12:35 PM   #24
Kroy
Brigadier General
Kroy's Avatar
United_States
39
Rep
3,035
Posts

 
Drives: E90
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Los Angeles, CA

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vince@ V K Motorwerks View Post
Im not offended. Just dont want people speculating thing. I am not the type to talk crap about another vendor. Im sure AR makes a good product as does other vendors.

The discussion of Chinese made vs American made to me personally is irrelavent. Quaility is not a factor of orgin but of the person/company doing the work. Just because something is made in America does not mean it will be of the best quaility. I have seen many products made in the US that have poor quaility. I am all for supporting the US economy, however, you cannot ignore the concept of globalization.

Even BMW has parts being manufactured in China, india,...ect.

We inspect all our products throughly and ensure that quality is at the highest standard. Im sure everyone will be surprised at the quaility and fitment. It took us so long because we continued to test the downpipes.
I can't vouch for the quality, but I agree with that statement 100%. Who cares where it's made, as long as it's good quality. I think the bottom line should be the only thing that matters. Look forward to seeing some of those VK reviews.
Appreciate 0
      09-10-2009, 01:13 PM   #25
ar design
ar design's Avatar
United_States
89
Rep
4,411
Posts

 
Drives: 04 M3
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Denver, CO

iTrader: (9)

Send a message via AIM to ar design
Quote:
Originally Posted by cu_north View Post
Regardless of how large a DP is or where its made I think we can all agree the profit margins on a piece of pipe are through the roof.
LOL, you're not even close

There are 8 hours of labor that go into each set alone. Flanges are CNC cut from raw 304 stainless. Each section/bend of downpipe is fitted by hand. We dont bang these out for $50 in 20 minutes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vince@ V K Motorwerks View Post
Thats what they are. 5" of combined diameter is more than enough for these little snails.
Two 2.5" tubes do not equal the flow of a single 5" tube. I am not sure if that is what you were implying, but not very clear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vince@ V K Motorwerks View Post
Our orginal set was a 3inch tapering to a 2.5 right before the flange. We also tested the 2.5 inch the way we have it now. We did not see any gains with one over the other. The bottom line is that ALL the current downpipes are going to be 2.5inches at the flange. Please wait to have them first before you start saying that these are not high quality.
I'd love to see your test data on this - as well as the prototype pics you promised us long ago to prove you didn't rip off Ultimate Racings design.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by AutoCouture View Post
there probably a reason for that
There is. A lot of the welds I have seen recently look non-backpurged, cold, and have been ground down, which greatly weakens them. I feel the quality of our materials is top shelf, and the workmanship speaks for itself.

In the end, you always get what you pay for.
Appreciate 0
      09-10-2009, 01:18 PM   #26
orionredwing
Captain
35
Rep
725
Posts

 
Drives: 335i Sedan, 135i Coupe
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: San Jose

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2007 335i  [5.00]
Manufacturing in China can be just as good as anywhere else in the world. Because of the large variance in skilled labor, and process controls between manufacturers, you can find very good and very poorly made products.

Back in the 80s and 90s, there was a big knowledge gap, and China did not have the modern process controls that they have today.

In the end, it's up to each vendor to qualify their source and perform proper QC. If that's done, the argument of China vs Made in the U.S.A. is irrelevant.

I come from 10+ yrs of experience in Operations / Mfg Eng Mgmt, and the last few years have been spent transitioning products from Silicon Valley to low-cost regions.

(I personally bought AR's downpipes, but am getting into the VK FMIC group buy, so am not pro-specific vendor. I just want a quality product, which both vendors deliver.)
__________________

PROcede | AMS FMIC | AR Catless DPs | AR Oil Cooler | BMS DCI
Wavetrac LSD | KW V3 w/ Swift Springs | M3 Front Suspension
Appreciate 0
      09-10-2009, 02:52 PM   #27
Vince@ V K Motorwerks
Lieutenant Colonel
Vince@ V K Motorwerks's Avatar
51
Rep
1,739
Posts

 
Drives: 01 Black 911 Turbo, 09 X5
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Bloomingdale, IL

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ar design View Post
LOL, you're not even close

There are 8 hours of labor that go into each set alone. Flanges are CNC cut from raw 304 stainless. Each section/bend of downpipe is fitted by hand. We dont bang these out for $50 in 20 minutes.



Two 2.5" tubes do not equal the flow of a single 5" tube. I am not sure if that is what you were implying, but not very clear.



I'd love to see your test data on this - as well as the prototype pics you promised us long ago to prove you didn't rip off Ultimate Racings design.....



