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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > What the heck, Shiv & Terry fix bog at same time whos is better



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      09-15-2009, 08:57 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
NLS is a system that kills or severely retards ignition/spark timing the point of clutch depression. This reduces engine torque enough for the gear change to take place. Since torque is reduced through ignition control, there is no need to lift off the throttle. What this does is allow the turbos to keep spooled and keeps the bypass valves/bovs to dumping boost. This eliminates the post-shift spool up time that would otherwise occur.

With CANbus integration, we can finally monitor things like clutch position, actual throttle position, etc,. And unlike the competition, we can actually control timing. So we can implement a serious feature. Not just an enhancement to boost control. Compare to traditional NLS, there are a few minor differences in activation thresholds and what is going one during the shift, but the end result is the same:

Little or no throttle closure and no bypass valve dumping between the gears.

Of course, the tricky part was to integrate this very serious feature in a way that wouldn't surprise or scare the user. So we put some carefully thought-out triggers so that this feature would activate as a function of shift speed. So if you shift slow, it will barely work. But when you shift FAST, the effect is downright startling

Shiv
Very exciting stuff............
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      09-15-2009, 09:13 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenneth View Post
Shiv, with all the recent developments in the Procede, can you comment on drivability of the procede on track (those with curves)? Have you tried it recently on track?
Thanks!
That actually sounds kind of fun. Sameday track sessions swapping out hardware and datalogging the whole thing and video.
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      09-15-2009, 09:14 PM   #25
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Can't wait to see some real-world JB3/Procede comparisons!
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      09-15-2009, 09:37 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenneth View Post
Shiv, with all the recent developments in the Procede, can you comment on drivability of the procede on track (those with curves)? Have you tried it recently on track?

Thanks!
Real good. Ultimately, you will probably want to adjust Throttle Response to suit your preferences. At 5, power can be very explosive which can be an issue when running street tires and/or without an LSD. I suspect most people will drop it down to 3-4 in roadracing trim.

Oh, the Throttle Delay Fix will surprise you

Shiv
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      09-15-2009, 09:58 PM   #27
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America's Best 3-Series Tuners. JB3 vs PROCEDE vs GIAC. Looks like GIAC will have to come back another day.
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      09-15-2009, 10:10 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
Real good. Ultimately, you will probably want to adjust Throttle Response to suit your preferences. At 5, power can be very explosive which can be an issue when running street tires and/or without an LSD. I suspect most people will drop it down to 3-4 in roadracing trim.

Oh, the Throttle Delay Fix will surprise you

Shiv
On track you would normally shift on a straight, so no need to dial it down to 3-4 right?

If one is lazy to datalog, what setting would you run if you only had DCI, upgraded IC and extra OC. Stage 1 or 2?
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      09-15-2009, 10:21 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adrian@vishnu View Post
Mike, not sure if you have actually driven a dyno, but the last thing you want to do is a very quick shift. The rollers have so much inertia that they will not accelerate quick enough and the car will try to jump forward and/or spin the tyres on the dyno. Not only is this unsafe, but the dyno will not accurately read the power difference as it can only respond to the rollers and the rollers did not respond... the car position/tyre slip did.

The best way to get some objective results is datalogging. This way the driver can also be monitored to make sure they are are changing gears in the same way and not effecting the results by going easier on the gear change on one tune.

As long as enough and the correct channels are logged, datalogs are the great equaliser, as any funny business is immediately evident in the logged data.

It would need to be done on the same car since mods can effect the turbo spool also.

As the Procede can actually view the DBW throttle position, it does have a distinct advantage in implementing this feature. It would certainly be interesting to see if a non-CAN approach can match or better it.

Hi Adrian,

The dyno seems like the best option.

Neither a BT or V3 datalog is going to show us how much boost is being held through shifts, only whether or not the throttle blade is open, and what the boost level is in front of the throttle body. It's also not going to show how smoothly that boost is being applied. Doing full 1/4 mile passes on the dyno is very common and a great way to troubleshoot shifting related issues. This goes without saying but datalogs will also be captured to correlate to the runs.

Is it possible to enable the V3 to log via the BT cable? This would greatly simplify things. Many relevant parameters are blocked out / not viewable in the V3, like target boost. Also since TPS is being sampled directly it won't have the same latency you would see picking that signal off the filtered CANbus.

Mike
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      09-15-2009, 10:32 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenneth View Post
On track you would normally shift on a straight, so no need to dial it down to 3-4 right?

If one is lazy to datalog, what setting would you run if you only had DCI, upgraded IC and extra OC. Stage 1 or 2?
It's all going to be personal preference. But when it comes to driving on road course, most of the fun comes from adapting your driving (inputs) to your car. My suggest is to just run a stg 1 map at the default settings. Max power isn't a priority on the road course. In fact, when your doing sustained hot lapping for 20 min session, it's definitely NOT the goal

Shiv
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      09-15-2009, 10:42 PM   #31
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If you need a car to perform the test on, I'll volunteer. I live in Portland, but could drive down to SF for the weekend.

My car is mostly stock, especially compared to many around here. Riss OCC and Rix boost gauge are the only things I have close to engine mods. Let me know if you need a test car!
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      09-15-2009, 10:43 PM   #32
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i dont even know why i read these long threads.. both are great tunes, but its disgusting reading the trash talk.

both companies make a great product that makes kick azz power.. would be nice to check the forums to find a thread worth reading, that is new, and not the same old crap..

koodus to the procede and jb3.. way to strive to improve
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      09-15-2009, 10:51 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mooreski View Post
If you need a car to perform the test on, I'll volunteer. I live in Portland, but could drive down to SF for the weekend.

My car is mostly stock, especially compared to many around here. Riss OCC and Rix boost gauge are the only things I have close to engine mods. Let me know if you need a test car!
We have plenty of test cars at our disposal. But if you want to do a little taste test between the two current jb an procede offerings, I'll be happy to do my part. Maybe Mike@n54tuning can help on the jb3 side of things. Mike?

shiv
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      09-15-2009, 10:55 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
It's all going to be personal preference. But when it comes to driving on road course, most of the fun comes from adapting your driving (inputs) to your car. My suggest is to just run a stg 1 map at the default settings. Max power isn't a priority on the road course. In fact, when your doing sustained hot lapping for 20 min session, it's definitely NOT the goal

Shiv
True, true, but corner exit takes foreeeeeveeeer when you are stock.........those tuned GTis keep passing me on the straights.
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      09-15-2009, 10:55 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
Hi Adrian,

The dyno seems like the best option.

Neither a BT or V3 datalog is going to show us how much boost is being held through shifts, only whether or not the throttle blade is open, and what the boost level is in front of the throttle body. It's also not going to show how smoothly that boost is being applied. Doing full 1/4 mile passes on the dyno is very common and a great way to troubleshoot shifting related issues. This goes without saying but datalogs will also be captured to correlate to the runs.

Is it possible to enable the V3 to log via the BT cable? This would greatly simplify things. Many relevant parameters are blocked out / not viewable in the V3, like target boost. Also since TPS is being sampled directly it won't have the same latency you would see picking that signal off the filtered CANbus.

Mike
Perhaps the dynos common over there are different to what I use in Australia. I certainly would not want to do a shift as hard and fast as I can on a Dyno Dynamics or Mainline dyno which is common over here.

Although Boost will read differently on the manifold side of the throttle body to the FMIC side of the throttle body, it will be within 1-2psi once the throttle is above about 70%. So if were to log the DBW throttle position and the pre throttle boost, we would have a good idea of what the boost is downstream of the throttle. If the bogfix is working correctly on both tunes, the actual time the throttle is closed will be very short. I know this is the case with the Procede. There are inidcators that will tell how fast the turbo is spinnning during the change... the slower the turbo is going, the lower the boost will be immediately after the throttle opens when the engine starts consuming boost gain.

With the CAN bus, some parameters are broadcast on the CAN bus and do not require the diagnostic system to access. This is generally data used by other modules like the display cluster etc. Other parameters can only be accessed via the diagnostic interface. Unfortunately only the BT or Procede can use this interface at once... not both. Some of the recent features are reliant on this data, so therefore we could not run these features if we allow the BT to take the diagnostic interface. At any rate, the Procede logs quicker and for most CAN parameters is recording exactly the same information (the only exception being one ignition parameter that records the actual ignition with Procede CAS effect), so I am confident that you could log JB with BT and Procede with its own logging and compare the results.

Adrian
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      09-16-2009, 01:07 AM   #36
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sry, but what is "bogfix"???
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      09-16-2009, 02:18 AM   #37
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man if this NLS system works anywhere near as the WOT box my friend uses on his stage3 srt4 in HOM/METH then it will be awesome! i've been waiting for you to do something like this shiv! since my friend did it with his car not long ago...i would jump ahead, then hold, then get passed ~110mph...now..i shoot ahead in 2nd and before i reach 100mph he is passing me.

it will be interesting now because alot of his gain would be during that shift at ~100-105. he runs 12.1@116-119 shifting slow because his clutch would slip...now he has a sweet clutch and will break traction in 3rd at 40mph... so we'll see how it goes! this is looking up shiv!
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      09-16-2009, 04:01 AM   #38
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      09-16-2009, 06:01 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adrian@vishnu View Post
Perhaps the dynos common over there are different to what I use in Australia. I certainly would not want to do a shift as hard and fast as I can on a Dyno Dynamics or Mainline dyno which is common over here.

Although Boost will read differently on the manifold side of the throttle body to the FMIC side of the throttle body, it will be within 1-2psi once the throttle is above about 70%. So if were to log the DBW throttle position and the pre throttle boost, we would have a good idea of what the boost is downstream of the throttle. If the bogfix is working correctly on both tunes, the actual time the throttle is closed will be very short. I know this is the case with the Procede. There are inidcators that will tell how fast the turbo is spinnning during the change... the slower the turbo is going, the lower the boost will be immediately after the throttle opens when the engine starts consuming boost gain.

With the CAN bus, some parameters are broadcast on the CAN bus and do not require the diagnostic system to access. This is generally data used by other modules like the display cluster etc. Other parameters can only be accessed via the diagnostic interface. Unfortunately only the BT or Procede can use this interface at once... not both. Some of the recent features are reliant on this data, so therefore we could not run these features if we allow the BT to take the diagnostic interface. At any rate, the Procede logs quicker and for most CAN parameters is recording exactly the same information (the only exception being one ignition parameter that records the actual ignition with Procede CAS effect), so I am confident that you could log JB with BT and Procede with its own logging and compare the results.

Adrian
On the logging, the BT will not capture actual boost, only the modified boost signal. I suppose a DAQ could be used but that is a little out of my expertise. Scalbert?

Mike
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      09-16-2009, 07:09 AM   #40
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Bogfix

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robmaster View Post
sry, but what is "bogfix"???
Bogfix is the remedy to when u shift real fast and in between gears you have a hesitation (drop in boost). This is for 6mt only and a source of much hate in the n54 community.
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      09-16-2009, 07:11 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
On the logging, the BT will not capture actual boost, only the modified boost signal. I suppose a DAQ could be used but that is a little out of my expertise. Scalbert?

Mike
The actual level is not as important as when it returns to what it was before the gear change. This is more about the timing of events then the levels of them.

Adrian
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      09-16-2009, 08:05 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
I'm down for a little same car/same day test with some datalogging. If Terry is game, let's make it happen

shiv
I'd love to see a neutral third-party head-to-head comparison! This is the best way to get a true fair comparison without the theoretical back-and-forth that can go on forever.
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      09-16-2009, 08:21 AM   #43
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Mike,

Please post your logs as well as mine. The throttle applied versus the actual value outstanding!
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      09-16-2009, 08:37 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1000 View Post
Mike,

Please post your logs as well as mine. The throttle applied versus the actual value outstanding!
I posted in the other thread, but here it is for you

Attached is a datalog from a little testing tonight. This shows how quickly the throttle blade (blue line) is following the pedal input (purple line). What you can't see on this log, or any log unfortunately, is how much boost is being held through the shifts. But trust me its plenty, I was getting very sideways during shifts. Will need to rig up a camera and videotape the boost gauge for that one.


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