E90Post
 


PYSPEED
 
BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > What the heck, Shiv & Terry fix bog at same time whos is better



Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      09-16-2009, 10:19 AM   #45
stressdoc
Moderator
 
stressdoc's Avatar
 
Drives: F80 YMB
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: MO

Posts: 10,127
iTrader: (0)

Fwiw, BMW did a ton of R&D on problems with pressure changes in the turbos during MT shifts.
stressdoc is offline   Dominica
0
Reply With Quote
      09-16-2009, 10:20 AM   #46
Mike@N54Tuning.com
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor

 
Drives: 07335i
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Earth

Posts: 14,704
iTrader: (87)

Quote:
Originally Posted by adrian@vishnu View Post
The actual level is not as important as when it returns to what it was before the gear change. This is more about the timing of events then the levels of them.

Adrian
The replicated TMAP signal will not tell you what the boost is doing during and immediately post shift. You really need to capture actual boost at the manifold level. With the BT we could monitor the manifold sensor which reads up to around 3psi, and at a minimum we should not see that value drop during a shift. The BT gives much more flexibility in terms of testing like this.

Mike
__________________
LOWEST PRICE GURANTEE ON ALL PRODUCTS - www.n54tuning.com - Email; Mike@n54tuning.com
NEW PERFORMANCE LINE N54 DOWNPIPES & M3/M4 & F30 ER DOWNPIPES NOW IN STOCK - ER N54 CHARPE PIPE SPECIALS - NEW JB4 G5 ISO for N54 and F30 N55 ON SALE
Mike@N54Tuning.com is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      09-16-2009, 10:51 AM   #47
Kelvin1000
Major
 
Drives: 2008 E92 335i Space Gray
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Miami, FL

Posts: 1,190
iTrader: (4)

The logs look just like mine mike:



It feels as good as it looks! Absolutely no lag or hesitation during shifts at all. I was plotting in excel and thought I was doing something wrong because of how well they match up.

Bogfix FTW!!!
Kelvin1000 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      09-16-2009, 11:16 AM   #48
shiv@vishnu
Tuner
 
Drives: X1, 335i
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: SF Bay, CA

Posts: 17,616
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
The replicated TMAP signal will not tell you what the boost is doing during and immediately post shift. You really need to capture actual boost at the manifold level. With the BT we could monitor the manifold sensor which reads up to around 3psi, and at a minimum we should not see that value drop during a shift. The BT gives much more flexibility in terms of testing like this.

Mike
Sometimes I think that we argue for the sake of argument. You/Terry often "agree" to comparison tests of some sort yet always requests testing methods that you know we cannot comply too for technical reasons. As Adrian mentioned earlier, the BT tool and the PROcede (when not in valet mode) cannot be used at the same time due to CANbus related limitations. I find it odd how this is represented as a flaw in the PROcede when we are using that useful CANbus data (clutch position, actual throttle, temps, advance, etc,.) as inputs for the tune. Which, might I add, is why the PROcede drives like it does. It just has more info to operate with which ultimately gives it higher tuning potential.

Furthermore, there's no point in reading/logging the manifold pressure sensor when it only reads up to 3-4psi. Especially when we are seeing 9-11psi of boost (manifold pressure) minimum during the shift.

If you are serious about comparing our two features in a proper test, let's do it. But please drop the imposed testing constraints when you know they are unreasonable/impossible to meet. If it means that our system would have to be logged by the PROcede software and your system would have to be logged by the BT software, so be it. I believe our CANbus logging operates at a higher sampling rate which I'd be willing to ignore just for the sake of getting this test done.

Shiv
shiv@vishnu is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      09-16-2009, 11:22 AM   #49
inthemiddle
Lieutenant
 
Drives: BMW
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Somewhere

Posts: 467
iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
NLS is a system that kills or severely retards ignition/spark timing the point of clutch depression. This reduces engine torque enough for the gear change to take place. Since torque is reduced through ignition control, there is no need to lift off the throttle. What this does is allow the turbos to keep spooled and keeps the bypass valves/bovs to dumping boost. This eliminates the post-shift spool up time that would otherwise occur.