There is. A lot of the welds I have seen recently look non-backpurged, cold, and have been ground down, which greatly weakens them. I feel the quality of our materials is top shelf, and the workmanship speaks for itself.

In the end, you always get what you pay for.
1)Are you saying that the downpipes going from 3" inches then abruptly going to a 2.5" at the flange is better then 2.5" through out so much so that it would clearly deliver more power? If anything you going to generate more back pressure by increasing the amount of air volume before the bottleneck. Unless you are changing the exhaust and having a full 3” system from the turbo back your still going to have a 2.5” system.

2) So your telling me UR didn’t just take the stock downpipes and remove the cats? That’s what we did, you can literally put our downpipes on the stock ones and see for yourself. Besides why do you think that there is a need for me to justify anything to you? What benefit is there for me?

3) I love your last comment, So let me get this straight, the more you charge the better your product magically becomes? With your logic if I over price my product above everyone else’s it automatically better. So if you charge $800 I should charge $850 and you will say my downpipes are better?

Andrew, I don’t know why you constantly have to talk down every other vendor who is selling similar products as you so you can make yourself look better. Understand I don’t have anything against you or your company. I don’t ever come after your stuff or try to find flaws in your design and you don’t want me to either. Just keep to your shit and mind your business. Regardless what either one of us sell we are going to have our own markets.

Best regards.

-Vince
Appreciate 0
      09-10-2009, 03:03 PM   #28
brianhn1
Slow Mo
5
Rep
524
Posts

 
Drives: BMW
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: US

iTrader: (0)

Probably made in India right?
__________________
'15 M4 AW/SO, ED 7/1/14, US 8/4/14, PU 8/18/14
'13 X5 35i, '08 335i
Motorcycles: '12 R1200GS, '10 F800GS, '74 R90S, 09' Ducati Monster 696, '10 HD V-Rod

Appreciate 0
      09-10-2009, 03:09 PM   #29
cali_guy
Second Lieutenant
3
Rep
258
Posts

 
Drives: 09 335i Coupe 6M
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Socal

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vince@ V K Motorwerks View Post
Andrew, I donít know why you constantly have to talk down every other vendor who is selling similar products as you so you can make yourself look better. Understand I donít have anything against you or your company. I donít ever come after your stuff or try to find flaws in your design and you donít want me to either. Just keep to your shit and mind your business. Regardless what either one of us sell we are going to have our own markets.

Best regards.

-Vince
Appreciate 0
      09-10-2009, 03:20 PM   #30
Vince@ V K Motorwerks
Lieutenant Colonel
Vince@ V K Motorwerks's Avatar
51
Rep
1,739
Posts

 
Drives: 01 Black 911 Turbo, 09 X5
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Bloomingdale, IL

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by brianhn1 View Post
Probably made in India right?
Mmmmmuuahhhhaaaahahahahaha . No india seems to be more into casting and making dyes, tech support, and my favorite solicitation calls.

I get so disappointed when I pick up the phone, I always think its a distant relative or something.
Appreciate 0
      09-10-2009, 03:21 PM   #31
mmmotornutz
Lieutenant
4
Rep
479
Posts

 
Drives: Montego 335i
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: NorCal

iTrader: (0)

Wow vendor lashes sure are tolerated on this site
Appreciate 0
      09-10-2009, 03:23 PM   #32
Yachimoto
Search, My Friend!
United_States
0
Rep
74
Posts

 
Drives: E90 335i
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: TX

iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vince@ V K Motorwerks View Post
1)Are you saying that the downpipes going from 3" inches then abruptly going to a 2.5" at the flange is better then 2.5" through out so much so that it would clearly deliver more power? If anything you going to generate more back pressure by increasing the amount of air volume before the bottleneck. Unless you are changing the exhaust and having a full 3Ē system from the turbo back your still going to have a 2.5Ē system.

2) So your telling me UR didnít just take the stock downpipes and remove the cats? Thatís what we did, you can literally put our downpipes on the stock ones and see for yourself. Besides why do you think that there is a need for me to justify anything to you? What benefit is there for me?

3) I love your last comment, So let me get this straight, the more you charge the better your product magically becomes? With your logic if I over price my product above everyone elseís it automatically better. So if you charge $800 I should charge $850 and you will say my downpipes are better?

Andrew, I donít know why you constantly have to talk down every other vendor who is selling similar products as you so you can make yourself look better. Understand I donít have anything against you or your company. I donít ever come after your stuff or try to find flaws in your design and you donít want me to either. Just keep to your shit and mind your business. Regardless what either one of us sell we are going to have our own markets.

Best regards.

-Vince
Appreciate 0
      09-10-2009, 03:32 PM   #33
brianhn1
Slow Mo
5
Rep
524
Posts

 
Drives: BMW
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: US

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vince@ V K Motorwerks View Post
Mmmmmuuahhhhaaaahahahahaha . No india seems to be more into casting and making dyes, tech support, and my favorite solicitation calls.

I get so disappointed when I pick up the phone, I always think its a distant relative or something.
LOL I do have stuff made in India, and you're right casting is one of their pluses.
__________________
'15 M4 AW/SO, ED 7/1/14, US 8/4/14, PU 8/18/14
'13 X5 35i, '08 335i
Motorcycles: '12 R1200GS, '10 F800GS, '74 R90S, 09' Ducati Monster 696, '10 HD V-Rod

Appreciate 0
      09-10-2009, 03:50 PM   #34
ar design
ar design's Avatar
United_States
89
Rep
4,411
Posts

 
Drives: 04 M3
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Denver, CO

iTrader: (9)

Send a message via AIM to ar design
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vince@ V K Motorwerks View Post
1)Are you saying that the downpipes going from 3" inches then abruptly going to a 2.5" at the flange is better then 2.5" through out so much so that it would clearly deliver more power? If anything you going to generate more back pressure by increasing the amount of air volume before the bottleneck. Unless you are changing the exhaust and having a full 3Ē system from the turbo back your still going to have a 2.5Ē system.

2) So your telling me UR didnít just take the stock downpipes and remove the cats? Thatís what we did, you can literally put our downpipes on the stock ones and see for yourself. Besides why do you think that there is a need for me to justify anything to you? What benefit is there for me?

3) I love your last comment, So let me get this straight, the more you charge the better your product magically becomes? With your logic if I over price my product above everyone elseís it automatically better. So if you charge $800 I should charge $850 and you will say my downpipes are better?

Andrew, I donít know why you constantly have to talk down every other vendor who is selling similar products as you so you can make yourself look better. Understand I donít have anything against you or your company. I donít ever come after your stuff or try to find flaws in your design and you donít want me to either. Just keep to your shit and mind your business. Regardless what either one of us sell we are going to have our own markets.

Best regards.

-Vince
1. You made a statement. Just asking you to back it up, since you claim to have done testing, you should have data.

2. Again, you made a claim. Just asking you to back it up.

3. Quality materials always cost more. Quality labor always cost more. So you always get what you pay for.

Im not here to talk you down. I am asking you to provide data to back up your statements. Nothing more.
__________________
-Critter
Appreciate 0
      09-10-2009, 04:02 PM   #35
scheherazade
Major
17
Rep
1,467
Posts

 
Drives: 09 GTR (& 93' accord!)
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: DC metro area

iTrader: (8)

UR is a great example of pricing...



UR apparently thinks a down pipe should cost $150 per tube...
That's what a single pipe evo down pipe costs.

http://www.lancershop.com/customer/p...&cat=67&page=1

So they should be charging around $300 for a set of 335 down pipes...



...



WHOOPS!

http://www.335ishop.com/335i/Ultimat...e-E9-p-38.html

Looks like UR's retail is 2X what they charge *per-pipe* compared to the UR evo DP.
(Retail : $600 for 2, vs $150 for 1)
(MSRP : 3X, $900 for 2 vs $150 for 1)






BMW market is BMW market.
1) Not the sales volume of a honda/DSM
2) Plenty of buyers with more $ than brains
3) Plenty of buyers that equate quality with price.
So you just pay more for the same thing.

In the end, every business runs things their own way.
AR produces pipes by hand, in the U.S..
Like they said... they pay someone 8 hours of labor per pipe.

U.S. worker needs to pay U.S. bills and needs a U.S. salary, which necessitates a higher price.

8 Hours U.S. labor, at lets say $35/hour for a fabricator, is almost $300 in salary alone.

Everyone has to decide for themselves who they want to pay for making their products.

And keep in mind that 'cheap' here is not going to be 'cheap' where it's made - money has different value in different places.

-scheherazade
Appreciate 0
      09-10-2009, 04:05 PM   #36
ar design
ar design's Avatar
United_States
89
Rep
4,411
Posts

 
Drives: 04 M3
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Denver, CO

iTrader: (9)

Send a message via AIM to ar design
Quote:
Originally Posted by scheherazade View Post
UR is a great example of pricing...



UR apparently thinks a down pipe should cost $150 per tube...
That's what a single pipe evo down pipe costs.
In URs defense, the Evo downpipe looks a bit simpler, and does not have the V-Band flange. Getting those flanges cut is NOT cheap
__________________
-Critter
Appreciate 0
      09-10-2009, 04:09 PM   #37
vbmw335
Second Lieutenant
vbmw335's Avatar
5
Rep
263
Posts

 
Drives: BMW 335i Coupe
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: on the moon

iTrader: (0)

How about Walmart? Majority of their products are made in China...but buying products from there feeds many US workers and communites.

Its a global world ...guys wake up!! The key is as long as the products add value , and delivers ...everyone wins. This debate never gets old...its been on for a century now...lol
__________________
335i coupe Procede
700 HP EPL Tuned Porsche 911 Turbo
E46 M3 SMG
BMW X5 4.8 is

Last edited by vbmw335; 09-10-2009 at 04:25 PM.
Appreciate 0
      09-10-2009, 04:22 PM   #38
scheherazade
Major
17
Rep
1,467
Posts

 
Drives: 09 GTR (& 93' accord!)
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: DC metro area

iTrader: (8)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ar design View Post
In URs defense, the Evo downpipe looks a bit simpler, and does not have the V-Band flange. Getting those flanges cut is NOT cheap
Not $150 vs $300 dollars simpler.

Case in point :

Perrin STI downpipe
- High Flow Cat ($cha-ching$)
- Complicated mating end ($cha-ching$)

http://www.jscspeed.com/wrx/uppipedo...wnpipe_cat.htm

$300 dollars per pipe.

Which brings it in-line with the cost of a *SINGLE* basic catless 335 DP.

-scheherazade
Appreciate 0
      09-10-2009, 04:27 PM   #39
Vince@ V K Motorwerks
Lieutenant Colonel
Vince@ V K Motorwerks's Avatar
51
Rep
1,739
Posts

 
Drives: 01 Black 911 Turbo, 09 X5
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Bloomingdale, IL

iTrader: (0)

So this is now turning into buy American versus foreign products argument. People charge more with BMW stuff because they can. People will pay and that is fine. I guess we serve the people who dont wish to overpay.

The economy is tough, we just want to help out by saving people more money.
Appreciate 0
      09-10-2009, 04:43 PM   #40
mwahlert
Lieutenant Colonel
mwahlert's Avatar
29
Rep
1,556
Posts

 
Drives: 2008 335i
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Durham, NC

iTrader: (7)

Garage List
2007 335i  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vince@ V K Motorwerks View Post
So this is now turning into buy American versus foreign products argument. People charge more with BMW stuff because they can. People will pay and that is fine. I guess we serve the people who dont wish to overpay.

The economy is tough, we just want to help out by saving people more money.
this is exactly what i like about your company and what it stands for... not charging an arm and a leg because we drive bmws.... you make a product, make some money on it and still deliver it to us at a killer price..

no Bmw tax...
Appreciate 0
      09-10-2009, 05:02 PM   #41
Mike@N54Tuning.com
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor
Canada
479
Rep
15,032
Posts


 
Drives: 07335i
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Earth

iTrader: (88)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mwahlert View Post
this is exactly what i like about your company and what it stands for... not charging an arm and a leg because we drive bmws.... you make a product, make some money on it and still deliver it to us at a killer price..

no Bmw tax...
This assumes that all other vendors are price gauging because you drive a BMW which is not the case. ITs a FACT that things made in China are cheaper (i.e. money not quality) then made in Canada or the US. The quality issue is a whole different can of worms. It is true that a Chinese factory with the same know how and technology will most likely produce goods of similar quality, but thats if you can find a company like that in China which does not cut corners to make an extra buck.

Case in point. My good friend owns an aquarium store. It is cheaper to buy a 300 Gallon tank, have it put on a boat and shipped here then it is to go down the street and have a local company make it. The Chinese tank is slightly lower quality but costs 2/3 the price and its shipped from across the world...

Energy, labor, rent, cost of living, etc.. are higher here so the goods cost more.

Mike
__________________
LOWEST PRICE GURANTEE ON ALL PRODUCTS - www.n54tuning.com - Email; Mike@n54tuning.com
NEW PERFORMANCE LINE N54 DOWNPIPES & M3/M4 & F30 ER DOWNPIPES NOW IN STOCK - ER N54 CHARPE PIPE SPECIALS - NEW JB4 G5 ISO for N54 and F30 N55 ON SALE - NEW S55 M3/M4 JB4 NOW SHIPPING
Appreciate 0
      09-10-2009, 05:03 PM   #42
scheherazade
Major
17
Rep
1,467
Posts

 
Drives: 09 GTR (& 93' accord!)
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: DC metro area

iTrader: (8)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vince@ V K Motorwerks View Post
So this is now turning into buy American versus foreign products argument.
I only want people to "know what they are paying for".

Businesses run how they like to run (everyone has different overhead).
People have to live and work everywhere.
Support who you want to support, don't feel pressured.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vince@ V K Motorwerks View Post
People charge more with BMW stuff because they can. People will pay and that is fine. I guess we serve the people who dont wish to overpay.

The economy is tough, we just want to help out by saving people more money.
Translated :
BMW has more drivers with money to burn.
VK fills in the market for the scrooges among us.









Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
This assumes that all other vendors are price gauging because you drive a BMW which is not the case.

...

Mike
I totally agree.
Each company is adding some value.
AR has a longer 3" section - wider pulse diffusion
CP-E has a more rounded cast hotside mate - more gradual gas flow direction change @ hotside.

As a customer, you have to weigh the value added against the price, and decide for yourself if it's worth it.
Especially when some of the product differences are imperceptible without some 3rd party performance measurement.

Can your but dyno tell between 350 and 360 hp?
If not, is it worth another $300 bucks?



BMW tax wise...
If you look at the STI/EVO DPs I linked, regardless of why (good reasons or bad), you'd have to be loony to not see that the price difference is night and day.


-scheherazade

Last edited by scheherazade; 09-10-2009 at 05:53 PM.
Appreciate 0
      09-10-2009, 06:45 PM   #43
Kroy
Brigadier General
Kroy's Avatar
United_States
39
Rep
3,035
Posts

 
Drives: E90
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Los Angeles, CA

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
This assumes that all other vendors are price gauging because you drive a BMW which is not the case. ITs a FACT that things made in China are cheaper (i.e. money not quality) then made in Canada or the US. The quality issue is a whole different can of worms. It is true that a Chinese factory with the same know how and technology will most likely produce goods of similar quality, but thats if you can find a company like that in China which does not cut corners to make an extra buck.

Case in point. My good friend owns an aquarium store. It is cheaper to buy a 300 Gallon tank, have it put on a boat and shipped here then it is to go down the street and have a local company make it. The Chinese tank is slightly lower quality but costs 2/3 the price and its shipped from across the world...

Energy, labor, rent, cost of living, etc.. are higher here so the goods cost more.

Mike


I can't find any flaw in that statement. Quality is dependent on the vendor not the country of origin. As a Chinese print broker, I know there are good factories in China amongst all the shady bad ones (otherwise I'd be out of a job). As long as VK keeps a close watch and QC, it shouldn't matter where their product comes from. It could be produced in the underwater city of Atlantis for all I care.

Also, those who participated in the DP GB really did pay more than the $350 JK charged for their product. They also paid in time. I think some of them waited upwards 5 months for their DP. It's always a tradeoff.

I really don't get what there is to argue when comparing American/foreign made products. Shouldn't the bottom line be all that matters?

By the way, if you think about the price difference between AR and VK and account for the fact that the average laborer gets paid less than $500/mo USD, pricing makes sense. There's no proof to back up my next statement, but I think there will be less than 2hp difference between AR and VK. VK will probably be slightly lower in quality, but I think it'll be well within the acceptable ranges.
Appreciate 0
      09-10-2009, 06:46 PM   #44
packinDSS
Lead Foot
packinDSS's Avatar
10
Rep
404
Posts

 
Drives: 2007 BMW 335i Sedan
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: North Jersey

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by cstavaru View Post
I don't think that some catless downpipes design can bring more horepower gains than another. These are some 30cm PIPES, not rockets. They all have the same shape, and even if some of them are larger at the beginning for a few centimeters, its useless because the exhaust has 2.5". Maybe its even worse because there can be gas turbulences when the diameter goes abruptly from 3" to 2.5" creating unneeded backpressure.

The thing I would be concerned about is quality. If there are no leaks and the downpipes fit well and don't resonate or touch the car's body, its all good.

And I also think that a set of downpipes should not cost an arm and a leg, because if you get a full stainless steel exhaust with $1800, the downpipes should cost no more than $200.

Too bad the stock downpipes only sell with catalytic converters, because I think that the best downpipes would be the stock ones with the catalytic converter removed.

Take em off and hollow them out (did I saythat out loud)
Appreciate 0
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:24 AM.




e90post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST