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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > What the heck, Shiv & Terry fix bog at same time whos is better



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      09-15-2009, 06:08 PM   #1
Graystone
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What the heck, Shiv & Terry fix bog at same time whos is better

From the data they both put out showing bog fix.....can an expert explain in laymens terms who did what and witch seems to be the best .....
thanks to both
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      09-15-2009, 06:12 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Graystone View Post
From the data they both put out showing bog fix.....can an expert explain in laymens terms who did what and witch seems to be the best .....
thanks to both
Lol, both are good! Try and decide.
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      09-15-2009, 06:13 PM   #3
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LOLOL Nothing new, They always come out at the same time with updates...competition!

as for which is better on bogfix idk...ill let these mt guys decide..
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      09-15-2009, 06:24 PM   #4
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I'm down for a little same car/same day test with some datalogging. If Terry is game, let's make it happen

shiv
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      09-15-2009, 06:29 PM   #5
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Datalogging? Lets not get out of hand here!

This would only work if we fly lawdude out to oversee the process.
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      09-15-2009, 06:32 PM   #6
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^^Haha.
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      09-15-2009, 06:40 PM   #7
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The basic premise of the JB3 bogfix is very simple and based around replicating the automatics lightning quick full boost shifting.

Here is how it works:
1) Reduce or eliminate throttle closure during and post shift with smarter boost targeting. This eliminates the post shift bog we've lived with for so long.

2) During the shift position the wastegates in such a way to hold boost through the shift. The more closed they are, the more boost you hold. We are playing with different levels now to balance strong shifting with clutch longevity.

This is something that was being worked on prior to Shiv's throttle delay fix, and I can't comment to what he is doing differently. I will say the JB3 bogfix is working really well. This may just be a case of two methods to achieve the same objective.

Mike
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      09-15-2009, 06:50 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
I'm down for a little same car/same day test with some datalogging. If Terry is game, let's make it happen

shiv
Problem is, Terry doesn't own a 6MT
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      09-15-2009, 06:57 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by themyst View Post
Problem is, Terry doesn't own a 6MT
I'm not sure I follow. I was referring to testing both tunes on the same car. Presumably an unbiased third party. Just for fun, I'd even be willing to meet up with a Jb3 owner who has been running their version of "bogfix" and temporarily install our tune ust so they can see/report the differences

If anyone in the SF bay area fits this bill, PM me.

Cheers,
Shiv
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      09-15-2009, 06:58 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
I'm down for a little same car/same day test with some datalogging. If Terry is game, let's make it happen

shiv
Are you saying you've fixed the V3 so the BT cable works with it again?

Mike
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      09-15-2009, 07:01 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
Are you saying you've fixed the V3 so the BT cable works with it again?

Mike
oh come on Mike. Unfortunately, you can't run two CAN diagnostic tools on the same car (PROcede and BT Tool) at the same time. If not being able to use the same logging tool for both tunes is a deal-beaker, I'm sure we can find another way to prove/illustrate what approach does what. I believe you guys are still working on it so maybe such a test would be best left until its officially released. Ours will be released this week and it will be a user adjustable feature in the PROcede software.

Shiv
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      09-15-2009, 07:08 PM   #12
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why would he need a BT cable? The Procede datalogs just fine. I own both units and prefer the BT cable for code clearing and reading, but prefer the procede for datalogging.

I might be willing to test both but I can say the last rev8 I tested for the JB3 didnt have the "push" or bump feel that the procede did, and it supposedly incorporated a bogfix.
The procede "pops" when you shift. Its has an "acceleration" motion when the feature is activated. a Jump if you will. But the feature is only activated during certain conditions, which I cannot get into at this time. Shiv will devulge that info if he chooses.

I can't compare to any version of the JB3 1.4 other than rev 8.1
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      09-15-2009, 07:12 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
oh come on Mike. Unfortunately, you can't run two CAN diagnostic tools on the same car (PROcede and BT Tool) at the same time. If not being able to use the same logging tool for both tunes is a deal-beaker, I'm sure we can find another way to prove/illustrate what approach does what. I believe you guys are still working on it so maybe such a test would be best left until its officially released. Ours will be released this week and it will be a user adjustable feature in the PROcede software.

Shiv
I have no doubt we'll get to see plenty of JB3 1.4 beta R8.3 vs. PROCede beta 9/22/2009? races in the near future.

Another good test might be to do some multi-gear dyno pulls, and compare the power drop off during the shifts. Once your maps are done and published BMS will sponsor a test on their local dyno. There are plenty of manual customers down by them with both systems.

Mike
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      09-15-2009, 07:14 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Borsig View Post
why would he need a BT cable? The Procede datalogs just fine. I own both units and prefer the BT cable for code clearing and reading, but prefer the procede for datalogging.

I might be willing to test both but I can say the last rev8 I tested for the JB3 didnt have the "push" or bump feel that the procede did, and it supposedly incorporated a bogfix.
The procede "pops" when you shift. Its has an "acceler" motion when the feature is activated. a Jump if you will. But the feature is only activated during certain conditions, which I cannot get into at this time. Shiv will devulge that info if he chooses.

I can't compare to any version of the JB3 1.4 other than rev 8.1
That's perfectly fine with me. And you are correct. The PROcede update doesn't just eliminate or reduce the severity/frequency of the post-shift bog. It actually induces an NLS (no lift shift) feature of sorts. Where there is absolutely no acceleration loss during the shift. It's a very difference function that I think some people are thinking about. And I think the only way to demonstrate just how different they are is to have people test both tunes in their same car.

So far we have Borsig who may be game. Anyone else?

Cheers,
shiv
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      09-15-2009, 07:15 PM   #15
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watch out everyone!! this sounds like a BATTLE of the tuners lol or a friendly competition
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      09-15-2009, 07:20 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
That's perfectly fine with me. And you are correct. The PROcede update doesn't just eliminate or reduce the severity/frequency of the post-shift bog. It actually induces an NLS (no lift shift) feature of sorts. Where there is absolutely no acceleration loss during the shift. It's a very difference function that I think some people are thinking about. And I think the only way to demonstrate just how different they are is to have people test both tunes in their same car.

So far we have Borsig who may be game. Anyone else?

Cheers,
shiv
As everyone knows, terry has my box right now.. When he finishes with it, and offically releases it I could do a test..

But the truth is, as shiv said its a feel thing for sure... The Procede fix is something you need to drive to understand. As I told shiv today after testing it. "It takes some getting used to- Its suprising if you arent ready for it".
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      09-15-2009, 07:20 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
Presumably an unbiased third party.


Not likely around here.
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      09-15-2009, 07:35 PM   #18
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Quote:
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Not likely around here.
I don't agree with that at all. I think there is a vast silent minority on this forum that just wants their car to drive as quickly, nicely and as safely as possible. And couldn't care one bit how this was achieved. The problem occurs when such people post their findings and get blasted by fanboys an accused of unfairfy disclosing information. It's stupid and everyone loses out in the end. So the more same car/same day tunes we can do, the better. I'm always down for it.

Shiv
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      09-15-2009, 08:05 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
That's perfectly fine with me. And you are correct. The PROcede update doesn't just eliminate or reduce the severity/frequency of the post-shift bog. It actually induces an NLS (no lift shift) feature of sorts. Where there is absolutely no acceleration loss during the shift. It's a very difference function that I think some people are thinking about. And I think the only way to demonstrate just how different they are is to have people test both tunes in their same car.

So far we have Borsig who may be game. Anyone else?

Cheers,
shiv


No Lift Shift?

Is that like taking throttle control for a moment on clutch depression and freezing RPM during the shift?

-scheherazade
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      09-15-2009, 08:20 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scheherazade View Post
No Lift Shift?

Is that like taking throttle control for a moment on clutch depression and freezing RPM during the shift?

-scheherazade
NLS is a system that kills or severely retards ignition/spark timing the point of clutch depression. This reduces engine torque enough for the gear change to take place. Since torque is reduced through ignition control, there is no need to lift off the throttle. What this does is allow the turbos to keep spooled and keeps the bypass valves/bovs to dumping boost. This eliminates the post-shift spool up time that would otherwise occur.

With CANbus integration, we can finally monitor things like clutch position, actual throttle position, etc,. And unlike the competition, we can actually control timing. So we can implement a serious feature. Not just an enhancement to boost control. Compare to traditional NLS, there are a few minor differences in activation thresholds and what is going one during the shift, but the end result is the same:

Little or no throttle closure and no bypass valve dumping between the gears.

Of course, the tricky part was to integrate this very serious feature in a way that wouldn't surprise or scare the user. So we put some carefully thought-out triggers so that this feature would activate as a function of shift speed. So if you shift slow, it will barely work. But when you shift FAST, the effect is downright startling

Shiv
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      09-15-2009, 08:21 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
I have no doubt we'll get to see plenty of JB3 1.4 beta R8.3 vs. PROCede beta 9/22/2009? races in the near future.

Another good test might be to do some multi-gear dyno pulls, and compare the power drop off during the shifts. Once your maps are done and published BMS will sponsor a test on their local dyno. There are plenty of manual customers down by them with both systems.

Mike
Mike, not sure if you have actually driven a dyno, but the last thing you want to do is a very quick shift. The rollers have so much inertia that they will not accelerate quick enough and the car will try to jump forward and/or spin the tyres on the dyno. Not only is this unsafe, but the dyno will not accurately read the power difference as it can only respond to the rollers and the rollers did not respond... the car position/tyre slip did.

The best way to get some objective results is datalogging. This way the driver can also be monitored to make sure they are are changing gears in the same way and not effecting the results by going easier on the gear change on one tune.

As long as enough and the correct channels are logged, datalogs are the great equaliser, as any funny business is immediately evident in the logged data.

It would need to be done on the same car since mods can effect the turbo spool also.

As the Procede can actually view the DBW throttle position, it does have a distinct advantage in implementing this feature. It would certainly be interesting to see if a non-CAN approach can match or better it.
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      09-15-2009, 08:21 PM   #22
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Shiv, with all the recent developments in the Procede, can you comment on drivability of the procede on track (those with curves)? Have you tried it recently on track?

Thanks!
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