With CANbus integration, we can finally monitor things like clutch position, actual throttle position, etc,. And unlike the competition, we can actually control timing. So we can implement a serious feature. Not just an enhancement to boost control. Compare to traditional NLS, there are a few minor differences in activation thresholds and what is going one during the shift, but the end result is the same:

Little or no throttle closure and no bypass valve dumping between the gears.

Of course, the tricky part was to integrate this very serious feature in a way that wouldn't surprise or scare the user. So we put some carefully thought-out triggers so that this feature would activate as a function of shift speed. So if you shift slow, it will barely work. But when you shift FAST, the effect is downright startling

Shiv
Wait.. so you are turning my 6MT into almost a flappy paddle ?? hahah.. just kidding....

sounds great..... it also sounds like it might make BOV's not so loud/stupid sounding .... i look forward to it for that too...... a BOV makes the car sound like a damn Evo or WRX (hahhah sorry shiv... no offense... i had a wrx a while back too..)

... but seriously... this sounds so cool for so many reasons !!!

Last edited by inthemiddle; 09-16-2009 at 11:44 AM.
inthemiddle is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      09-16-2009, 11:56 AM   #50
Mike@N54Tuning.com
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor

 
Drives: 07335i
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Earth

Posts: 14,704
iTrader: (87)

Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
Sometimes I think that we argue for the sake of argument. You/Terry often "agree" to comparison tests of some sort yet always requests testing methods that you know we cannot comply too for technical reasons. As Adrian mentioned earlier, the BT tool and the PROcede (when not in valet mode) cannot be used at the same time due to CANbus related limitations. I find it odd how this is represented as a flaw in the PROcede when we are using that useful CANbus data (clutch position, actual throttle, temps, advance, etc,.) as inputs for the tune. Which, might I add, is why the PROcede drives like it does. It just has more info to operate with which ultimately gives it higher tuning potential.

Furthermore, there's no point in reading/logging the manifold pressure sensor when it only reads up to 3-4psi. Especially when we are seeing 9-11psi of boost (manifold pressure) minimum during the shift.

If you are serious about comparing our two features in a proper test, let's do it. But please drop the imposed testing constraints when you know they are unreasonable/impossible to meet. If it means that our system would have to be logged by the PROcede software and your system would have to be logged by the BT software, so be it. I believe our CANbus logging operates at a higher sampling rate which I'd be willing to ignore just for the sake of getting this test done.

Shiv
To analyze boost through the shift you need to read manifold boost. There is no other signal that will give that information. Reading the TMAP signal going back to the ECU certainly won't, that will only show what the ECU wants to see. Reading the raw TMAP value may get close but its still subject to variance with throttle closure. Neither the V3 or the BT is equipped to log this one which is why you made a video of your mechanical boost gauge instead. The dyno makes the most sense to me, but really a few videos of V3 customers and JB3 customers with equal mods/octane/maps racing is just as good and probably more fun.

Myself and JB3 customers have already posted logs showing instant throttle response on the 2->3 and 3>4. The only item left is how much boost we want to hold through shifts, and we're trying different things now. Too much may break something, but too little lets the DVs blow open. The sweet-spot may be around 7psi, but we'll see.

I might add that the type of DV valves/springs/BOV used will greatly impact how much boost is being held through he shift as well. Tighter springs will hold more boost than stock DVs.

Mike
__________________
LOWEST PRICE GURANTEE ON ALL PRODUCTS - www.n54tuning.com - Email; Mike@n54tuning.com
NEW PERFORMANCE LINE N54 DOWNPIPES & M3/M4 & F30 ER DOWNPIPES NOW IN STOCK - ER N54 CHARPE PIPE SPECIALS - NEW JB4 G5 ISO for N54 and F30 N55 ON SALE

Last edited by Mike@N54Tuning.com; 09-16-2009 at 01:12 PM.
Mike@N54Tuning.com is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      09-16-2009, 12:16 PM   #51
Dubbedoutbimmer
Banned
 
Drives: 335XI Coupe Loaded w/body kit
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Boston

Posts: 1,313
iTrader: (-1)

Send a message via AIM to Dubbedoutbimmer
Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterSkiMask View Post


Not likely around here.
well actualy I would love to help you fellas out I have a 08 e92XI 6MT
I am actually just borrowing a JB3 from a friend while his car is in the shop to see what it is like. I have been on the fence for about a year now and would welcome a opportunity to do a fair non biased comparison. the only issue is I am in the Boston area. but if you fella want to ship out the boxs I will record the whole process in HD and dyno test both along with road test. I also have the BMW performance wheel in my car so I can read the G-Forces and temps quickly. so let me know if I can be of service......OH AND THE WINNER GETS MY BUSINESS so that means I will only be shipping one system back and paying for the other. oh and as a free bonus I own a marketing, Photgraphy, and Modeling company so I will be doing a spread on my car once the new site is up and will be covering all my mods. so said winner will get a article write up on my website and be included in my monthly news letter (email)
Dubbedoutbimmer is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      09-16-2009, 12:18 PM   #52
shiv@vishnu
Tuner
 
Drives: X1, 335i
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: SF Bay, CA

Posts: 17,616
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
To analyze boost through the shift you need to read manifold boost. There is no other signal that will give that information. Reading the TMAP signal going back to the ECU certainly won't, that will only show what the ECU wants to see. Reading the raw TMAP value may get close but its still subject to variance with throttle closure. Neither the V3 or the BT is equipped to log this one which is why you made a video of your mechanical boost gauge instead. The dyno makes the most sense to me, but really a few videos of V3 customers and JB3 customers with equal mods/octane/maps racing is just as good and probably more fun.
Heck Mike, a simple video of an analog boost gauge during a run would be fine if all you want to test is min boost during a shift. I've done transmission/shift testing on inertial dynos before and it's not something I would recommend to our customers.

Quote:
Myself and JB3 customers have already posted logs showing instant throttle response on the 2->3 and 3>4. The only item left is how much boost we want to hold through shifts, and we're trying different things now. Too much may break something, but too little lets the DVs blow open. The sweet-spot may be around 7psi, but we'll see.
Blow off/Bypass valves operate on a pretty simple principle. There is a spring loaded diaphragm. The top of the diaphragm sees post-TB manifold pressure/vacuum. The bottom sees pre-TB intercooler pipe pressure (never vacuum). Under WOT when the TB is open, there is equal pressure on both sides of the diaphragm so it says nice and shut. However, when the throttle closes, the bottom of the diaphragm sees a spike in pressure while the top of the diagram sees a reduction in pressure. It is this pressure differential that opens the valves and allows the air to vent.

The key to keeping the bypass valves from discharging air during the shift is to twofold:

1) Keep intercooler pipe pressure from spiking as a result of the inevitable throttle closure.

2) Keep enough pressure to the top of the diaphragm to keep it sealed.

But there's yet another key to making your DME actually accept this condition. And that has to do with being able to induce a appropriate ignition timing adjustment during the upshift event. If you don't have the ability to do this, your actual "sweet spot" will be lower than it could otherwise be.

Shiv
shiv@vishnu is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      09-16-2009, 12:19 PM   #53
shiv@vishnu
Tuner
 
Drives: X1, 335i
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: SF Bay, CA

Posts: 17,616
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dubbedoutbimmer View Post
well actualy I would love to help you fellas out I have a 08 e92XI 6MT
I am actually just borrowing a JB3 from a friend while his car is in the shop to see what it is like. I have been on the fence for about a year now and would welcome a opportunity to do a fair non biased comparison. the only issue is I am in the Boston area. but if you fella want to ship out the boxs I will record the whole process in HD and dyno test both along with road test. I also have the BMW performance wheel in my car so I can read the G-Forces and temps quickly. so let me know if I can be of service......OH AND THE WINNER GETS MY BUSINESS so that means I will only be shipping one system back and paying for the other. oh and as a free bonus I own a marketing, Photgraphy, and Modeling company so I will be doing a spread on my car once the new site is up and will be covering all my mods. so said winner will get a article write up on my website and be included in my monthly news letter (email)
I'm game PM me your phone number.

Shiv
shiv@vishnu is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      09-16-2009, 12:23 PM   #54
jippii ensio
Major
 
Drives: 335i
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: On the road

Posts: 1,209
iTrader: (0)

Datalog a mid 11s run and post time slip & logs about boost, speed and throttle dbw & actual. Adding video of the run would be a plus.
No butt dynos or opinions please.
jippii ensio is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      09-16-2009, 12:25 PM   #55
Dubbedoutbimmer
Banned
 
Drives: 335XI Coupe Loaded w/body kit
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Boston

Posts: 1,313
iTrader: (-1)

Send a message via AIM to Dubbedoutbimmer
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr.roro View Post
I'd love to see a neutral third-party head-to-head comparison! This is the best way to get a true fair comparison without the theoretical back-and-forth that can go on forever.
I already made the offer now waiting for my hollywood contract
Dubbedoutbimmer is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      09-16-2009, 12:41 PM   #56
per
Lieutenant
 
Drives: M3 E92
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Sweden Gothenburg

Posts: 497
iTrader: (0)

Shiv, do you think the new map could solve the boost lag all DCT owners have, after using kick down or downshifting.
__________________
M3 E92 ESS VT-625
per is offline   Sweden
0
Reply With Quote
      09-16-2009, 12:59 PM   #57
shiv@vishnu
Tuner
 
Drives: X1, 335i
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: SF Bay, CA

Posts: 17,616
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by per View Post
Shiv, do you think the new map could solve the boost lag all DCT owners have, after using kick down or downshifting.
I suppose so. However, we'd have to adjust the triggering logic since you DCT guys don't actually lift off the gas pedal when you shift. We'd probably have to trigger the ON event using actual throttle which we can do with Rev.2 (canbus). It would be great if I can get my hands on a DCT n54'd vehicle here.

Do you have a rev.2 and can you take some logs for me?

Shiv
shiv@vishnu is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      09-16-2009, 01:13 PM   #58
Mike@N54Tuning.com
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor

 
Drives: 07335i
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Earth

Posts: 14,704
iTrader: (87)

Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu
Blow off/Bypass valves operate on a pretty simple principle. There is
a spring loaded diaphragm. The top of the diaphragm sees post-TB
manifold pressure/vacuum.
This does bring up another point, that your DV/BOV valve setting will greatly determine how much boost you are able to hold through the shift. The tighter the spring/setting, the easier it is to hold more boost through the shift.

Mike
__________________
LOWEST PRICE GURANTEE ON ALL PRODUCTS - www.n54tuning.com - Email; Mike@n54tuning.com
NEW PERFORMANCE LINE N54 DOWNPIPES & M3/M4 & F30 ER DOWNPIPES NOW IN STOCK - ER N54 CHARPE PIPE SPECIALS - NEW JB4 G5 ISO for N54 and F30 N55 ON SALE
Mike@N54Tuning.com is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      09-16-2009, 01:14 PM   #59
per
Lieutenant
 
Drives: M3 E92
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Sweden Gothenburg

Posts: 497
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
I suppose so. However, we'd have to adjust the triggering logic since you DCT guys don't actually lift off the gas pedal when you shift. We'd probably have to trigger the ON event using actual throttle which we can do with Rev.2 (canbus). It would be great if I can get my hands on a DCT n54'd vehicle here.

Do you have a rev.2 and can you take some logs for me?

Shiv
I will do some kick down logs in a couple of hours and mail them to you
__________________
M3 E92 ESS VT-625
per is offline   Sweden
0
Reply With Quote
      09-16-2009, 01:25 PM   #60
shiv@vishnu
Tuner
 
Drives: X1, 335i
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: SF Bay, CA

Posts: 17,616
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by per View Post
I will do some kick down logs in a couple of hours and mail them to you
Make sure you have CAN DBW throttle in there too. Might as well add Debug Word 3 and 4 while you are at it.

Shiv
shiv@vishnu is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      09-16-2009, 01:28 PM   #61
Nikolas
Colonel
 
Drives: 996 TT
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Sierra Mountains

Posts: 2,068
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
This does bring up another point, that your DV/BOV valve setting will greatly determine how much boost you are able to hold through the shift. The tighter the spring/setting, the easier it is to hold more boost through the shift.

Mike
Awesome, I'm running out the door with the vise grips now - OLD SCHOOL STYLE
Nikolas is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      09-16-2009, 01:47 PM   #62
shiv@vishnu
Tuner
 
Drives: X1, 335i
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: SF Bay, CA

Posts: 17,616
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
This does bring up another point, that your DV/BOV valve setting will greatly determine how much boost you are able to hold through the shift. The tighter the spring/setting, the easier it is to hold more boost through the shift.

Mike
Not really. The idea is to select a spring rate soft enough to prevent partial throttle surge. But stiff enough to keep it from lifting during cruise conditions (when vacuum is applied to the top of the diaphragm and atmos pressure or light boost is on the bottom.) Or does Terry still think the bottom of valve sees vacuum?

shiv
shiv@vishnu is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      09-16-2009, 01:53 PM   #63
Gen_E92
Brigadier General
 
Drives: slow
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Vancouver

Posts: 3,386
iTrader: (17)

Garage List
2007 335i  [3.90]
Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
Not really. The idea is to select a spring rate soft enough to prevent partial throttle surge. But stiff enough to keep it from lifting during cruise conditions (when vacuum is applied to the top of the diaphragm and atmos pressure or light boost is on the bottom.) Or does Terry still think the bottom of valve sees vacuum?

shiv
I know most ppl go with yellow springs...but if the green springs feels good on my stage 1 car, you think I should still change it? I was thinking green with spacers, but too lazy to do that lol...
Gen_E92 is offline   Japan
0
Reply With Quote
      09-16-2009, 02:00 PM   #64
Mike@N54Tuning.com
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor

 
Drives: 07335i
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Earth

Posts: 14,704
iTrader: (87)

Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
Not really. The idea is to select a spring rate soft enough to prevent partial throttle surge. But stiff enough to keep it from lifting during cruise conditions (when vacuum is applied to the top of the diaphragm and atmos pressure or light boost is on the bottom.) Or does Terry still think the bottom of valve sees vacuum?

shiv
So now you think its easier to keep the pressure differential under 4psi than it is to keep it under 6-10psi? LOL. For consistency in testing and to avoid funny business lets just agree to only use the stock diverter valves.

Mike
__________________
LOWEST PRICE GURANTEE ON ALL PRODUCTS - www.n54tuning.com - Email; Mike@n54tuning.com
NEW PERFORMANCE LINE N54 DOWNPIPES & M3/M4 & F30 ER DOWNPIPES NOW IN STOCK - ER N54 CHARPE PIPE SPECIALS - NEW JB4 G5 ISO for N54 and F30 N55 ON SALE
Mike@N54Tuning.com is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      09-16-2009, 02:01 PM   #65
jpsimon
Team Zissou
 
jpsimon's Avatar
 
Drives: 2015 STi
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: CT

Posts: 9,015
iTrader: (5)

Did Terry ever pick up a 6MT car?
__________________
2015 STi / 335xi (solid)
www.datazap.me - fast, free, interactive data log viewing

jpsimon is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      09-16-2009, 02:04 PM   #66
shiv@vishnu
Tuner
 
Drives: X1, 335i
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: SF Bay, CA

Posts: 17,616
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
So now you think its easier to keep the pressure differential under 4psi than it is to keep it under 6-10psi? LOL. For consistency in testing and to avoid funny business lets just agree to only use the stock diverter valves.

Mike
Mike-- What are you talking about?
shiv@vishnu is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:51 PM.




e90post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST